Are Cigarette Smokers Unfairly Stigmatized?

In my opinion, part of the problem is that, if you smoke where I am, I smoke with you. If I have to run the gantet of smokers around the entrance to a restaurant, or share your cigar at a baseball game, or rake your butts up out of my lawn, or breathe the smoke from your cigarettes through our shared wall, or shared ventilation, then you are violating my "among adults capable of consent in the privacy of their demesne" standard.
 
Temperance movement got stuff forbidden outright IIRC.

Compare that with what we have been doing with cigarette. Stop advertising on some venue (sport, TV), stop usage in piublic places gradually. Etc....

This would definitivelly work.

Canada had prior success with drugs, as it happens. We restricted direct-to-consumer advertising, and the rate of overprescribing and cost of drugs is considerably lower. It's hard to prove a single cause, but the mechanism is very plausible. The purpose of supplier advertising is to inflate demand, so restricting it seems to reduce demand. Makes sense.

The second arm is for the stakeholders in the government (public health mostly) to introduce their own negative advertising to suppress demand with information about health risks.

The strategy is long-term. Quitting is hard; not starting in the first place and creating future generations with fewer smokers seems to provide the most bang-for-the-buck.
 
I think it is possibly irrelevant if we are talking about somebody's right to smoke in, say, their car or at home. I am not sure how we can justify preventing anyone smoking if they want in such circumstances.


If you've become addicted to something before the age of majority, are you really exercising a "right"?

Also, smoking in one's own home may reduce the dangers of second-hand smoke, but it doesn't reduce the dangers of first-hand smoke. The smoker will become sicker and need greater health-care than the non-smoker. So the smoker is taken out of the workforce earlier and contributes less to the common good than the nonsmoker, and the smoker uses up medical resources and public monies in greater quantities.


n.b. There will always be the smoker who doesn't get sick and who lives in perfect health to the age 90. And there will always be the nonsmoker who gets sick at an early age. However, these individual cases do nothing to change the overall picture.
 
The externality in this case, is the cost of lung cancer and various other treatment being shifted unto other. Not only the monetary cost (health care) but also the emotional one really.

Although one could argue the same could be said to other illness.
And soon those who know better than you how to live your life will attack obesity.

I find fatties degrade the scenery.
 
The cigarette making companies sell nicotine knowing that their customers are very likely to become addicts. These customers persistently buy more as a consequence of that addiction. It works well, because nicotine is a highly addictive substance.

So the answer to your question is an emphatic" no", particularly when the inhalation of smoke containing nicotine also contains tar and other bad toxic contaminants that play havoc with the delicate lining and cleansing mechanisms of the lungs.
 
I looked this up because I didn't really understand it. Apparently an "externality" is some cost or benefit incurred by someone who didn't ask for it.

Okay, but I am not sure if I understand you completely. Are you saying that nobody else benefits from someone else smoking, and maybe even suffers therefore it should be outlawed?

I think it is possibly irrelevant if we are talking about somebody's right to smoke in, say, their car or at home. I am not sure how we can justify preventing anyone smoking if they want in such circumstances.

I believe it's been calculated (maybe because of the huge taxes on cigs in the UK) that smokers, all told, easily pay their way for any smoking-related treatment they might require on the NHS. Plus they die earlier meaning less state pension paid out. That is, they are net contributors via sales tax.

Meanwhile - yes, non-smokers have every right not to be bothered by the stink of cig smoke. But an element of balance would be nice sometimes - like when I'm downwind and 50 yds from the people sheltering in the waiting-room at the railway station, it really isn't necessary to have someone tell me over the p.a. that "Smoking is not allowed on this station sir". Get a life sometimes.

Oh, and I recall a Brit guy got busted after a new law was passed banning smoking in company vehicles. It was his company iirc
 
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Smokers are jokers! We flushed your sin sticks down the toilet!

I did that, literally, at 7 AM on the 1st of October, 1988. I haven't smoked since. In retrospect it was a symbolic act, 9 packs of cigarettes down the *******. After that it was a matter of repeating "I'm stronger than this addiction."

As for smokers, if somebody had body odor strong enough to fill the entire room with the smell, or a person was so drunk you could smell them across the room, what would you think?
 
If you've become addicted to something before the age of majority, are you really exercising a "right"?

Also, smoking in one's own home may reduce the dangers of second-hand smoke, but it doesn't reduce the dangers of first-hand smoke. The smoker will become sicker and need greater health-care than the non-smoker. So the smoker is taken out of the workforce earlier and contributes less to the common good than the nonsmoker, and the smoker uses up medical resources and public monies in greater quantities.


n.b. There will always be the smoker who doesn't get sick and who lives in perfect health to the age 90. And there will always be the nonsmoker who gets sick at an early age. However, these individual cases do nothing to change the overall picture.
I don't intend to find a cite but saw a study a few days ago regarding third-hand smoke which is remainders on clothes, furniture, curtains, etc that found it equally dangerous to second-hand.

ps. I'm trying to quit but am still at a couple per day.
 
I believe it's been calculated (maybe because of the huge taxes on cigs in the UK) that smokers, all told, easily pay their way for any smoking-related treatment they might require on the NHS. Plus they die earlier meaning less state pension paid out. That is, they are net contributors via sales tax.

I've heard this before, but rarely seen credible citations. Most I've been asked to review are making unjustified assumptions. ie: that people dying young are not taxing the medical system the way long-lived people do. Especially in this day and age of productivity among senior citizens. I'd like to see numbers.

It also doesn't address the other social costs, which are lost 'value years', economic cost of lost opportunity, and human suffering in loved ones caused by the smoker's premature death.

Having said that, the 'sin tax' approach is closing the gap on linking raw economic costs with users. Without that type of policy, the tobacco and alcohol industries would certainly be drawing from economic externalities.




Meanwhile - yes, non-smokers have every right not to be bothered by the stink of cig smoke. But an element of balance would be nice sometimes - like when I'm downwind and 50 yds from the people sheltering in the waiting-room at the railway station, it really isn't necessary to have someone tell me over the p.a. that "Smoking is not allowed on this station sir". Get a life sometimes.

Probably more than just smoke, though. Litter and fire risk. Even considering smell, wind can shift unpredictably, as anybody who has sat near a campfire can attest. ("white rabbit!")




Oh, and I recall a Brit guy got busted after a new law was passed banning smoking in company vehicles. It was his company iirc

I'll have to check, but I think that was a case with a fleet vehicle. Commercial vehicles are usually divided into "fleet" (shared by many employees) vs "individually operated" vehicles.

Sort of like saying, "I own this restaurant, so I should be able to smoke in it, my employees' health be damned."
 
Sure, but doesn't that contradict this:

No. I don't consider private property to be "public" space.

A business is private property. The business owner should be able to allow or disallow any conduct that is not otherwise illegal. If you can legally do it on your own property, you should be able to legally do it on someone else's property with their permission.
 
Restrict smoking in public places when the presence of smoke diminishes the enjoyment of non-smokers. This is proper.

I agree with this, however it seemed some of the examples in the OP went quite a bit farther than this?
 
Cigarettes have a laundry list of negatives and only one positive: they make the smoker look cool. Just wear a scarf and stand in front of a fan.
 
Cigarettes have a laundry list of negatives and only one positive: they make the smoker look cool. Just wear a scarf and stand in front of a fan.

I would suggest that there is another positive, though... weight management. Nicotine addiction seems to be associated with lower body fat percentage.

The costs do not outweigh the benefits, from what I have read. Epidemiologists have been interested in the tradeoff, though.
 
No. I don't consider private property to be "public" space.

A business is private property. The business owner should be able to allow or disallow any conduct that is not otherwise illegal. If you can legally do it on your own property, you should be able to legally do it on someone else's property with their permission.

There is a complication with the word 'private' in a lot of these contexts. Businesses have a private owner, but they are usually considered a publicly accessed location. They are also usually a 'workplace' which means there is a justification for legislating the environment of the employees. Specifying limitations to the contract such that they can't sign their health away.

Private 'clubs' are differentiated from businesses that are 'open to the public'.

This interpretation is universal, not specific for cigarette legislation.
 
I believe it's been calculated (maybe because of the huge taxes on cigs in the UK) that smokers, all told, easily pay their way for any smoking-related treatment they might require on the NHS. Plus they die earlier meaning less state pension paid out. That is, they are net contributors via sales tax.

I was looking this up not too long ago because I have considered that smokers dying younger save the medical system a lot of money. The theory being that as you get older you use the medical system more and more.
I found this article on Forbes which came up with these numbers.

The actual numbers for lifetime from 20 years old medical costs were:

The lifetime costs were in Euros:

Healthy: 281,000

Obese: 250,000

Smokers: 220,000



http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/
 

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