Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I've not heard one report that she cried. IIRC quite the contrary, people remarked that she did not.
So why the puffy exhausted looking eyes?

HotNostril,

Paola and Filomena reported that she cried (see Murder in Italy, pp. 77-78), and there is a photograph of Amanda where she appears to be wiping a tear away with Raffaele nearby. A link was posted at Websleuths and perhaps here also a few months ago.

From the testimony Luca Altieri (human translations)

Altieri: Yes, yes, yes, after a while, you know, after the Red Cross car arrived, the Scientific Police and the Carabinieri arrived, all of them, after a while one of the two medics, I believe, the driver of the Red Cross, it wasn’t an ambulance, he came out of the crime scene, let’s say, from inside the house, speaking to one of the Carabinieri that was there outside and he described a bit about what had happened, saying… referring to the both the fact the her throat had been cut and that she had also fought back, let’s say, and from this I understood this thing.
Mignini: OK, do you remembe if Sollecito spoke to you in the Police Station, did he speak of this fact? What did he say to you?
Altieri: look, the only exchange of words was while we were going to the Police station in the car, let’s say, where he asked me if she was dead. I was a bit shocked at the question, I responded “yes”. And then after he asked me, if I remember correctly, how she died, something of this sort, and so I explained to him this thing that I’d heard outside.

Mignini: Listen, when… do you remember if you saw Amanda cry in the Police Station?
Altieri: Amanda had already cried outside the house, also going to the Police Station in the car, yes, at a certain point…
Mignini: when did she cry?
Altieri: Now, after I… she asked me this… I don’t remember well if she asked how, with what she had been killed, basically, how they had cut her throat, and when I gave her the answer to this question she burst out crying.

Carlo Della Vedova: however earlier you said that Amanda cried the first time when you were outside the house, then also in the car.
Luca Altieri: Yes, it’s there that… its there that I saw him [Raffaele] console her, outside the house when she was crying.
Carlo Della Vedova: and did it seem right that she behaved that way or did it seem strange?
Luca Altieri: no, it seemed normal

The claim that Amanda showed no emotion or did not cry is a guilter myth. This testimony also shows how Amanda found out what was seen in the murder room.
 
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Dear god, the irony of that! She was sitting there yelling for help, and all she had to do was stand up and walk out the door.

No wonder she's so hard on herself now.

I'm not sure they would have really allowed her to leave. They could have found some pretext for immediately detaining her. Lying about drug use by everone in the cottage, whatever?

At some point Raffaele was searched and his pocket knife was discovered. That was apparently before he was made a suspect. The knife became the basis of a charge of bringing a weapon into a police station. The police could have found anyting to charge Amanda as well to prevent her from getting up and leaving the interrogation.
 
But she STILL hasn't paid him for damages. Nice.

Why on earth would you pay him for damages? I would never think of suing someone who was broken down in an interrogation room.... well unless it was Bill Gates... and only then it would be because he could spare the cash.
 
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For me, it's the eyes, but I think it's more about the shadows. They make her eyes look creepy and I would be lying if I said she looked ok to me.

Narcissism must be the new ying for the old yang, self esteem. You remember the old 'new' phrase, 'you don't have enough self esteem', well now, it's 'you have too much narcissism' instead.

Amanda likes that about herself, that she says what she thinks and what she thinks is mostly about herself, that is not necessarily a bad thing and it definitely doesn't prove she's a murderer,

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Whaever Amanda thinks of or how she behaves now is shaped by the terror that she has endured since Nov 2007. I have not seen any description of her before Nov 2007 that would have made me feel that she, a 20 year old college student, was not nice or that she behaved odd.

I am impressed that she worked several part-time jobs (at different times) in her first two years of college in order to save money to study abroad and then when she got to Perugia she looked for a part-time job. I think she did that not for fnancia reasons but primarily to be able to interact with Italians and learn the language better. That impresses me. (How many of the British girls found a part-time job to better interact with Italians or help meet their expenses?)

The British girls who were closer friends with Meredith returned to Britain. Several others transferred to other Italian programs elsewhere in Italy. Amanda intended to remain in Perugia and continue her studies there. She also did not leave Perugia even temporarily because she thought it important she be available to help the police.
 
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Why on earth would you pay him for damages? I would never think of suing someone who was broken down in an interrogation room.... well unless it was Bill Gates... and only then it would be because he could spare the cash.

Because the court awarded him the damages. It's normal to pay those, unless you want to be seen as being in contempt of court. Failure to do so also makes any apology look extremely shallow, to put it mildly.
 
Because the court awarded him the damages. It's normal to pay those, unless you want to be seen as being in contempt of court. Failure to do so also makes any apology look extremely shallow, to put it mildly.

The court never should have awarded damages... she did nothing wrong. She was wrecked in an interrogation room. She never would have made the accusation otherwise.

Let me ask you? If an Italian court tried to make you pay Patrick damages... would you pay?
 
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HotNostrils, you asked 10 or so hours ago if Amanda cried. Several people here have responded with specifics including police testimoney that she cried.

I would like to ask you several questions:
Why did you believe she did not cry?
Do you now understand that she did cry as stated by police or her Italian housemates?
Do you believe she may have also cried in private out of public view?
Do you think on this issue you have been misinformed by media stories or claims made on PGP sites?
Have you learned anything from this?
 
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Because the court awarded him the damages. It's normal to pay those, unless you want to be seen as being in contempt of court. Failure to do so also makes any apology look extremely shallow, to put it mildly.

Perhaps she feels the court is in error. I think the fact that she has filed an appeal on the conviction of this charge to the ECHR speaks to that. My personal opinion is that the people responsible for any damages to Patrick are Mignini and the cops involved. I wouldn't pay him either.
 
The court never should have awarded damages...

Well let's not get into shoulds and shouldn'ts - a court of law DID IN FACT award damages and if Knox had any integrity she would have paid Lumumba (from her book advance for example, before settling any other debts). Mercifully we haven't reached the stage yet where defendants can choose which court awards they can happily ignore.
 
Perhaps she feels the court is in error. I think the fact that she has filed an appeal on the conviction of this charge to the ECHR speaks to that. My personal opinion is that the people responsible for any damages to Patrick are Mignini and the cops involved. I wouldn't pay him either.

Me either.
 
Because the court awarded him the damages. It's normal to pay those, unless you want to be seen as being in contempt of court. Failure to do so also makes any apology look extremely shallow, to put it mildly.

Supercal, the conviction for Calunia and the damages awarded are in appeal right now with the ECHR, to which Italy is a treaty signatory state (which makes it Italian law). That is the proper legal process. It may be determined that she is not guilty of Calunia and no damages are due from Knox to Lumumba.

Are you comfortable with that?
Do you feel the Italian interrogators who led Knox to believe that Lumumba was the killer are partially or entirely responsible for that?
(Hint: the process the police used on Knox to alter her sense of reality is known as the Reid technique.)
 
Perhaps she feels the court is in error. I think the fact that she has filed an appeal on the conviction of this charge to the ECHR speaks to that. My personal opinion is that the people responsible for any damages to Patrick are Mignini and the cops involved. I wouldn't pay him either.

Regardless of any appeal that might be pending with the ECHR (and frankly I think they will toss it out as being beneath consideration - but I could be wrong) her plain duty is to have paid Lumumba until such time as the court award is made null and void (i.e. likely never). As I've said, failure to do so just makes any weasel-worded apology from Knox absolutely meaningless.
 
Supercal, the conviction for Calunia and the damages awarded are in appeal right now with the ECHR, to which Italy is a treaty signatory state (which makes it Italian law). That is the proper legal process. It may be determined that she is not guilty of Calunia and no damages are due from Knox to Lumumba.

Are you comfortable with that?
Do you feel the Italian interrogators who led Knox to believe that Lumumba was the killer are partially or entirely responsible for that?
(Hint: the process the police used on Knox to alter her sense of reality is known as the Reid technique.)

See my reply to RoseMontague.
 
Well let's not get into shoulds and shouldn'ts - a court of law DID IN FACT award damages and if Knox had any integrity she would have paid Lumumba (from her book advance for example, before settling any other debts). Mercifully we haven't reached the stage yet where defendants can choose which court awards they can happily ignore.

Very moral and righteous. I must assume you bring this estimable approach to all walks of life and not just this one. In fact, in my jurisdiction and perhaps yours too, a judgment debt does not outrank other debts. It differs from them only in being enforceable. The absence of proper defence funding (itself a considerable source of unfairness) has burdened her with debt and she must pay the most pressing or rely on the indulgence of her creditors for the time being.

Has Patrick taken steps to enforce the award? I have not read anything to that effect. Maybe those advising him have made him aware that there are no reports of Amanda living in the lap of luxury, awash with money. And she is appealing the callunia verdict on grounds which appear to many to be strong. If her appeal succeeds it seems likely the conviction and any associated civil award will be set aside as being vitiated by unfairness. It seems sensible in those circumstances to await the outcome of the ECHR application before moralising, especially as the facts strongly suggest, as others have pointed out, that Patrick's real complaint lies against the cops and Mignini for leaping to conclusions ahead of the evidence and then lacking the balls to admit their error.
 
Regardless of any appeal that might be pending with the ECHR (and frankly I think they will toss it out as being beneath consideration - but I could be wrong) her plain duty is to have paid Lumumba until such time as the court award is made null and void (i.e. likely never). As I've said, failure to do so just makes any weasel-worded apology from Knox absolutely meaningless.

No. What is meaningless is your argument.
 
Regardless of any appeal that might be pending with the ECHR (and frankly I think they will toss it out as being beneath consideration - but I could be wrong) her plain duty is to have paid Lumumba until such time as the court award is made null and void (i.e. likely never). As I've said, failure to do so just makes any weasel-worded apology from Knox absolutely meaningless.

Funny... I don't think Patrick could look like more of an ass in my opinion. He went through it. He was called racist names by a corrupt police force. Yet he can't understand how someone would cave to that pressure? I wouldn't pay that idiot a dime.
 
Regardless of any appeal that might be pending with the ECHR (and frankly I think they will toss it out as being beneath consideration - but I could be wrong) her plain duty is to have paid Lumumba until such time as the court award is made null and void (i.e. likely never). As I've said, failure to do so just makes any weasel-worded apology from Knox absolutely meaningless.

Who cares? Are you a debt collector representing him?
 
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