Ed Speaking in tongues

[pakeha]

It never ceases to amaze me that Fundies are often so ignorant of what the book they claim to follow actually says.

The thing is, dudalb, the book says many differing, even contradictory things.
For example, how does that passage you quoted ofActs make sense in light of Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians ?

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[g] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[h] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[j] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Acts and Paul seem to be speaking of different things altogether.

 

[Quinn]

In high school I dated a devout Pentecostal girl. (I know, go ahead an mock me, but noting her errors was what started me on the road to atheism.) She was totally down with the whole speaking-in-tongues thing, though I can't remember if she had ever done it herself.

Anyway, according to her it usually sounded like gibberish, but it could also be other earthly languages which the speaker didn't know. That was one way to know the phenomenon was a real gift from god and not just made up, she said. For instance there was a pastor who "received the spirit" in front of a Rabbi, who later complimented the pastor on his command of Hebrew -- but the pastor didn't know Hebrew, and had no idea he was speaking it. Of course when I asked her how she knew this story was true, her answer basically came down to "because the people I heard it from couldn't possibly be lying or mistaken."

Oh, and apparently the Baptists didn't do it or even recognize it. That was even the basis for a joke among her church peer group: What's the definition of a "Baptist kiss"? No tongues.

 

[mstricky]

I absolutely cannot believe how serious posters are on this thread. Tongues is so unbelievable and of people that have psychiatric problems. There is no such language. None of you believed my paranormal experiences but you believe this crap????????? Amazing

 

[mstricky]

I know someone who says she speaks in tongues, she also said the angel Gabriel came to her one night and told her what prayer to say at her cats funeral the day after... yeah right luv

 

[Akhenaten]

I absolutely cannot believe how serious posters are on this thread. Tongues is so unbelievable and of people that have psychiatric problems. There is no such language. None of you believed my paranormal experiences but you believe this crap????????? Amazing

You haven't actually read the thread, have you?

 

[Pup]

I absolutely cannot believe how serious posters are on this thread. Tongues is so unbelievable and of people that have psychiatric problems. There is no such language. None of you believed my paranormal experiences but you believe this crap????????? Amazing

Please link to a post in this thread where someone says they currently believe speaking in tongues is paranormal and/or inspired by god. I agree with Akhenaten: it doesn't appear as if you read the thread.

 

[Drewbot]

Frig, I just remembered, one of the parishoners would speak in Gibberish, and then another one would stand up and 'Translate' it.

Then the minister would say "Amen"

Neither parishoner 'spoke' the language in the gibberish. That was the hook.

 

[Hummer]

foophil--
I hear at least two "Obamas" in there.

Hummer

 

[tsig]

The thing is, dudalb, the book says many differing, even contradictory things.
For example, how does that passage you quoted ofActs make sense in light of Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians ?

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[g] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[h] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[j] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Acts and Paul seem to be speaking of different things altogether.

Paul just can't resist beating his own drum:

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

 

[tsig]

You haven't actually read the thread, have you?

possibly not even inhabiting the same reality.

 

[pakeha]

Paul just can't resist beating his own drum:

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Yeah.
Paul is in a class on his own, IMO.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well in my time I have meet a lot of people that have had interesting experiences. For example one that was able to speak Korean. Another is a case related to me by a visitor to Germany who spoke both English and German and saw a German speak in English, although the visitor subsequently learned that the speaker didn't understand it, what made that story more interesting is a second non-English speaker translated it back to German and got it right. Possibly one of the most famous ones in the case of Nicky Cruz (Cross and the Switchblade, and Run Baby, Run) who mainly spoke Spanish with only a little understanding of English, and yet one day when his translator took sick, he delivered his entire message in perfect English.

Of course they could all be lying.

 

[Olowkow]

Well in my time I have meet a lot of people that have had interesting experiences. For example one that was able to speak Korean. Another is a case related to me by a visitor to Germany who spoke both English and German and saw a German speak in English, although the visitor subsequently learned that the speaker didn't understand it, what made that story more interesting is a second non-English speaker translated it back to German and got it right. Possibly one of the most famous ones in the case of Nicky Cruz (Cross and the Switchblade, and Run Baby, Run) who mainly spoke Spanish with only a little understanding of English, and yet one day when his translator took sick, he delivered his entire message in perfect English.

Of course they could all be lying.

It's important to understand that, aside from some supernatural claim, no one can "speak a language" without having learned it. Now, whether he understands what he is saying when speaking is a different question. Many people can learn to sing in a foreign language and sound genuine with no clue of the meaning.

I am always amazed at how many people use the phrase "he speaks X language fluently" when they have no idea what the individual's proficiency is. Someone says, "buenos días", and right away, he "can speak Spanish."

I learned how to say "It's nice to meet you" in many languages, and I enjoy trying my best to get the accents as close to genuine as I can. In Russian, Приятно познакомиться, my pronunciation has elicited surprise from native speakers that I "know so much Russian", when that and a few swear words are all I know.

Language is formed from arbitrary sounds which are meaningful only after one has learned their significance. No one could ever intuit production or comprehension of Korean or any other language.

Nicky Cruz came from Puerto Rico around the ideal age, linguistically, of 15 years to live in New York City in a dysfunctional primitive family. It's no miracle that he spoke English and joined a gang.

Are they lying? Religion and the misinformation that accompanies it can create a separate reality in which truth and fiction are no longer easily distinguished. A miracle minded person will believe in miracles. Often people just simply don't know what they're talking about and want to sound important.

 

[Mouldy Cheeses]

My Now "ex" was part of a pentecostal movement who got annoyed with me when they couldn't " suck me in to tithe for the comfort of the pastor..."

Every time she spoke in "tongues"..it was monosyllabic and identical to the lat time she spoke in "tongues", yet the interpretation offered each time by anoter was different ... but aligned to the theme that the pastor was haranguing everyone about earlier.

All the so called interpretations started with Oh Yeah.... ....

then there was a lot of blah blah blah interspersed with more "oh yeah" ..... and always ended with " so sayeth the lord."

Call me a hypocrite? nope ..it sounded like ..and was nonsense, designed to make the pastors speech for more funds/gullible converts/ etc more effective. And to put fear into any of his detractors

As to their godliness... my ex is now married to that pastor after it was revealed they were praising laban's camels ( the two humped beast) in his office when supposedly organizing the church's activities ... while his wife ( he divorced her! )was not around.

Sorry if I offend any religion devotees here... but the facts are ... religion ( of all types) has a bad track record ...

 

[pakeha]

Well in my time I have meet a lot of people that have had interesting experiences.

For example one that was able to speak Korean. Another is a case related to me by a visitor to Germany who spoke both English and German and saw a German speak in English, although the visitor subsequently learned that the speaker didn't understand it, what made that story more interesting is a second non-English speaker translated it back to German and got it right. Possibly one of the most famous ones in the case of Nicky Cruz (Cross and the Switchblade, and Run Baby, Run) who mainly spoke Spanish with only a little understanding of English, and yet one day when his translator took sick, he delivered his entire message in perfect English.

Of course they could all be lying.

From my own personal experience, I could relate cases which equal those anecdotes. None of which in the least related to the supernatural. Not all of these cases I know of were of people lying, per se, but were instances of empathy and good will. And exaggeration. Lots of exaggeration.

Perhaps the cheesiest instance I recall was that of a person who claimed to be able to translate a Qi Gong master's obscure Chinese dialect during a number of lectures the venerable man gave to an admiring public.
At the end of the day, it turned out the 'master' was telling us childhood memories and the 'translator' reciting Qi Gong texts from memory.

Painful but true.

 

[Pup]

I'd never actually heard anyone speak in tongues, so I looked for some videos. Here's one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkn1BilNhmc (skip to about 7:40)

Another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDe_WXKM860

Another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2wzai5grQo (skip to 7:00)

Now, what I find interesting is the first two are amazingly similar to what I do (described in previous posts). The third is a bit more forced and repetitive.

In other words, if we talked to each other this way, it would sound as if we were speaking the same unintelligible language, in the same way I could tell the difference between two Russian speakers and one person speaking Russian and another Chinese, although I know nothing of those languages.

So there seems to be some kind of natural tendency toward certain nonsense syllables. I wonder why? I wonder if it's the same across all languages? I mean, do native Russian speakers and native English speakers sound similar when they "speak in tongues" or do they tend toward different syllables based on their native language?

I'm also curious why those who "speak in tongues" for religious reasons seem to feel something when they do it--inspiration, ecstacy, whatever. It doesn't do anything like that for me. It's mildly fun, but other than that, meh. So the religious feelings aren't necessary, but apparently can be added on.

But hearing those videos helps confirm my idea that there's some natural ability which many people in different cultures stumbled on and used for various reasons, because it sounds so similar to what I discovered for fun on my own, isolated from any speaking-in-tongues tradition.

I'm still curious. Can most people do that? I've got a yes from me, a no from my wife, but how widespread is it? For example, if you (anyone) was asked to pretend to speak in tongues, could you do what's shown in those videos on command? It seems incredibly easy to me, and all the build-up of prayer etc. seems as silly as doing a big prayerful build-up before riding a bike and then saying it's a miracle because one was able to balance.

 

[CORed]

NO worries. I just notice that a lot of the thread titles are mis-spelled and wondered whether it was an in joke.

It's probably because, unlike post content, you can't edit a title after you post (you can report it and ask a moderator to fix it).

 

[CORed]

And why do so many people spell "fluoride" as "flouride"?

"uo" is a pretty unusual letter sequence in English. I can't think of anything other than "fluorine" and derivatives that use it. The correct spelling just looks wrong.

 

[foophil]

"uo" is a pretty unusual letter sequence in English. I can't think of anything other than "fluorine" and derivatives that use it. The correct spelling just looks wrong.

Funny enough, I made a thread over in the CT section about Fluoride and mis-spelled that there too. I blame my public edumacashon. And my lack of proof reading.