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How much time do we really have?

Has the confusion about Hemen-hotep has been cleared up, then?
 
pakeha said:
Has the confusion about Hemen-hotep has been cleared up, then?
Click to expand...

For most of us, it has. However, despite the fact that Michaela Heuttner, curator of the Vienna Art Museum's Egyptian Collection has said that the name on the door-stop in question is Hemen-hotep, meaning "Hemen (the falcon god) is pleased" or "mercy of Hemen," mikeb768 still insists it proves there was an important Egyptian official at the time of the Exodus (an unsubstantiated event, BTW) named Haman. We have pointed out to him that the original Haman was the villain of the Book of Esther. However, he ignores any evidence that contradicts his views.

As an example of this, consider the moon being split in two. According to Islamic legend, Muhammad split the moon in tow at his mere word, then, again by his word alone, fused the two halves back together. I have pointed out that , had such a thing happened during the lifetime of Muhammad it should have been visible to people in Japan, China, India, Persia, the Byzantine Empire and to literate monks and priests in Europe. Yet, none of them mention what would have been a striking and even terrifying sight. The only thing he can come up with is an unsubstantiated, indeed disputed Islamic text saying that a certain king from India converted to Islam upon seeing the moon split in two (One text on the king in question even states that he converted to Buddhism, not Islam). I have also pointed out to mikeb768 that there should be considerable physical evidence, visible to space probes that have taken extensive pictures of the moon, of it having been split in two and fused again. That there is no such evidence doesn't faze him. Finally, I have pointed out that - at least in certain translations the verse in the Qur'an about the moon being split in two (Q 54:1) speaks of it happening at "the last hour," i.e. as a future event. The Qur'an does not mention Muhammad splitting the moon in two as a past event. In the face of all this contradictory evidence mikeb768 asserts that the story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two is a true story, based on nothing more than an Islamic legend.
 
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TimCallahan said:
Faith can be rational, irrational or a leap of faith. For example, if someone borrows $5.00 from me and pays it back promptly, then likewise borrows and pays back increasing sums of money, $10.00, then $20.00, etc.; then if he asks to borrow $100.00, and I lend it without asking for any documentation of the loan, I'll be lending it on faith, but it will be a faith based on past evidence supporting my faith that he will pay me back. If, on the other hand, eh repeatedly borrows increasing sums of money, never paying me back, and I lend him $100.00 based on faith that he will repay me, that faith would be irrational.

You have faith that Muhammad split the moon in two then fused the pieces back together sometime in the 600s. Such a faith would be rational were it supported by some evidence of the moon having been split in two, such as many people across at least half the world at the time observing the event and / or physical evidence observed by space probes. You do not have such evidence. Yet, in the face of evidence that nobody observed such an event during the lifetime of Muhammad, a lack of any evidence of such a fracture on the moon, when there should be, and even the fact that the verse in the Quran referring to the moon being split in two places it at the last hour; you have faith that Muhammad did this deed. That is irrational faith.



This is the link I originally posted and of which you said it told of Cheraman Perumal. If you will recall, I pointed out that it is only in one unsubstantiated Islamic source that this man is supposed to have converted to Islam because he saw the moon split in two. Other sources have him converting to Islam in the 800s, and still others have him converting to Buddhism. Against this alleged evidence, we have people who would have seen this event in Europe, the Byzantine Empire, the Sassanid Persian Empire, India, China, Korea and Japan. Yet, nobody in any of these countries makes a note of such an event. Even if they had rejected it as mere sorcery -attributing it to Satan, they would have noted the occurrence. They didn't. The most logical conclusion is that it didn't happen.



I don't recall agreeing with much of anything in the OP regarding Quranic predictions.

As to the hadiths, consider that some of the appeal of Islam is the simplicity of the faith and its lack of conundrums. One doesn't have to believe in one god who's three persons, but still one god. Also, one doesn't have to believe in a man who's a God but he's still a man etc. Also, other than leading a decent life, tIslam only demands that one affirm there is one God and that Muhammad is his messenger; one has to pray five times a day, one has to fast from dawn to dusk during the month of Ramadan; one has to give a certain percentage of one's wealth to the poor and, finally, if one can, one is to take the pilgrimage to Mecca. If one cannot pray five times a day due to special conditions or cannot fact due to health issues, one can do a charitable act to make up for this. Further, one is not to go into debt to make the Hajj. All this is simple and clear cut. Now consider Hadith Qudsi 6:

“The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I fought for You until I died a martyr.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is courageous.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Qur’an. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Qur’an for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is learned.’’ And you recited the Qur’an that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is a reciter.’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I left no path [un-trodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is open-handed.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.”

So, according to this hadith, one has to worry about whether or not one had the right motivation. You can do all the right things and still be cast into hellfire. It's the Christian Calvinist trap all over again.

Also, isn't it true that both Sunnis and Shiites agree on whet's in the Qur'an? Yet, I've heard they disagree on which hadiths are valid. Correct me if I'm wrong on this point.
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So you flatly reject all of the predictions which are mentioned (and fulfilled) in the OP, despite evidence to the contrary? Many would consider such a position to be equally irrational (according to your claim) as that of the position of faith, maybe even more so.

There is no proof that Jesus was born miraculously, but it is still accepted on faith (taking into consideration the source of the information, and the impact which the event had, and a number of other things). But even things which there is proof for you still reject, why is that?
 
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TimCallahan said:
View Post
Has the confusion about Hemen-hotep has been cleared up, then?
Click to expand...
For most of us, it has.
However, despite the fact that Michaela Heuttner, curator of the Vienna Art Museum's Egyptian Collection has said that the name on the door-stop in question is Hemen-hotep, meaning "Hemen (the falcon god) is pleased" or "mercy of Hemen," mikeb768 still insists it proves there was an important Egyptian official at the time of the Exodus (an unsubstantiated event, BTW) named Haman. We have pointed out to him that the original Haman was the villain of the Book of Esther. However, he ignores any evidence that contradicts his views.

As an example of this, consider the moon being split in two. According to Islamic legend, Muhammad split the moon in tow at his mere word, then, again by his word alone, fused the two halves back together. I have pointed out that , had such a thing happened during the lifetime of Muhammad it should have been visible to people in Japan, China, India, Persia, the Byzantine Empire and to literate monks and priests in Europe. Yet, none of them mention what would have been a striking and even terrifying sight. The only thing he can come up with is an unsubstantiated, indeed disputed Islamic text saying that a certain king from India converted to Islam upon seeing the moon split in two (One text on the king in question even states that he converted to Buddhism, not Islam). I have also pointed out to mikeb768 that there should be considerable physical evidence, visible to space probes that have taken extensive pictures of the moon, of it having been split in two and fused again. That there is no such evidence doesn't faze him. Finally, I have pointed out that - at least in certain translations the verse in the Qur'an about the moon being split in two (Q 54:1) speaks of it happening at "the last hour," i.e. as a future event. The Qur'an does not mention Muhammad splitting the moon in two as a past event. In the face of all this contradictory evidence mikeb768 asserts that the story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two is a true story, based on nothing more than an Islamic legend.
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Right.
Thanks for the summing up, TimCallahan.


Rincewind said:
Ah Mark Twain... One of the most quotable writers ever...
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Craig B said:
A true literary genius. Underrated.
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Right!
 
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pakeha said:
Right.
Thanks for the summing up, TimCallahan.
Right!
Click to expand...

If Egyptian archeologist translate the artifact to say: "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep"
Why are you trying your best to befuddle people into believing that the Hemen who was mentioned on the ancient doorjamb was a "falcon–god"? Is there anything that you can provide to support your claims?

mikeb768 said:
The link from the museum actually does provide English translation, which seems to refer to a person by the name of "Hemen" who may have been the overseer of stonemasons.

Taken from the translation of the tablet:
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"

[Quran 28:38]
"And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars." [Quran 28:6, 8, 38; 29:39; 40:24, 36]

I am by no means an expert in the pronunciation of Egyptian hieroglyphics, but I think that Walter Wreszinski who seems to be much more knowledgeable in this area has a pretty good case.
Click to expand...

Were you not the same individual who mentioned something about honesty earlier in the thread? Is the truth too painful to accept?

Maybe it's because of the domino effect which must occur in any rationally minded individual; if Haman was a real person who worked for the Pharaoh of Egypt as mentioned in the Quran, then how did this information (which we were only able to unlock recently) come to be known by Muhammad?


And if Haman is real? Was Moses real? Were the Plagues of Egypt real? Is God real? Is The Day of Judgment real? Are Heaven and Hell real?

Or is this all just a bad dream? :jaw-dropp
 
mikeb768 said:
So you flatly reject all of the predictions which are mentioned (and fulfilled) in the OP, despite evidence to the contrary? Many would consider such a position to be equally irrational as that of the position of faith (maybe more so).
Click to expand...

If you will go back to my post #259, you will find that the only predictions I did not dispute were that the Eastern Roman Empire would eventually defeat the Sassanid Persians, that Abu Lahab would die without accepting Islam and that the Muslims would eventually enter the holy mosque, i.e. in Mecca. As I pointed out to you then there was a 50% probability that any one of these would be true. Also, we have no way of knowing when in his career Muhammad made these predictions. So, if he predicted one day the Muslims would enter Mecca at a time when his power was on the rise, there's hardly anything supernatural about such a prediction. Likewise, his prediction that Abu Lahab, a staunch enemy of Muhammad's would die an unbeliever hardly requires divine inspiration.

The rest of the predictions you claim were fulfilled clearly were not.

mikeb768 said:
There is no proof that Jesus was born miraculously, but it is still accepted on faith (taking into consideration the source of the information, and the impact which the event had, and a number of other things). But even things which there is proof for you still reject, why is that?
Click to expand...

Again, I do not reject things for which there is proof. So, tell me, why do you cling to the idea that Muhammad split the moon in two and fused it again sometime between 610 and 632 when there is no support for it. Again, observers from Japan to Ireland should have witnessed this event. Yet, the only thing you can come up with is an Islamic text that claims, without any substantiation, that an Indian king converted to Islam when it happened. Again, the moon has been photographed by space probes multiple times. Yet, they fail to find evidence that the moon was split in two and fused again less than 2,000 years ago.

Again, your claim there is evidence at the Vienna Fine Art Museum of an ancient Egyptian official named Haman has been refuted. The official's name was Hemenhotep. Muhammad took Haman, a fictional character from the Book of Esther, and arbitrarily added him to the Exodus story. This has been pointed out to you over and over. Yet you reject the evidence that doesn't fit the answer you want.
 
mikeb768 said:
So you flatly reject all of the predictions which are mentioned (and fulfilled) in the OP, despite evidence to the contrary? Many would consider such a position to be equally irrational (according to your claim) as that of the position of faith, maybe even more so.

There is no proof that Jesus was born miraculously, but it is still accepted on faith (taking into consideration the source of the information, and the impact which the event had, and a number of other things). But even things which there is proof for you still reject, why is that?
Click to expand...
He was born miraculously. You accept the miracle on faith. He died naturally, being crucified by the Romans. I believe that because it is very plausible. Do you believe it? If not, why not?
 
Donn said:
It wasn't that sort of moon...
Regarding the sort that it was, I think you'll agree, there's a certain halfness to it.

It's a miracle!
:p
Click to expand...
.
Most impressive when seen through a glass pane...
 
mikeb768 said:
If Egyptian archeologist translate the artifact to say: "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep"
Why are you trying your best to befuddle people into believing that the Hemen who was mentioned on the ancient doorjamb was a "falcon–god"? Is there anything that you can provide to support your claims?
Click to expand...
He was a god. And shaped like a falcon too. Here's a description of a piece of sculpture, from the Louvre
The inscription on the back of the silver-plated wooden base identifies this bird of prey. This is not the great Horus, but the god Hemen, the patron of the city of Hefat, present-day el-Moalla in Upper Egypt. This deity is rarely mentioned; indeed, this is the only example of a sculpture in the round of this god. Laboratory analyses have revealed that a roughly carved stone falcon was reused and gilded, then placed on a simple wooden base that was plated in silver, along with the sculpture of Taharqa.
Click to expand...
http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/statuette-taharqa-and-falcon-god
Were you not the same individual who mentioned something about honesty earlier in the thread? Is the truth too painful to accept?
Click to expand...
No, and no.
Maybe it's because of the domino effect which must occur in any rationally minded individual; if Haman was a real person who worked for the Pharaoh of Egypt as mentioned in the Quran, then how did this information (which we were only able to unlock recently) come to be known by Muhammad?
Click to expand...
It didn't. Hmn htp of the inscription didn't work for Pharaoh, but was the overseer of a temple quarry. It was not this name that was known to Muhammad, but the name of the character in the Book of Esther. Muhammad made a blunder and thought Haman was a minister of the King of Egypt, instead of Persia. Simple error.

[qimg]http://s28.postimg.org/oxh3z1j2h/dominos.jpg[/qimg]
And if Haman is real? Was Moses real? Were the Plagues of Egypt real? Is God real? Is The Day of Judgment real? Are Heaven and Hell real? (In my view none of this is real, so there!) You've got to believe every single word, or the whole thing blows up. Weird. Modern religious people are rarely like that. Do you believe the sun sets, or ever has set, in a muddy pond or pool? It's in the Quran too. (Sura 18:86.) So believe that, or no Heaven and Hell! [/quote]Or is this all just a bad dream? :jaw-dropp[/QUOTE] Must seem like that when all your cherished beliefs are challenged.
 
mikeb768 said:
If Egyptian archeologist translate the artifact to say: "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep"
Why are you trying your best to befuddle people into believing that the Hemen who was mentioned on the ancient doorjamb was a "falcon–god"? Is there anything that you can provide to support your claims?
Click to expand...

Concerning the hilited area, I said nothing of the kind. What I said was that the name Hemen-hetep or Hemen-hotep means, "Hemen is pleased (with this child)." The suffix hotep following the name of a god was common in Egypt, as in the case of Ammonhotep, a name held by a number of Pharaohs. It means, "Ammon is pleased (with this child)". Names that are statements or invocations of a given god were common in the ancient world, as in Nebuchanezzar a later form of Nebuchadrezzar, the biblical variant of that king's original name, Nabu-kudduri-user, which means, "Nabu, protect the boundary stone." We find it also in biblical names, such as Elijah. The "jah" ending is an anglicized variant of "Yah," a shortened version of Yhaweh. El is a Hebrew word meaning "god." putting an "i" after it puts it into a possessive form, "my god". Elijah means, "My god (is) Yahweh."

mikeb768 said:
Were you not the same individual who mentioned something about honesty earlier in the thread? Is the truth too painful to accept?

Maybe it's because of the domino effect which must occur in any rationally minded individual; if Haman was a real person who worked for the Pharaoh of Egypt as mentioned in the Quran, then how did this information (which we were only able to unlock recently) come to be known by Muhammad?
Click to expand...

You're the one who's having trouble accepting the truth - as in the case of the false story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two.

mikeb768 said:
[qimg]http://s28.postimg.org/oxh3z1j2h/dominos.jpg[/qimg]
And if Haman is real? Was Moses real? Were the Plagues of Egypt real? Is God real? Is The Day of Judgment real? Are Heaven and Hell real?

Or is this all just a bad dream? :jaw-dropp
Click to expand...

We've had entire threads on the historicity of the Exodus, or the lack thereof. At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll just say that any event so momentous as the Exodus, which would have involved repeated epidemics and disasters for the Egyptians, as well as the destruction of Egyptian power, would have left an archaeological record as well as an historic record. Joshua's conquest should also have left the archaeological record of great walled cities violently destroyed in a short period of time, either in the 1200s or the 1400s BCE - the two time periods in which various schools have placed the Exodus / Conquest. However, there is no such record, just as there is no record of Egypt beset by plagues, the destruction of the nation's chariot forces or any other event of the Exodus. About the best anyone can come up with is a photo of a chariot wheel in the Red Sea. Show me about 600 such wheels in a single area, and I'll take notice.

As to Moses, the name could be a remnant of an Egyptian name. Several Egyptian names ended in the suffix mose (pronounced MOH-seh), meaning "child of." For example, Thutmose means, "Child of Thoth." A variant of this is, messes, as in Ramesses, "Child of Ra". Thoth was an Egyptian deity of pottery, craftsmanship and knowledge. Ra was an Egyptian sun god. Also, two names that recur among the tribe of Levi in the Jewish scriptures are Hophni and Phineas, which seem to be Egyptian names. Thus, it is possible there was a very minor event, the escape of a band of slaves from Egypt, that could have been the kernel of the Exodus myth.
 
mikeb768 said:
If Egyptian archeologist translate the artifact to say: "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep"
Why are you trying your best to befuddle people into believing that the Hemen who was mentioned on the ancient doorjamb was a "falcon–god"? Is there anything that you can provide to support your claims?
Click to expand...
He was a god. And shaped like a falcon too. Here's a description of a piece of sculpture, from the Louvre
The inscription on the back of the silver-plated wooden base identifies this bird of prey. This is not the great Horus, but the god Hemen, the patron of the city of Hefat, present-day el-Moalla in Upper Egypt. This deity is rarely mentioned; indeed, this is the only example of a sculpture in the round of this god. Laboratory analyses have revealed that a roughly carved stone falcon was reused and gilded, then placed on a simple wooden base that was plated in silver, along with the sculpture of Taharqa.
Click to expand...
http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/statuette-taharqa-and-falcon-god
Were you not the same individual who mentioned something about honesty earlier in the thread? Is the truth too painful to accept?
Click to expand...
No, and no.
Maybe it's because of the domino effect which must occur in any rationally minded individual; if Haman was a real person who worked for the Pharaoh of Egypt as mentioned in the Quran, then how did this information (which we were only able to unlock recently) come to be known by Muhammad?
Click to expand...
It didn't. Hmn htp of the inscription didn't work for Pharaoh, but was the overseer of a temple quarry. It was not this name that was known to Muhammad, but the name of the character in the Book of Esther. Muhammad made a blunder and thought Haman was a minister of the King of Egypt, instead of Persia. Simple error.
[qimg]http://s28.postimg.org/oxh3z1j2h/dominos.jpg[/qimg]
And if Haman is real? Was Moses real? Were the Plagues of Egypt real? Is God real? Is The Day of Judgment real? Are Heaven and Hell real? (In my view none of this is real, so there!) You've got to believe every single word, or the whole thing blows up. Weird. Modern religious people are rarely like that. Do you believe the sun sets, or ever has set, in a muddy pond or pool? It's in the Quran too. (Sura 18:86.) So believe that, or no Heaven and Hell!
Or is this all just a bad dream? :jaw-dropp
Click to expand...
Must seem like that when all your cherished beliefs are challenged.
 
Mohammed's "split-moon" was not observed by the same cultures in the area with astronomers always looking to finding anything to speak soothly and portentously about, as Joshua's "long day" was missed by those same cultures.
Just plot devices and artifacts in ripping good yarns.
 
TimCallahan said:
Concerning the hilited area, I said nothing of the kind. What I said was that the name Hemen-hetep or Hemen-hotep means, "Hemen is pleased (with this child)." The suffix hotep following the name of a god was common in Egypt, as in the case of Ammonhotep, a name held by a number of Pharaohs. It means, "Ammon is pleased (with this child)". Names that are statements or invocations of a given god were common in the ancient world, as in Nebuchanezzar a later form of Nebuchadrezzar, the biblical variant of that king's original name, Nabu-kudduri-user, which means, "Nabu, protect the boundary stone." We find it also in biblical names, such as Elijah. The "jah" ending is an anglicized variant of "Yah," a shortened version of Yhaweh. El is a Hebrew word meaning "god." putting an "i" after it puts it into a possessive form, "my god". Elijah means, "My god (is) Yahweh."



You're the one who's having trouble accepting the truth - as in the case of the false story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two.



We've had entire threads on the historicity of the Exodus, or the lack thereof. At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll just say that any event so momentous as the Exodus, which would have involved repeated epidemics and disasters for the Egyptians, as well as the destruction of Egyptian power, would have left an archaeological record as well as an historic record. Joshua's conquest should also have left the archaeological record of great walled cities violently destroyed in a short period of time, either in the 1200s or the 1400s BCE - the two time periods in which various schools have placed the Exodus / Conquest. However, there is no such record, just as there is no record of Egypt beset by plagues, the destruction of the nation's chariot forces or any other event of the Exodus. About the best anyone can come up with is a photo of a chariot wheel in the Red Sea. Show me about 600 such wheels in a single area, and I'll take notice.

As to Moses, the name could be a remnant of an Egyptian name. Several Egyptian names ended in the suffix mose (pronounced MOH-seh), meaning "child of." For example, Thutmose means, "Child of Thoth." A variant of this is, messes, as in Ramesses, "Child of Ra". Thoth was an Egyptian deity of pottery, craftsmanship and knowledge. Ra was an Egyptian sun god. Also, two names that recur among the tribe of Levi in the Jewish scriptures are Hophni and Phineas, which seem to be Egyptian names. Thus, it is possible there was a very minor event, the escape of a band of slaves from Egypt, that could have been the kernel of the Exodus myth.
Click to expand...

I will be back at some point in the future, just quite busy atm.

In the mean time I leave you with this, The Atheist! & May God bless all of those who are sincere, both in this life as well as in the next. Peace.
 
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