Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

Very nice.

Can you link to anything publicizing the petition such as TV appearances or media publications?

I wonder what sort of person would write what you have written here about Obama's dog. While I have refrained from even using the term guilter or hater because the pejorative nature of the terms ruins any possibility for discussion you write such ugly things.

Yes, we are all aware that at some point Raf had a video of porn on his computer alleged to have animals. Even if true do you believe it has anything to do with being a murderer? While I've refrained from that particular strain of video I'm sure it has been viewed by millions.

Does saying things like that give you some kind of charge?

It's interesting now that we have the testimony that I am having a hard time finding much information on this. I don't see it mentioned in Massei and the only testimony I find is that of Leonardo Fazio who says there was one porn video but he doesn't remember seeing it or knows what was on it.

Maybe you or anyone else can help me track down the original source of this information.

 

[Rolfe]

There you go Rolfe, you get the anglo version and the, rather longer and more informative, LJ one! I agree with you both and Charlie about the usefulness of these comparators. Charlie seems to know dozens and dozens of cases. I only know a few (and clearly not that well) but they all come in very handy. In the Tabak/Jefferies case we see the police wielding great power. They can destroy lives and can even kill with impunity (ask Colin Stagg or the family of Jean Charles de Menezes) and can wilfully ignore cases that seem unimportant to them (Stephen Laurence). It is a corollary of this great power that those using it must be seen to be wise and judicious and an aspect of that is that they are not allowed to be wrong. Not often anyway.

We can see exactly the same process at work in extending Jefferies' police bail for months as was in play in keeping Patrick's bar closed. The Italian version is more extreme. It may be just a question of catching up. Before PACE the police enjoyed enormous powers of framing and used them to good effect to nail people they just knew were up to something. Maybe Italy is just a few decades behind us in realising that these powers must be effectively curbed, not just by writing down some rules and doing nothing when they are broken.

ETA I hasten to say framing did not stop with PACE, obviously. It became rather more difficult. Not just taped interviews but also custody officers with a duty to record the goings on in the cell area and other things, the need for which ought to offer a clue about what was going on before.

Another point that's worth mentioning, though it's a little tangential, is the tendency to go after a spouse or close relative - especially someone who has discovered the crime or reported the person missing. Joanna Yeates's bidie-in was extremely lucky. He was the one who discovered that she was missing and reported her disappearance to the police. They did home in on him at the beginning, but it seems that his mobile phone connection data and stuff like that proved he really had been away for the weekend and had been nowhere near the scene of the crime.

A young woman was murdered very near where I used to work, in the 1980s. Again her husband (of only a few weeks) reported her missing and they really did give him the third degree. It must have been terrible for him, lost his brand-new wife and the police are obviously suspecting him of murder. He was a butcher to trade, which probably didn't help. They only gave up on him when they found the body, and the circumstances of the murder tied it in to a serial killer they were already hunting.

Then again, there's Sion Jenkins. Discovered Billie-Jo as she was breathing her last, so they decided to pin it on him without any evidence or any motive.

The concentration on Amanda and Raffaele, with Amanda being the person close to Meredith who had reported her missing, could be seen as another one in this series.

"Jumping to conclusions" is probably the fundamental cause of most miscarriages of justice, if you really drill down to it.

Rolfe.

 

[Desert Fox]

Also, as the police, keep your mouth shut until your have solid evidence.
Even if you have a strong suspect, do not report that to the media.

One problem I see is that at least one defendant (with the Norfolk Four) asked for a lawyer and in effect was denied one by Detective Ford.

 

[Antony]

FBI homicide numbers kind of prove the theory that most murders were committed by someone close to the victim. [hiliite]But personally, I think the numbers are the result of a self-fullfilling prophecy,[/hiliite] and the way Homicide Investigations work sort of proves this (Homicide/ Relationship Data for 2010):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl10.xls

I've tried to make this point before. Too many of the miscarriages of justice I know of have stemmed from the police investigating someone close to the victim for essentially arbitrary reasons. In the Madeleine McCann case, for example, not only were the family accused but there was also an English fellow who just happened to have a house nearby; of course this didn't lead to any arrests but it shows a typically wrong-headed focus.

Then if someone like this is wrongly convicted, it adds to the statistics - while a remote culprit is much more likely to escape altogether, so would be underrepresented in conviction figures.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

spliced into the footage?

It's interesting now that we have the testimony that I am having a hard time finding much information on this. I don't see it mentioned in Massei and the only testimony I find is that of Leonardo Fazio who says there was one porn video but he doesn't remember seeing it or knows what was on it.

Maybe you or anyone else can help me track down the original source of this information.

pp. 162-163 in Honor Bound says that a picture of a pig was "crosscut" into a porn film. Apparently Raffaele watched it with some friends.

 

[RoseMontague]

pp. 162-163 in Honor Bound says that a picture of a pig was "crosscut" into a porn film. Apparently Raffaele watched it with some friends.

Thanks, Chris. Just another over exaggerated smear then? Anybody else have anything on this from a reliable source?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

misinformation

Thanks, Chris. Just another over exaggerated smear then? Anybody else have anything on this from a reliable source?

I think it is a smear, yes. Someone should have interviewed Raffaele's friends a while ago and perhaps obtained the name of the film, but I doubt anyone has. This case has been beset by a great deal of misinformation and disinformation.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Horrible and disgusting.

I agree 100%. How much time has he actually done.

 

[RoseMontague]

I agree 100%. How much time has he actually done.

Six years and now starting day release for four more, then he is completely out is the way I am reading things.

 

[JREF2010]

-


-

Rudy's obviously a coward.

I can understand why TJMK stands behind him as they do.

Now Raffaele, there's a real man, a real hero, in my opinion,

d

-

Rudy is scum, he's also to be free soon. I hope Maresca is happy with himself, he can explain his manipulation reasoning to his own victims.

The PGP include a lot of loyalists, police loyalists, who will defend the uniform and remain ignorant and /or in denial of the interrogation, the lying, the corruption of the Perugia Lying Squad. Mignini, Monica and others all part of the gestapo like misplaced loyalty. Some are probably just honest cops who have no comprehension that police would do such dishonest things, maybe they've never worked with a Mignini or a Monica Napoleoni?

That Norfolk link Caper posted was amazing, in seeing how the case was manipulated, the motives changing, and in the end the false confessions the heart of the case, all the DNA was garbage, all logic ignored.
And sadly Jurors who probably have never heard of interrogations and false confessions, created by a sadistic cop like Ford/Mignini.

Has Sollecito filed to the ECHR about the interrogation?

 

[anglolawyer]

Another point that's worth mentioning, though it's a little tangential, is the tendency to go after a spouse or close relative - especially someone who has discovered the crime or reported the person missing. Joanna Yeates's bidie-in was extremely lucky. He was the one who discovered that she was missing and reported her disappearance to the police. They did home in on him at the beginning, but it seems that his mobile phone connection data and stuff like that proved he really had been away for the weekend and had been nowhere near the scene of the crime.

A young woman was murdered very near where I used to work, in the 1980s. Again her husband (of only a few weeks) reported her missing and they really did give him the third degree. It must have been terrible for him, lost his brand-new wife and the police are obviously suspecting him of murder. He was a butcher to trade, which probably didn't help. They only gave up on him when they found the body, and the circumstances of the murder tied it in to a serial killer they were already hunting.

Then again, there's Sion Jenkins. Discovered Billie-Jo as she was breathing her last, so they decided to pin it on him without any evidence or any motive.

The concentration on Amanda and Raffaele, with Amanda being the person close to Meredith who had reported her missing, could be seen as another one in this series.

"Jumping to conclusions" is probably the fundamental cause of most miscarriages of justice, if you really drill down to it.

Rolfe.

Bogus scientific evidence is in there somewhere too, but I agree - your point is more fundamental. People get a hunch - I just know X did it - and they stay with it. Maybe it was useful on the African plains several hundred thousand years ago and maybe it is useful in most places now but it's not great in detecting criminals. Still, never mind. We have the trial process to keep everything tickety boo and that works just fine.

 

[Grinder]

Sometimes people do and say things to escape the moment. Not really thinking things through to a final outcome or conclusion.
Perhaps by naming Patrick she believed she would be free to go and her and RS could really nail down that alibi and get their stories straight in the interim.

Or it was just as she and the police chief described it. The police had "figured it out" from the text massages and they questioned her until she "buckled" and told them what they "knew to be correct"

This isn't Occam's Razor. This is making the known pieces fit. Without knowing what the police chief said and without knowing that the session was not recorded she characterized the interrogation consistent with the chief's description.

Did she tell them what they wanted to hear to end the unpleasantness? Sure but only because the police demanded it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bogus scientific evidence is in there somewhere too, but I agree - your point is more fundamental. People get a hunch - I just know X did it - and they stay with it. Maybe it was useful on the African plains several hundred thousand years ago and maybe it is useful in most places now but it's not great in detecting criminals. Still, never mind. We have the trial process to keep everything tickety boo and that works just fine.

What is amazing is the comment from some, "What? You expect me to believe in a wide ranging conspiracy?"

That is a bit of a canard, though. It actually doesn't take a wide ranging conspiracy... and the fact that there are wrongful convictions from investigation, to prosecution, to conviction to long-term incarceration should put to rest those sorts of arguments.

But back to point.

It bears repeating - if police are always right (my experience is that police are mostly right!), there would be no need for investigations, trials or appeals.

The case which bears repeating is the Susan Nelles case in Canada, a nurse accused to murdering children in a cardiac unit of an Infants Hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Nelles

After Susan Nelles was arrested, the deaths stopped. (It never crossed the minds of investigators that an unknown perp may have stopped because of Nelles' arrest!)

However, it was the reason for Nelles' arrest which was at interest in the eventual Royal Commission....

Nelles asked for legal counsel when she was arrested. Her request was interpreted by the investigating police officers to be an indication of her guilt, but the court later ruled that such requests should not be interpreted as evidence of guilt.

The story went that the arresting cop knocked on her door and asked if he could come in. She said "yes", meaning he then did not need a warrant. Over coffee she began to get the idea that he suspected her and she asked for a lawyer. He arrested her.

Can you imagine what would have happened to either of Knox, Sollecito, or Lumumba if they'd insisted on a lawyer? All three had been threatened with violence, and in Lumumba's case one paper reports him saying he'd been beaten. Knox had been slapped simply for not remembering what the cops needed her to remember.

 

[Grinder]

Thud.

I had no idea and frankly without the source for such claims I file that tidbit under urban myth

Factoid, factoid

I'm waiting for the source as well but wasn't there a parliament member that was a porn star?

Ilona Staller (born 26 November 1951), widely known by her stage name, Cicciolina, is a Hungarian-born Italian porn star, politician, and singer. Staller continued to make hardcore pornographic films while a member of parliament. She is famous for delivering political speeches with one breast exposed.​

Put in her name and horse - I'm not checking the sites

 

[kcoh]

I totally agree, GWCarver!
As it's what, 7:43am in Italy right now,
I hope to read translations from Italian news sources that Meredith Kercher's Family lawyers Maresca, Perna and others are raising HELL over this, TODAY!

It kind of disgusts me how Guede only got 16 years for sexual assault and murder and only has to serve, what, 6 or 7 of them before release? Meanwhile, people only care about "getting" Knox and Sollecito - people who obviously did not do it. So when it finally comes to light that they did not do it despite the media storm, will the Kercher family apologize? What about the Italian justice system? Will they be compensated for having to spend 4 years of their life in prison? Just curious.

 

[kcoh]

I also have a question about the U.S. law. If a burglar murders someone during a burglary or breaking-and-entering into their home, isn't that considered felony murder?

 

[Diocletus]

Reproducibility

JunkScience.com ‏@JunkScience · 17m

House hearing on EPA secret science: Statistician testifies 'we are living in an era of catastrophic failure of scientific reproducibility.'

 

[Dan O.]

Was Fazio prosecuted for contempt because he didn't remember if Raffaele had watched pornographic films 4 years earlier? The transcript makes it sound like Mignini was pounding on the tables every time the witness said he doesn't remember, even for little things:

QUESTION - And Raffaele came walking ?
ANSWER - I do not know .
QUESTION - She stated that she had an Audi A3 dark , other dispute. Here we go forward sentences after sentence and I 'm doing protests , saying that she is now the opposite of what he said a year ago.
ANSWER - I honestly do not remember.
DEFENSE - AVV . THE WIDOW - Excuse the comment is not correct " reverse ," said today that he does not remember the case of that reported in the statements , so it is not.
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - This would evaluate the Assize Court , I am doing the challenges !
<page 153>
PRESIDENT - I'm sorry, we avoid a " reverse" , we take note of the objections and responses , then the feedback you will.

 

[RoseMontague]

Was Fazio prosecuted for contempt because he didn't remember if Raffaele had watched pornographic films 4 years earlier? The transcript makes it sound like Mignini was pounding on the tables every time the witness said he doesn't remember, even for little things:

​

I wonder if he was pressured originally. Mignini is clearly not very pleased. It reminds me of the store clerk's testimony in some ways (regarding the underwear purchase). Now they are behaving normally, it was no big deal.

 

[kcoh]

Was Fazio prosecuted for contempt because he didn't remember if Raffaele had watched pornographic films 4 years earlier? The transcript makes it sound like Mignini was pounding on the tables every time the witness said he doesn't remember, even for little things:

​

How does watching porn prove he murdered someone? I am sure that's rather common for guys his age back then.