Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[maximara]

As I see it, two things are relevant here.

What is meant by myth? Does it simply mean, lack of positive evidence for historicity? Or does it refer to some specific pre-existing construct, containing features that were later worked up into the Jesus story, without that story having any reality whatsoever? These are two very different positions.

Actually as I pointed out before using Remsburg who in turn was using Strauss there is a third way regard myth. The two ways you are talking about are historical myth and philosophical myth. The third type is Poetical myth which Remsburg defines as follows:

"A Poetical myth is a blending of the historical and philosophical, embellished by the creations of the imagination. The poems of Homer and Hesiod, which were the religious text books of the ancient Greeks, and the poetical writings of the Bible, which helped to form and foster the Semitic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Mohammedanism, belong to this class."

To use more a more modern example Christopher Columbus sailed West to prove the Earth was round is a Poetical myth because it blends a historical event (Christopher Columbus sailing West) with a philosophical message (the noble explorer overcoming ignorance...usually represented as the Christian Church).


"It is often difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish a historical from a philosophical myth. Hence the non-agreement of Freethinkers in regard to the nature of the Christ myth. Is Christ a historical or a philosophical myth? Does an analysis of his alleged history disclose the deification of a man, or merely the personification of an idea?" (Resmburg)

Has the belief in historicity, or its rejection, been created or coloured by hostility to the behaviour of religious organisations and their adherents in recent times. Is denying historicity a mode of attack against these recent religious misdeeds? If so, can it be justified as a tactic or strategy? That would be an important issue, worthy of protracted discussion.

If you look at the majority of the works that defend the HJ position against the 'didn't exist as a human being' MJ one you tend to find that it is the Gospel Jesus rather then a plausible historical one they wind up defending.

These HJers aren't defending the minimal Jesus who preached a doctrine that resulted in him getting executed by the Roman but as much of the Gospel Jesus as possible (Eddy-Boyd's Jesus Legend case in point).

These HJers tend to present Thallus as "proof" that the 3 hour darkness actually happen and if you are lucky you may even have a naturalistic explanation like volcanic ash used...all the while ignoring no one else notes any such darkness.

 

[Craig B]

Doesn't Marxism itself have a kind of eschatological flavour? I've always assumed that this was derived from Judaeo-Christian ideas, but I suppose it could just be a generalized hope for the 'end of history', which humans may possess. Interesting that that phrase was used about the triumph of capitalism, by Fukuyama, who I think has rowed back from that idea now. I suppose the French Revolution saw itself as the triumph of Reason, which is rather ironic.

Yes, some aspects of Marxism do have that flavour; other aspects are a mundane analysis of the workings of capitalism, a philosophy of history, and an ideology of science, the latter now generally regarded as unsound. "Dialectics of nature", etc. But it was the eschatological aspect that caught the imagination of course. It is quite persuasive and powerful, even if it has incited many delusions.

In some ways the French Revolution was a triumph of reason - not in a positive sense that Marat or Robespierre were pillars of wisdom, but because the revolution removed many political, cultural and religious obstacles to the exercise of reason, which had impeded its progress under the ancien régime.

 

[dejudge]

These HJers aren't defending the minimal Jesus who preached a doctrine that resulted in him getting executed by the Roman but as much of the Gospel Jesus as possible (Eddy-Boyd's Jesus Legend case in point).

The QUESTERS here are defending what they call a "standard HJ"--an obscure preacher who was crucified under Pilate after he caused a disturbance at the Jewish Temple.

But what is most amusing is that they immediately use a piece of forgery in Tacitus about a guy named Christus who was WELL KNOWN and it is not known how he died. Plus, the copy of Tacitus Annals is an 11th century copy which has been shown to be manipulated under ultra-violet light.

The QUESTERS HJ makes no sense.

There is no evidence in the history of mankind where it was the culture of Jews and Romans to worship crucified criminals as Gods.

There is no evidence for the Jesus story and cult until AFTER c 70 CE.

ALL the actual existing evidence adds up to demonstrate that the Jesus story and cult was a 2nd century phenomenon.

As soon as the entire Canon is placed AFTER c 70 CE the Jesus story is SOLVED.

The existing evidence ANSWERS all questions.

Jesus, the disciples and Paul are ALL post c 70 CE.

 

[David Mo]

(…)
You seem to think there is a difference between an abnormal event and a natural one. Per Oxford dictionary abnormal: different from what is usual or expected
A man getting out of his vehicle and having a conversion with a tree is abnormal...but it is not beyond natural world explanations. He may be of poor eyesight or he may have dementia brought on by some undiagnosed medical condition (as was the case with King George III)

(…)

As I have pointed out before my beef with the Gospels accounts is NOT their supernatural stuff but all the non supernatural but abnormal events:

1) Censuses were for the taxation of the local area. It is abnormal for people to have to go back to there their ancestors lived for taxation especially if they came from outside the local area.

[Etc., etc.]

I did not put here the adjectives "extraordinary”, "abnormal" and "mysterious”. You attributed them to the Bermuda Triangle. I would say the mysterious disappearance of about 1000 ships and aircrafts, among which some of large tonnage, is more than merely strange or surprising. I certainly do not know much about the Bermuda Triangle. Maybe these adjectives in English have a meaning that is beyond me, but I would never say that the existence of a preacher in the first century to whom his followers attributed "abnormal" and miraculous events is either abnormal or extraordinary or mysterious. Neither can it be equated with the mysterious disappearance of 1000 ships and aircrafts. There are many examples of individuals from the first century to whom his followers and enemies attributed miraculous acts. It is a relatively normal in fact.

You seem to believe I advocate that the strange facts that appear in the Gospels should be taken as real facts. Not so. Although we would consider that the deeds attributed to Jesus were mere delusion, we might consider also that Jesus existed by analyzing illusory deeds attributed to him. The witchcraft processes were full of illusory and superstitious testimonies and sentences, but that does not prevent that witches existed in Europe who were persecuted and burned. The beliefs were illusory the witches bodies not… to their misfortune.

True, witches didn't fly and didn't kill with "evil eyes". True, Jesus did not fly or cured with his word. He could not even born at the time attributed to him in the Gospels. But just as the real witches existed could also be that Jesus existed. To know this we must to analyze the reasons given to justify his existence. And I think I have at least one.

 

[The Big Dog]

But what is most amusing is that they immediately use a piece of forgery in Tacitus about a guy named Christus who was WELL KNOWN and it is not known how he died. Plus, the copy of Tacitus Annals is an 11th century copy which has been shown to be manipulated under ultra-violet light.

This is my FAVORITE part of the Gish Gallop! You see it was a 1. forgery about 2. someone named Christus who was not Christ but was 3. well known but 4. we don't know how he died (even though the very next sentence says he was killed by Pilate) 5. and the 11th century "forgery" about someone who was Christus and was well known was "manipulated."

Lolz. So someone created a forgery about some other guy and the forgery about the other guy was manipulated for some damn reason or the other.

Fantastic.

 

[dejudge]

...True, witches didn't fly and didn't kill with "evil eyes". True, Jesus did not fly or cured with his word. He could not even born at the time attributed to him in the Gospels. But just as the real witches existed could also be that Jesus existed. To know this we must to analyze the reasons given to justify his existence. And I think I have at least one.

QUESTERS are NOT looking for reasons. They are looking for evidence.

Do you have any evidence of HJ for the QUESTERS?

This is the THIRD attempt after 250 years and two disastrous failures.

The reason for the failures of the QUESTERS was an obvious lack of evidence.

 

[dejudge]

This is my FAVORITE part of the Gish Gallop! You see it was a 1. forgery about 2. someone named Christus who was not Christ but was 3. well known but 4. we don't know how he died (even though the very next sentence says he was killed by Pilate) 5. and the 11th century "forgery" about someone who was Christus and was well known was "manipulated."

Lolz. So someone created a forgery about some other guy and the forgery about the other guy was manipulated for some damn reason or the other.

Fantastic.

GISH GALLOP?

You seem to have no idea that people of antiquity were named Christus just like people were called Festus or Porcius or Pontius.

GISH GALLOP?

You seem to have no idea that Tacitus Annals does not state that Christus was crucified.

GISH GALLOP?

You seem to have no idea that the present Tacitus Annals is an 11th century copy which has been found to be manipulated.

GISH GALLOP?

You seem to have no idea that no apologetic writer used Tacitus Annals for hundreds of years to argue for the advent of Jesus Christ---they used the a forgery called the TF.

GISH GALLOP?

You seem to have no idea that Tacitus Annals with Christus is contradicted by Tacitus Histories 5

GISH GALLOP?

You have no idea that Tacitus Annals with Christus is a very late forgery and was unknown up to at least the 5th century.

 

[The Big Dog]

GISH GALLOP?

Hilarious gish gallop snipped.

I seem to have no idea that the 11th Century forgery was about some guy who was not Christ and was not Crucified by Pilate and that the forgery was manipulated!

Hee Hee! Man, what were those monks thinking in writing a forgery about that other guy?

can a brother get a laughing dog?

 

[Belz...]

The QUESTERS here are defending what they call a "standard HJ"

They are ?

The QUESTERS HJ makes no sense.

You're still using those words inappropriately. "Makes sense" isn't synonymous with "has loads of evidence to support it."


You lose if you mention my post saying the evidence is terrible.

 

[Belz...]

I would say the mysterious disappearance of about 1000 ships and aircrafts, among which some of large tonnage, is more than merely strange or surprising.

Yeah, it also never happened. The triangle, ill-defined as it is, has no higher occurance of dissapearances as any other place. Furthermore many of the stories ignore the ships or planes reappearing, and use cases from outside the triangle as happening inside it, exaggerate or fabricate details about the stories, etc.

 

[Belz...]

GISH GALLOP?

Yes.

GISH GALLOP?

Indeed.

GISH GALLOP?

Absolutely.

GISH GALLOP?

Definitely.

GISH GALLOP?

Assuredly.

GISH GALLOP?

Confirmed.

 

[zugzwang]

Yes, some aspects of Marxism do have that flavour; other aspects are a mundane analysis of the workings of capitalism, a philosophy of history, and an ideology of science, the latter now generally regarded as unsound. "Dialectics of nature", etc. But it was the eschatological aspect that caught the imagination of course. It is quite persuasive and powerful, even if it has incited many delusions.

In some ways the French Revolution was a triumph of reason - not in a positive sense that Marat or Robespierre were pillars of wisdom, but because the revolution removed many political, cultural and religious obstacles to the exercise of reason, which had impeded its progress under the ancien régime.

Yes, going o/t a bit, but by gum, it's interesting - the French Revolution did make those advances, as you say, but also maybe shows the perils of idealism, whether political or religious or whatever. Or maybe it's not so much the idealists as the zealots, who in the end, always want to convince you that they're right, and then the super-zealots are very unhappy that you're not convinced, and so it goes on. 'Virtue is powerless without terror', St Just, or Robespierre, I think. Well, I suppose he had a point.

 

[David Mo]

Yeah, it also never happened. The triangle, ill-defined as it is, has no higher occurance of dissapearances as any other place. Furthermore many of the stories ignore the ships or planes reappearing, and use cases from outside the triangle as happening inside it, exaggerate or fabricate details about the stories, etc.

I suppose you are right but I was just trying to compare the current legend of Bermuda Triangle with the legend of Jesus for I think there are conceptual differences between them. Just that.

 

[Belz...]

Oh, sorry. I was just trying to be informative.

 

[maximara]

Yeah, it also never happened. The triangle, ill-defined as it is, has no higher occurance of dissapearances as any other place. Furthermore many of the stories ignore the ships or planes reappearing, and use cases from outside the triangle as happening inside it, exaggerate or fabricate details about the stories, etc.

Right. For example, take the Raifuku Maru who according to the legend sent the message "Danger like a dagger now! Come quick!" before disappearing in 1925. In reality, the message was "Now very danger! Come quick!" and the RMS Homeric actually observed the Raifuku Maru sinking in a raging storm.

Another example is the ship Revonoc where is is stated that Harvey Conover, his wife, and son in law, and some friends went on a pleasure cruse in December 1957. In the movie Devil's Triangle (1974) a "documentary" by Richard Winer it is stated "As 1957 was ending a search was beginning as Revonoc had vanished." The NOVA/Horizon episode The Case of the Bermuda Triangle comments "Vanished in fact in near hurricane winds in the worst storm in Florida's history".

Kusche noted that in some cases so little information is given that he couldn't verify the ship in question ever existed in the first place.

These example are typical of the Bermuda Triangle stories; "They sound authoritative; they simply aren't." The same can be said in terms of quality for much if not all of the evidence of a historical Jesus.

 

[Belz...]

Max, we all agree the evidence is very weak, and not only that, but it's peppered with nonsense like magic and gods and talking animals.

But to me it's not the evidence in the text that's particularily interesting, though there are things that gives hints as to the early beliefs of Christianity and how it evolved, but how the idea of an HJ fits the narrative, the evolution of the story, the rise of Christianity, etc. MJ might work, too, but it doesn't fit the narrative at all: we have to assume a long bit of history that we just don't have. Do you understand what I mean ?

 

[maximara]

I suppose you are right but I was just trying to compare the current legend of Bermuda Triangle with the legend of Jesus for I think there are conceptual differences between them. Just that.

Not really. As related by Kusche the various Bermuda Triangle writers took what came before them adding to and deleting from...sounds like the canonal Gospel account doesn't it?

 

[dejudge]

Max, we all agree the evidence is very weak, and not only that, but it's peppered with nonsense like magic and gods and talking animals.

But to me it's not the evidence in the text that's particularily interesting, though there are things that gives hints as to the early beliefs of Christianity and how it evolved, but how the idea of an HJ fits the narrative, the evolution of the story, the rise of Christianity, etc. MJ might work, too, but it doesn't fit the narrative at all: we have to assume a long bit of history that we just don't have. Do you understand what I mean ?

Your post is just a total contradiction.

The QUEST for an HJ is directly because of the text.

The Text portrays a Jesus of Faith, a Mythical Jesus.

Please review the history of the QUEST for an HJ.

The Questers are looking for an HJ outside the NT because the NT text matches that of a Myth.

By the way, you never claimed to have had evidence for HJ so it is simply a fallacy that there is weak evidence.

What weak evidence are you talking about?

Which source of antiquity mentioned Jesus of Nazareth who was NOT a Ghost or that he walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud?

There is neither weak not terrible evidence for an HJ.

The NT is evidence for Ghost man [Jesus of Nazareth]

The Questers are still looking for evidence after hundreds of years.

 

[Belz...]

Your post is just a total contradiction.

Explain.

 

[Belz...]

By the way, you never claimed to have had evidence for HJ so it is simply a fallacy that there is weak evidence.

No, that's you continuing to deliberately misunderstanding what I said.

What weak evidence are you talking about?

The existence of Christianity and its beliefs, for instance.

Which source of antiquity mentioned Jesus of Nazareth who was NOT a Ghost or that he walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud?

Mark.