Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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kcoh said:
Well, I don't understand why she would accuse Patrick if she were trying to get herself off the hook for murder. The police would eventually find that he had nothing to do with it. What then?
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I completely agree, kcoh. It makes no sense whatsoever for Amanda to have accused Patrick, without a little help from her "friends." There would be no reason for her to be thinking about him, much less to draw him into the crime, whether or not she was involved. Anyone who is honest must reach the conclusion that the police accused Patrick for reasons of their own.
 
kwill said:
Well, since the Pro-guilt Italian who calls himself Macchiavelli is not here, I'll tell you what s/he said recently about that question.

As I understand it, the guilter position is that when the police kept harping on that text message from Patrick, Amanda saw "an open window" and chose to jump through it. The idea is that Guilty Amanda was realizing that they were closing in on her, and so when the police seemed to be interested in her boss, she thought it might be a way out of her problem. Window, open, leap.

They would say that she didn't really know if he had an alibi, and that if he hadn't, she might have succeeded in pinning the murder on him.

Of course, what actually happened is that Amanda (the real one) was desperately trying to say what they wanted to hear so they would stop punishing her. She had spent a week being terrified because someone had just killed her friend a few yards from her own bedroom, and she was only in the police station that night because she hadn't wanted to stay alone at Raffaele's flat. She had no way of knowing what had happened at the villa because she wasn't there, but over the course of that long night, she was convinced (at least for a little while) that the police must know something she did not. And so, as she'd been doing all that week, she tried to help them.
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There was more to it than that, although I do agree that pleasing the police was part of it. I'm going to link this post as it includes all the requisite links, but just scroll down to where the highlight is and read from there. Right where it starts "Now I'm going to post this, note that it is from a law enforcement link" and then explains why it is so very important not to try to get someone to admit to something they don't remember doing. This is a known phenomena and why a law enforcement legal entity keeps this on their site. What happened to Amanda is not that unusual given the conditions, police can and have used their authority to convince people that things they didn't do or witness actually happened.
 
Desert Fox said:
There is no proof against hard solipsism. Just find that it is not gainful to consider it without any evidence supporting it.

Just simply say though that I am as sure as I can be that they did not do it.
Maybe there is some conceivable way but I certain have seen no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele did it.
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I didn't expect to get into a epistemological discussion today....

There is always the philosophical position that we never can know or be sure of anything. But I like to think that there some absolutes...unless we are in the world of the Matrix.....and in that case, it doesn't matter any way.

With me, I'll accept as fact that gravity makes things fall. That water freezes at 32 degrees Farenheit and boils at 212 degrees. That amps times volts equals watts.

Is it possible that Amanda got together with a guy she knew for only one week and together with a guy that she had barely met together murdered her roommate for no reason? I have yet to see any real evidence that would make me believe that. Amanda doesn't seem crazy or violent in any way. And neither does Raffaele. While they may have been screwing like rabbits the few days before Meredith's murder, I see no evidence that Raffaele turned in to Amanda's puppy dog who would do anything for her including murdering her roommate. And Rudy? How in the hell does the world think that a guy that was breaking into homes and barely knew Amanda, became so enamored with Amanda that he would kill Meredith for her?

If there was any real solid evidence, I'd have to believe this unbelievably STUPID scenario. But there isn't any. Almost all the clear evidence points to Rudy and only Rudy.

There certainly isn't anything close to proving that Amanda and Raffaele murdered Meredith BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

That makes them innocent in my book. Or at least a big fat NOT GUILTY.
 
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Kaosium said:
Once he was in police custody his story 'evolved.' He added a part where while taking a dump he heard them arguing (in Italian!) about money. After he came out and he was accosted by the (once left-handed) Italian man who might have been Raffaele he claimed he went to Filomena's window and saw Amanda's silhouette outside.
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As the first sentence of your paragraph, above, says . . . "Once he (Guede) was in police custody his story evolved' " Then Guede says he went to Filomena's window. I ask the reader to note that Guede does not know for sure what evidence the police may have found of him inside the flat and since he entered through Filomena's window it is possible that there is forensic evidence of him touching the window. So in this evolved claim, he went to Filomena's window . . .

I wish the police were better at their job and had done a serious forensic examination of Filomena's window area. They might have found the physical evidence of Guede that he is concerned they may have found, which is why he created a false alibi for himself to explain his presence at the window - acknowledge he was at the window but claim falsely that his purpose in being at the window was not a criminal purpose.
 
acbytesla said:
I didn't expect to get into a epistemological discussion today....

There is always the philosophical position that we never can know or be sure of anything. But I like to think that there some absolutes...unless we are in the world of the Matrix.....and in that case, it doesn't matter any way.

With me, I'll accept as fact that gravity makes things fall. That water freezes at 32 degrees Farenheit and boils at 212 degrees. That amps times volts equals watts.

Is it possible that Amanda got together with a guy she knew for only one week and together with a guy that she had barely met together murdered her roommate for no reason? I have yet to see any real evidence that would make me believe that. Amanda doesn't seem crazy or violent in any way. And neither does Raffaele. While they may have been screwing like rabbits the few days before Meredith's murder, I see no evidence that Raffaele turned in to Amanda's puppy dog who would do anything for her including murdering her roommate. And Rudy? How in the hell does the world think that a guy that was breaking into homes and barely knew Amanda, became so enamored with Amanda that he would kill Meredith for her?

If there was any real solid evidence, I'd have to believe this unbelievably STUPID scenario. But there isn't any. Almost all the clear evidence points to Rudy and only Rudy.

There certainly isn't anything close to proving that Amanda and Raffaele murdered Meredith BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

That makes them innocent in my book. Or at least a big fat NOT GUILTY.
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I think we can see we agree. I see both as innocent.

Watching "The Confessions" right now. Next we know, some Italian city will hire Detective Ford for interrogating American and British suspects.
 
Kaosium said:
Yes, it's the difference between lying and being mistaken.
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And, I will point out, being mistaken by the manipulative assertions of the police interrogators who falsely claim you were there and are lying about not being there, and that you just don't remember it because you were traumatized, similar to amnesia, like Interpreter Donino was after her injury.
 
return to the second memoriale

Vibio said:
Oh right... her famous memorandum of the 7th "I didn't lie when I said the murderer might be Patrick."
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Vibio,

Amanda wrote, "I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can’t know who the murderer was because I didn’t return back to the house." Apparently you were channeling the second memoriale after all (not the first), but you still left out the key part.
 
Skilled Interrogators?

Kestrel said:
It's an open secret that Italian police rough up suspects during interrogations. It is also considered a serious crime to claim that the police abuse suspects. In effect, this gives the police a rather free hand. All they need to do is avoid recording the interrogation and it becomes the word of the police against a suspected criminal. We all understand which side the courts will take in that event.

Amanda was charged with a crime for daring to say the police slapped her. Her parents were charged with a crime for daring to repeat that story, as were several Italian journalists.

There have been cases where the Italian police got carried away and beat a suspect to death during interrogation. These are about the only cases where officers end up facing charges for abuse.
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From Amanda Knox herself:
Page 103, Waiting to Be Heard

"Police officer Rita Ficarra slapped her palm against the back of my head, but the shock of the blow, even more than the force, left me dazed. I hadn't expected to be slapped. I turned around to yell, "Stop!"-my mouth half-way open-but before I even realized what had happened, I felt another whack, this 1 above my ear. She was right next to me, leaning over me, her voice as hard as her hand had been. "Stop lying, stop lying", she insisted.

Stunned, I cried out, "Why are you hitting me?"

"To get your attention" she said.

I have no idea how many cops were stuffed into the cramped, narrow room. Sometimes there were 2, sometimes 8-police coming in and going out, always closing the door behind them. They loomed over me, each yelling the same thing: "You need to remember. You're lying. Stop lying!"

"I'm telling the truth", I insisted. "I'm not lying." I felt like I was suffocating. There was no way out. And still they kept yelling, insinuating."


Gosh, this soooo reminds me of the skillfull interrogation of The Norfolk 4, sailors in The United States Navy, of which I FINALLY, just yesterday, watched the FRONTLINE Special video from a link by a posting from Caper1144* elsewhere:
Caper1144 said:
She was broken by a skilled interrogator... who told her that they knew Patrick was involved... that she had amnesia and asked to try and remember... they broke her.... it's pretty simple.... an unrelated case... but it will help you understand why anything that went on in that interrogation room is completely useless
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LINK:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/


WHAT?!?
Innocent people admitting they committed a rape and murder that they did not do, that only 1 man did???

Gosh, I soooo wish that Rudy Guede had the ballz as Omar Ballard did to state to a court of law that he, only he, commited that horrible brutal rape and murder that other innocent people were charged and convicted for!

The comparison to the brutal murder case we discuss are astonishing!
Skilled interrogators my arse!

Watch that story, linked above, and learn something, in case you have not yet done so!
RW


(*)-Thanks Caper,
As you're an old timer here,
I'm glad you've joined the conversation and the TRUE Quest for Justice for Meredith Kercher here at The JREF!!!
 
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Desert Fox said:
I think we can see we agree. I see both as innocent.

Watching "The Confessions" right now. Next we know, some Italian city will hire Detective Ford for interrogating American and British suspects.
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The Frontline special? I haven't seen that in a while. If I remember correctly that was about the Norfolk 4?

You know, I can see how the Italians suspected Amanda and Raffaele. And I don't blame them for questioning them. And with the idea that Raffaele's shoes matched the prints in Meredith's bedroom they had a damn good reason to arrest them.

But when it became clear that those weren't Raffaele's shoe prints and the arrest of Rudy, they needed to reverse directions. From then on, they were idiots. And maybe, corrupt idiots.
 
Caper said:
http://www.shewired.com/opinion/2014/02/10/op-ed-trial-media-case-amanda-knox

Anyone up for shredding the garbage above? I gotta work at 5am... But I will try a bit tommorow.
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:boggled:

The assertion that Knox left handprints on the victim is inexcusable. As is the assertion that the 2011 appeal overturned the conviction on procedural issues.

Like most pro guilt people, she doesn't bother mentioning the all night interrogation sessions. Nor the fact that the case was declared closed before the handprint was analyses and matched to Rudy Guede.

Did the author hire Harry Rag as a researcher, or just pluck the details from the supermarket tabloids on her own?
 
RWVBWL said:
Gosh, I soooo wish that Rudy Guede had the ballz as Omar Ballard did to state to a court of law that he, only he, commited that horrible brutal rape and murder that other innocent people were charged and convicted for!
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One of the other things stated was that Omar Ballard showed a history leading up to this and so did Rudy Guede. Give you a good bet he will continue again once released but now likely more skilled at it.
 
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I wish for the same thing

RWVBWL said:
Gosh, I soooo wish that Rudy Guede had the ballz as Omar Ballard did to state to a court of law that he, only he, commited that horrible brutal rape and murder that other innocent people were charged and convicted for...
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RWVBWL,

I completely agree, but his lies have served him well.
 
Patrick thinks Amanda destroyed his life.

Caper said:
http://www.shewired.com/opinion/2014/02/10/op-ed-trial-media-case-amanda-knox

Anyone up for shredding the garbage above? I gotta work at 5am... But I will try a bit tommorow.
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It's a challenge to find a sentence that does not have an error. But I did find this interesting: "After the Jan. 31 conviction was announced, Lumumba told London’s Channel 5 News, 'I’d like to tell Amanda that she’s completely destroyed my life. She made me, my family, my friends suffer. She should be writing to me to apologize.'" If the author knew what fact-checking was, she could have discovered what we found out today on this thread, namely that she apologized on a number of occations. So Patrick thinks Amanda destroyed his life? He needs to get a job, support his family and stop helping to destroy hers.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
It's a challenge to find a sentence that does not have an error. But I did find this interesting: "After the Jan. 31 conviction was announced, Lumumba told London’s Channel 5 News, 'I’d like to tell Amanda that she’s completely destroyed my life. She made me, my family, my friends suffer. She should be writing to me to apologize.'" If the author knew what fact-checking was, she could have discovered what we found out today on this thread, namely that she apologized on a number of occations. So Patrick thinks Amanda destroyed his life? He needs to get a job, support his family and stop helping to destroy hers.
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The others of the Norfolk Four were able to forgive Joseph Dick. . . .
Instead blaming Ford. Perhaps Lumumba needs to consider who he she really blame?
 
amazingly bad

Kestrel said:
:boggled:

The assertion that Knox left handprints on the victim is inexcusable. As is the assertion that the 2011 appeal overturned the conviction on procedural issues.
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Possibly the cartoon was responsible for creating this myth. The claim that Knox left a shoe print or fooprint there is equally invalid. Truly a wretched article.
 
Caper said:
http://www.shewired.com/opinion/2014/02/10/op-ed-trial-media-case-amanda-knox

Anyone up for shredding the garbage above? I gotta work at 5am... But I will try a bit tommorow.
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I have to go watch Sherlock.

This is the supreme irony of articles like this:

In none of the media blitz surrounding Knox as victim in the U.S. has the real victim, Kercher, been a part of the story. Her bruised and cut, torn and slashed body has not been discussed. Instead we have seen Knox, her blue eyes staring into the middle distance, her dark blonde hair falling over her eyes as she plays guitar or sits at a computer writing (she’s pursuing a degree in creative writing).
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The title of the article? Trial by Media - The Case of Amanda Knox
 
The medical student who lived next door to Raffaele, Jovanna Popovic, came to Raffaele's apartment twice that night because she had wanted Raffaele to drive her to the station at midnight to pick up a suitcase. She returned at 8:45 p.m. to tell him that her suitcase had not made the bus. I think this was after the two had finished watching Amelie. Then there was activity on his computer at 9:10 p.m. and it was used again at 9:26 p.m. to play season 1, episode 1 of Naruto. I know both Amanda and Raffaele were into Japanese cartoons, comics, and what not.

So since Meredith died between 9:00 p.m. and 9:30 p.m., do PGP think Amanda and Raffaele ran back to her place to meet up with Guede to murder Meredith, and then ran back to Raffaele's place to watch Naruto, and then came back to Amanda's place in the morning to clean up?
 
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Homicide Investigation Theory

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acbytesla said:
The Frontline special? I haven't seen that in a while. If I remember correctly that was about the Norfolk 4?

You know, I can see how the Italians suspected Amanda and Raffaele. And I don't blame them for questioning them. And with the idea that Raffaele's shoes matched the prints in Meredith's bedroom they had a damn good reason to arrest them.

But when it became clear that those weren't Raffaele's shoe prints and the arrest of Rudy, they needed to reverse directions. From then on, they were idiots. And maybe, corrupt idiots.
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Agreed. Almost every single serial killer investigation I have ever studied, friends and close relatives, and those who find the body are always one step below "persons of interest".

FBI homicide numbers kind of prove the theory that most murders were committed by someone close to the victim. But personally, I think the numbers are the result of a self-fullfilling prophecy, and the way Homicide Investigations work sort of proves this (Homicide/ Relationship Data for 2010):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl10.xls

So interviewing those close to the victim is routine. What do you know. Who do you think did this? Where were you? What was your relationship... etc. etc. Then, check people's alibis and criminal history. Doing this to narrow down the list of suspects.

While waiting for forensics, anyone who doesn't have a good alibi gets brought in for a second interrogation, sometimes leading to polygraphs.

The whole point is to not prove someone guilty, but to eliminate suspects until there's only one left. That's the theory anyway.

It seems that in this case, they picked their suspects and instead of trying to eliminate them, they tried to prove they were the ones from the beginning, before they even had any of the forensics back?

d

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