Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Just to get slightly off topic. I don't think that would ever play out that way. If the police found 3 missing kids in the trunk, instead of ecstasy pills.... he never would have got off... In theory in might seem that way... but I can't see that playing out in reality. I judge that made that decision would find himself hung from a tree.

I understand. I can't think of something like that being overlooked as well, but I understand the reason behind throwing out evidence such as that. You have a Constitutional right against the authorities just on a whim detaining you and searching through your belongings. This is your basic right to privacy. And the court has a duty to protect it. Not you, but the right.
 
Ok. I feel this needs to be explained a bit more. Because I don't quite get what that means... and I feel many others, especially those that believe in AK's and RS's guilt.

Let me try to explain myself with an example. There was a guy, a drug dealer from back home, that was busted with 10's of thousands of dollars in ecstasy pills. But the police only found the pills after he was in an accident... and for some reason (I can't remember) the looked in his trunk and found the pills. Anyway, the judge threw the case out because of the illegal search... they didn't follow protocol... without being able to present this as evidence... they had no case..... but everyone with a brain can figure out he was still a drug dealer.

Now I think this is how some people view the DNA on the knife..... yeah, maybe it was a small sample... yeah maybe it didn't follow protocol.... but to the lay observer... it still sounds like a tiny bit of Meridith was on that knife.... and if it was... how the hell did it get there? Sometimes when I'm arguing against the DNA evidence...... I'm almost saying... "there is no proof he was a drug dealer... the judge threw that evidence out".


I know I have that wrong.... but I don't really know why I'm wrong. I'd like to have this area more clear in my head.

It was a contamination error caused by poor procedures. Meredith's DNA was never on the knife. It showed up faintly in this one test result because her DNA was in a slew of other samples the lab had tested.

This happens all the time, which is why results at that level are normally not recorded at all and why labs normally take a number of precautions Stefanoni did not take. It's not a technicality but a matter of scientific accuracy.
 
why one takes precautions and runs control experiments in DNA profiling

Caper,

One way to think about it is that precautions such as changing gloves, using pipet tips with aerosol barriers, et cetera, is all about trying not to get a result. The point is to try to avoid spurious DNA samples. The purpose of running negative controls can also be thought of as trying not to report a meaningless result. The fact that negative controls have never emerged after all this time means that the experiment was never completed IMO.

In the particular case of the knife, the lack of blood coupled with the presence of other biological matter is one aspect of the data that strongly indicates contamination. The fact that the sample is well into the low template region also means that the sample is more likely to result from some event that is unrelated to the crime.
 
Ok. I feel this needs to be explained a bit more. Because I don't quite get what that means... and I feel many others, especially those that believe in AK's and RS's guilt.

Let me try to explain myself with an example. There was a guy, a drug dealer from back home, that was busted with 10's of thousands of dollars in ecstasy pills. But the police only found the pills after he was in an accident... and for some reason (I can't remember) the looked in his trunk and found the pills. Anyway, the judge threw the case out because of the illegal search... they didn't follow protocol... without being able to present this as evidence... they had no case..... but everyone with a brain can figure out he was still a drug dealer.

Now I think this is how some people view the DNA on the knife..... yeah, maybe it was a small sample... yeah maybe it didn't follow protocol.... but to the lay observer... it still sounds like a tiny bit of Meridith was on that knife.... and if it was... how the hell did it get there? Sometimes when I'm arguing against the DNA evidence...... I'm almost saying... "there is no proof he was a drug dealer... the judge threw that evidence out".


I know I have that wrong.... but I don't really know why I'm wrong. I'd like to have this area more clear in my head.

The protocols she skipped and lied about are the ones where she determines if there was anything on the blade or anything on the swab she extracted. That's rather important if you stop and think of it! The 'too low' is the same result she would get if there was nothing on the swab when she extracted it. That lab processed hundreds of item with Meredith Kercher's DNA, there was nothing on the knife except debris and food particles which show the knife wasn't scrubbed clean to remove all blood traces and it tested negative for blood with the two tests Stefanoni performed and the one the independent experts did. As she got the same result as nothing when she tried to quantify what she extracted, the irresistible inference is that that smidgin of DNA came from her lab. It registered 'peaks' of 20-40 RFUs (as opposed to 1000-2000) which with an Identifiler kit and 28 cycles suggests around 10 picograms of material, around 1 nanogram (1000 picograms) is what that equipment is designed for. One reason for those minimum DNA thresholds (she used 100 RFUs on most samples, 50 RFUs was the lowest in use at the time) is to prevent 'profiling' contamination.

However she lied about the amount in court, claiming she quantified it with Real Time PCR amplification and got a result of 'some hundreds of picograms.' At that juncture her (paper) records weren't available and they avoided allowing the defense to see them until July 30th, 2009 which is where much of this was discovered, including her lies about the TMB negatives she also hid. To this day she has managed to avoid releasing the EDFs, the electronic data which those electopherograms are generated off of, defying the request of the independent experts and the judge.

So to make a long story shorter, there's no reason to think that DNA was ever on the blade and numerous reasons to think it wasn't. There's no reason to think it was even in the sample she put into the extractor, and in fact she could even have photoshopped it, though that's not what she did, instead she just advanced contamination as evidence and lied about it to hide that.

To use your example it would be the equivalent of the police finding absolutely nothing in the trunk, but taking out the trunk rug and claiming to the court they'd found a pill. Then when the records were shown it was determined there was no pill, instead she tested the trunk rug in a lab which tested hundreds of items with ecstasy dust and what she actually claimed she found tested negative first but then when performing more tests in that dirty lab claimed she found 1% of a pill by ignoring the lab rules which automatically discount that as they know that picking up minute quantities like that happens when you test hundreds of items that do have ecstasy dust on them. Oh, and she refuses to actually show the results of the test but just a piece of paper that says she found a minute amount of dust and won't let you see the entire results of those tests come hell or high water.

I read somewhere in the last court Crini didn't even pretend there was Meredith's DNA on the blade anymore, he just used the knife anyway as it had Amanda's DNA on the handle because she used it to cook with. I await further information on that.
 
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It was a contamination error caused by poor procedures. Meredith's DNA was never on the knife. It showed up faintly in this one test result because her DNA was in a slew of other samples the lab had tested.

This happens all the time, which is why results at that level are normally not recorded at all and why labs normally take a number of precautions Stefanoni did not take. It's not a technicality but a matter of scientific accuracy.



THANK YOU!! That's the explanation I was looking for. So it's kind of like sample carryover?

I guess what I'm kind of thinking of is this. I used to work in an environmental lab.... testing for mercury. When I would get a sample high in mercury..... you could still see it on the following samples.... most of the time it still fell under the non detect limit..... but you could still see the residual mercury on the graph.
 
If there's not good evidence the prosecutor is supposed to ask for an acquittal. If they don't, then the judge and lay judges must determine the prosecutor is misrepresenting things or is incorrect as to what the evidence means, that's tougher for some to do than others. There's a natural bias to assume the authorities are correct and wouldn't lie (or be incompetent) about matters of evidence and justice.
....

But if the prosecutor finds that evidence is insufficient, why would it go to trial in the first place? Wouldn't he dismiss it himself, rather than request an acquittal? Or does someone other than the prosecutor decide what cases go to trial? And what happens when a lay juror decides that he doesn't believe the prosecutor? I can't believe there are no consequences, whether formal or otherwise ("We might have to come audit your tax records -- every day forever.")
 
Defending the 'honour' of killers.

Wow – again, what a lot of emotional responses.

What is the problem
- my highlighting the low response to the petition
- the perceived smear of AK [or Obama's dog's] character
- the reference to RS's taste in pornography [ he was into even sicker stuff IIRC , dismemberment etc ] .

The first and last are factual – hence the upset perhaps.

As regards the middle ...
It was a throwaway line – but the response again highlights something I noted soon after I first posted on this topic. The constant furious efforts to defend Amanda's honour – very telling. Bizarre but explicable as I said at the time.

As I pointed out then and it remains true today, it's her liberty not her honour that's at stake.
 
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Evelyn's son has his, what's yours?

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Wow – again, what a lot of emotional responses.

What is the problem
- my highlighting the low response to the petition
- the perceived smear of AK [or Obama's dog's] character- the reference to RS's taste in pornography [ he was into even sicker stuff IIRC , dismemberment etc ] .

The first and last are factual – hence the upset perhaps.

As regards the middle ...
It was a throwaway line – but the response again highlights something I noted soon after I first posted on this topic. The constant furious efforts to defend Amanda's honour – very telling. Bizarre but explicable as I said at the time.

As I pointed out then and it remains true today, it's her liberty not her honour that's at stake.
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Evelyn's son feels guilty because he wants to have sex with his mother and that's why he hates woman (Amanda) who remind him of his mother.

He does throwaway lines (insults) also to protect himself from anyone ever finding out he wants to have sex with his mother.

What's your excuse?
d

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Wow – again, what a lot of emotional responses.

What is the problem
- my highlighting the low response to the petition
- the perceived smear of AK [or Obama's dog's] character
- the reference to RS's taste in pornography [ he was into even sicker stuff IIRC , dismemberment etc ] .

The first and last are factual – hence the upset perhaps.

As regards the middle ...
It was a throwaway line – but the response again highlights something I noted soon after I first posted on this topic. The constant furious efforts to defend Amanda's honour – very telling. Bizarre but explicable as I said at the time.

As I pointed out then and it remains true today, it's her liberty not her honour that's at stake.

I think most of them are, like me, more interested in the evidence. For example, the testimony regarding these claims. Turns out the guy couldn't remember seeing the video and didn't know what was on it. Migi was pretty pissed.

As far as dismemberment, I saw Kill Bill 2. I haven't murdered anyone yet.
 
But if the prosecutor finds that evidence is insufficient, why would it go to trial in the first place? Wouldn't he dismiss it himself, rather than request an acquittal? Or does someone other than the prosecutor decide what cases go to trial? And what happens when a lay juror decides that he doesn't believe the prosecutor? I can't believe there are no consequences, whether formal or otherwise ("We might have to come audit your tax records -- every day forever.")

If the first prosecutor finds it insufficient then it wouldn't go to trial. However if it did go to trial then regardless of the result there's another trial. In the case of an acquittal the prosecution may decline to appeal, or the second prosecutor may decide to request an acquittal. Since Mignini in the first trial appealed the guilty verdict (he wanted a longer sentence) the first trial being an acquittal for Raffaele and Amanda would still have meant they had to face another one as he most certainly would have appealed an acquittal, just like the acquittal in the Hellmann court was appealed.

My point on evidence was that in most courts there's rules of admissibility and so forth, ruled on by the judge. In Italian courts the Prosecutor decides that for himself, the defense can object but the judge will likely side with the prosecutor as he can just appeal that anyway. Lay jurors and judges can certainly decide that the prosecutor has not proven his case, but when that prosecutor uses bogus evidence and tells them they have the DNA of the accused and victim on the murder knife, bloody footprints 'attributed' to her, their blood mixed in the bathroom and an 'impeccable witness' breaks the alibi they might be more likely to believe him and don't have the ability themselves to realize what he has advanced as evidence is actually nothing but fraud, for which there are no consequences.
 
You have expanded on this more than I. The $10 per month fee, when aggregated with thousands of other students and travelers, should provide a steady retainer to one or several law firms in each country. ....

The problem with having one or several firms on retainer is that it restricts the clients' choices. Amanda and Raffaele needed the best criminal defense attorney in Perugia, not some Rome-based corporate firm, which would be the kind of practice most likely to join forces with international banks. Maintaining a database of lawyers and their specialties around the world, even in small cities, would be more likely to get you the lawyer you need when you need him. The lawyer you need to pursue a damage claim after a traffic accident is not the guy you need to come visit you in jail in the middle of the night on a trumped-up murder charge.
 
Wow – again, what a lot of emotional responses.

What is the problem
- my highlighting the low response to the petition
- the perceived smear of AK [or Obama's dog's] character
- the reference to RS's taste in pornography [ he was into even sicker stuff IIRC , dismemberment etc ] .

The first and last are factual – hence the upset perhaps.

As regards the middle ...
It was a throwaway line – but the response again highlights something I noted soon after I first posted on this topic. The constant furious efforts to defend Amanda's honour – very telling. Bizarre but explicable as I said at the time.

As I pointed out then and it remains true today, it's her liberty not her honour that's at stake.

What's the relevance of the porn again? I thought Meredith was killed because of the poop?
 
Kill Bill (the original) was better, in my opinion

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I think most of them are, like me, more interested in the evidence. For example, the testimony regarding these claims. Turns out the guy couldn't remember seeing the video and didn't know what was on it. Migi was pretty pissed.

As far as dismemberment, I saw Kill Bill 2. I haven't murdered anyone yet.
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I guess people who like slasher movies and researching serial killers are both doomed to become killers also. It's a wonder half the population of the world isn't dead from all of us "perverts" yet,

d

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I think most of them are, like me, more interested in the evidence. For example, the testimony regarding these claims. Turns out the guy couldn't remember seeing the video and didn't know what was on it. Migi was pretty pissed.

As far as dismemberment, I saw Kill Bill 2. I haven't murdered anyone yet.

Excellent reply Rose. I saw both Kill Bill Volume 1 and 2 as well as "The Saw", Halloween, Friday the 13th, The Silence of the Lambs and other pretty sick movies and I have never committed any violent acts either. What is wrong with us? Frankly, "Criminal Minds" gives me the heebie jeebies.
 
Wow – again, what a lot of emotional responses.

What is the problem
- my highlighting the low response to the petition
- the perceived smear of AK [or Obama's dog's] character
- the reference to RS's taste in pornography [ he was into even sicker stuff IIRC , dismemberment etc ] .

You forgot your headline: Defending the honour of killers.

Here is the problem: the evidence clearly shows they're not killers. Perhaps you'd like to argue the facts on that? Sans invented "I think I heard that" sort of stuff?

Your display of joy at the recent court decision and the difficulty in which they find themselves is therefore a bit like a guy who cheers while watching a freight train advance toward a pair of innocent people tied helplessly to a track.
 
"SLAP!!!"

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Excellent reply Rose. I saw both Kill Bill Volume 1 and 2 as well as "The Saw", Halloween, Friday the 13th, The Silence of the Lambs and other pretty sick movies and I have never committed any violent acts either. What is wrong with us? Frankly, "Criminal Minds" gives me the heebie jeebies.
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It's because the trauma has made you forget.

All you have to do is clear your mind... and get someone to slap the back of your head to push the memory forward...

d

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The protocols she skipped and lied about are the ones where she determines if there was anything on the blade or anything on the swab she extracted. That's rather important if you stop and think of it! The 'too low' is the same result she would get if there was nothing on the swab when she extracted it. That lab processed hundreds of item with Meredith Kercher's DNA, there was nothing on the knife except debris and food particles which show the knife wasn't scrubbed clean to remove all blood traces and it tested negative for blood with the two tests Stefanoni performed and the one the independent experts did. As she got the same result as nothing when she tried to quantify what she extracted, the irresistible inference is that that smidgin of DNA came from her lab. It registered 'peaks' of 20-40 RFUs (as opposed to 1000-2000) which with an Identifiler kit and 28 cycles suggests around 10 picograms of material, around 1 nanogram (1000 picograms) is what that equipment is designed for. One reason for those minimum DNA thresholds (she used 100 RFUs on most samples, 50 RFUs was the lowest in use at the time) is to prevent 'profiling' contamination.

However she lied about the amount in court, claiming she quantified it with Real Time PCR amplification and got a result of 'some hundreds of picograms.' At that juncture her (paper) records weren't available and they avoided allowing the defense to see them until July 30th, 2009 which is where much of this was discovered, including her lies about the TMB negatives she also hid. To this day she has managed to avoid releasing the EDFs, the electronic data which those electopherograms are generated off of, defying the request of the independent experts and the judge.

So to make a long story shorter, there's no reason to think that DNA was ever on the blade and numerous reasons to think it wasn't. There's no reason to think it was even in the sample she put into the extractor, and in fact she could even have photoshopped it, though that's not what she did, instead she just advanced contamination as evidence and lied about it to hide that.

To use your example it would be the equivalent of the police finding absolutely nothing in the trunk, but taking out the trunk rug and claiming to the court they'd found a pill. Then when the records were shown it was determined there was no pill, instead she tested the trunk rug in a lab which tested hundreds of items with ecstasy dust and what she actually claimed she found tested negative first but then when performing more tests in that dirty lab claimed she found 1% of a pill by ignoring the lab rules which automatically discount that as they know that picking up minute quantities like that happens when you test hundreds of items that do have ecstasy dust on them. Oh, and she refuses to actually show the results of the test but just a piece of paper that says she found a minute amount of dust and won't let you see the entire results of those tests come hell or high water.

Bookmarking that. Good post.
 
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