Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Whether they were involved or not, would any recordings from jail cells (or, more likely, visitor areas) be admissible in an Italian, or any other court? Would the authorities want anyone to know they do it routinely?

Yes, that's where the 'I was there' comment came from that was used in court. Incidentally they used another tape of her talking with her mother in prison from November 10th, 2007 where she said she felt bad about what happened to Patrick for the calunnia charge.

They do it routinely and use them in court, the part I cited from Massei (PMF page 15 IIRC) about 30 pages back included an acknowledgement of that.

ETA: It was PMF page 20

Massei PMF 20 said:
(These voice recordings were made at Police Headquarters in Perugia, appropriately prepared, where the co-tenants of Meredith Kercher, the boys of the apartment below that one occupied by the murdered girl, and the English girlfriends of the English student involved in the Erasmus Programme, had gathered on the afternoon of November 2, 2007. Other voice recordings were made during meetings in prison between Amanda and her parents. Finally, phone tappings had been made of the fixed and mobile phone services of the family of Raffaele Sollecito.)
 
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I'll bet they fell asleep at this job...

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Another oddity is that if AK and RS were involved in the murder, why didn't any evidence of their guilt show up in the thousands of hours of recordings from their jail cells, conversations with their lawyers and phone calls?
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Not only that, but they had to pay someone to listen to those thousands of hours. I wonder how much that bit into their stupid little budget?

d

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Whether they were involved or not, would any recordings from jail cells (or, more likely, visitor areas) be admissible in an Italian, or any other court? Would the authorities want anyone to know they do it routinely?

You mean "useable" not "admissible." Italy does not appear to have any admissibility rules for evidence.

You can bet that if the intercepted conversations were incriminating, they would find their way into the trial court proceedings. If they're exculpatory . . . I bet they would disappear.
 
Whether they were involved or not, would any recordings from jail cells (or, more likely, visitor areas) be admissible in an Italian, or any other court? Would the authorities want anyone to know they do it routinely?

If they had anything solid to stick on them, it would show up in the media whether legal or not.
 
IIRC the evolving took more than one turn. First he had the story of the one-armed left handed guy and no Amanda. Then a woman's silhouette and then it became Amanda.

Yes, I believe you're correct. However I think it was Mignini who kept referring to that as Amanda which caused the court to start doing the same.
 
If they had anything solid to stick on them, it would show up in the media whether legal or not.

As Diocletus pointed out, there's really no rules of admissibility outside the prosecutor's discretion. The judge can object, but that can also be appealed by the prosecutor thus they don't do much objecting. It's not like an American court where the judge is like a god and is truly running the show.
 
As Diocletus pointed out, there's really no rules of admissibility outside the prosecutor's discretion. The judge can object, but that can also be appealed by the prosecutor thus they don't do much objecting. It's not like an American court where the judge is like a god and is truly running the show.

The American court system is very screwed up but it certainly is not for the same reasons as the Italian courts. . . .Granted some reasons are the same.
 
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You've never done a TV interview have you?

How do you know they haven't stated their alibis over and over, but it was always edited out?

Another old one I want to respond to. . . .Actually almost caught up :D

Many skeptics talk about being interviewed on paranormal shows
They are interviewed for hours but only like a minute and a half are used
 
Yes. But I must say that in the picture of the chief of police when he made his famous case closed announcement (which the PGP will not attempt to explain) he looked very tired, which clearly means he spent the night beating Amanda.

I'm not sure about that or suggesting that. Amanda doesn't say she was beaten. She says she was smacked on the back of the head. That doesn't constitute a beating. It may have scared the hell out of Amanda.

I've seen those videos and pictures of Amanda and Raffaele standing outside the cottage. I don't know what to make of them. They remind me of exactly what they are, People that have just been made aware that their friend and roommate was murdered and they don't have a clue how to process it. I've seen that look before...well not after someone was murdered but after when a relative died. It's a sort of a shocked...what does this mean???.did this really happen???...is this a nightmare???....what is everyone else thinking??? who did this?? it could have been me?? "stop thinking about yourself " think about Meredith..oh no..I can't think about that ...etc..etc..etc. .is this a nightmare? Am I going to wake up? What are the police doing? Who are all these people. Over and over and over again. A million thoughts going through your head and you can't stop any of them.

Maybe the kids were up most of the night having sex but told the police they were sleeping as they were embarrassed and then didn't want to change their story because they would be accused of yet another lie.
Maybe ... I mean, who really tells the cops that we were screwing like rabbits?
If they had murdered Meredith and spent the night awake, they would have been self-conscious about how they looked and would have covered their appearances with a lie about making love all night.

Or they would have just went to Gubbio.
 
According to Raffaele, they stopped him from leaving. Would you have tried to leave in that circumstance?

They stopped him when? On November 4th? The 3rd? When? And how did they stop him? I'm really curious about this. Cops can tell you lots of things..and they can do things too. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have the authority to do them.

What if Raffaele and or Amanda declared that they were going to leave Perugia or Italy. Can the police "legally stop you without a court order of some kind"? In the US, they can get a material witness order that can restrain your movements or even have them put you in jail. I'm assuming that the Italy has something similar...but I don't know.

Do you know Dan??
 
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So who does run an Italian courtroom? What is the judge's function?

The Italian Court System is based upon the inquisitorial concept, the judge is more a mediator and the defense kind of a Devil's Advocate to ensure the incorruptible prosecutor doesn't overlook anything. That works fine as long as the prosecutor is an honest inquisitor into the truth. Elements of the adversarial system (like ours) have been implemented in reforms, but from what I've seen that hasn't helped much.

Here's an article on how it goes in Italian Courtrooms sometimes, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are not alone in being persecuted by a corrupt prosecutor whose legacy in this case is still being felt.

From the Foreign Policy article:

Anna Momigliano Foreign Policy 12/10/09 said:
He also claims that prosecutors routinely present evidence as proof. "Recently we've followed the case of Romulus Mailat, a young man accused of raping and murdering a woman in Rome," Malini says. "The prosecutors [said] the defendant had blood under his fingernails, assuming it was the victim's. Oddly enough, they didn't think of taking a DNA test. The defendant's lawyer had to ask for it. When finally the test was taken, the prosecutors claimed it was unreliable because the blood had been reportedly altered by water, and they refused to show the results." Mailat was convicted.

Legal experts also share concerns about Italy's bar for admissibility. Il Giornale, a conservative newspaper, for instance, recently published an interview with Marco Morin, a Venice-based firearms expert who declared he no longer wanted to work in Italian courts. "In the United States, federal judges must study a 637-page manual in order to be able to evaluate [forensic] evidence," he told the newspaper. "Here, they accept everything without questioning, as long as it comes from the institutional laboratory."
 
But she STILL hasn't paid him for damages. Nice.
The biggest cause of damages is that the bar was kept closed for six months after PL had been freed after alibi had been promptly confirmed. Who and why did this happen? This may lead to some idea why the police were so keen to incriminate PL. Certainly the police (or whoever) should be responsible for the financial loses of PL due to the bar being kept closed, this is clearly not something AK can be held responsible for she had long recanted.
 
Sorry Anglo, I'm not sure I see the point of this post. Are you saying that Jefferies was most likely the killer? Or just pointing out that the visual exterior means little.

90 percent of the photos that I saw of Ted Bundy, he looked like normal and good looking, like the guy next door. Not strange and not a killer. But then after a while, book covers etc would show pictures of him that had that creepy look. But you know the had to look for just the right one.


Anglo, as so often, has his tongue in his cheek.

Jefferies was completely innocent. He wasn't even enormously eccentric, he only affected an eccentric appearance. He was a retired school teacher with no history of any particular weirdness other than a penchant for mauve hair.

He was monstered by the press, but was released without a stain on his character when they found no actual evidence against him. Anglo, I didn't know Tabak had tried to finger Jefferies - where did you get that from?

Rolfe.
 
The Italian Court System is based upon the inquisitorial concept, the judge is more a mediator and the defense kind of a Devil's Advocate to ensure the incorruptible prosecutor doesn't overlook anything. That works fine as long as the prosecutor is an honest inquisitor into the truth. Elements of the adversarial system (like ours) have been implemented in reforms, but from what I've seen that hasn't helped much.

Read an article from Boston University
Looks like it is a composite between the common European and Anglo types
Seems to unfortunately fair poorly because of it.
An independent judge might be able to wade through the crap but not any jury without help.
 
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Well, I can say that I 100% believe in their innocence. I am no longer confused or on the fences about it.
 
Read an article from Boston University
Looks like it is a composite between the common European and Anglo types
Seems to unfortunately fair poorly because of it.
An independent judge might be able to wade through the crap but not any jury without help.

Here's a record of how their system fared before the ECHR in the seven years previous to the murder. The one most relevant to my point is 'Right to a Fair Trial' in which they are by far the worst amongst EU nations.

They had a good better year in 2011 and the results from that have been bandied about in certain quarters as a 'rebuttal' to their dismal history, I think they were better than Ukraine that year, but then again that's the year they acquitted Raffaele and Amanda. By 2012 they were the worst amongst EU nations and had dipped below Ukraine again.

Point being is Italy's legal system is more representative of nations like Russia, Turkey and the Ukraine than Western European nations and they have the violations to prove it.
 
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