Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[AmyStrange]

Some more of that heave ho...

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If we accept the defense claim about the screensaver logs and other evidence it shows that Raffaele never really went to sleep that night until 6am. Is that when you think Amanda went out?

You are supposing that Amanda went out without Raffaele's knowledge. You are supposing that Rudy went back to the cottage where's there is a dead girl and he doesn't attempt to clean up his traces, wash the body, take the clothes, wipe down anything he might have touched, mop the floor where he tracked blood and where he fell on his butt in the kitchen, toss the bathmat in the pool of blood, flush the toilet. Rudy did none of this. He had not returned to the cottage.

Rudy had already searched most of the cottage before Meredith came home. He had found Meredith's cash and had been through Laura's drawer at the other end of the cottage. He was ready to leave when he took a bathroom break. If he needed more cash he would go to another student apartment. This one was simply too hot.

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I think it's possible Raffaele did something so the screensaver wasn't activated, dozed off for a few minute, woke up and does something else so the screensaver isn't activated again and a couple minutes later Amanda comes back into the room and he infers she's been there all the time.

I believe that's possible, although highly unlikely, but possible.

And as far as getting everything done before he left to get rid of the phones, You maybe right, but there's still a possibility (maybe not probable) he left to get rid of the phones while Meredith was dying, then when coming off his adrenalin high, decided he needed to do a better search for money or drugs, went back, saw no lights or any movement or activity at all, went in, and while he is in searching through Meredith's room, Amanda comes home for just that one thing,

d

ETA I believe it's more probable that Rudy would come back to search for more cash rather than cleaning up, but that's me
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[Grinder]

I believe the common use of the phrase had changed many years ago. Jimmied is also understood^* to reffer to interfering with the locking mechanism such as wedging a piece of wood into the latch so the door will appear to close but doesn't lock.

[*] except by hard nosed dictionary thumpers

give me a cite.

she didn't use the term to refer to jimmying the lock but rather to prop the door open. so even if the term jimmy can be used to refer to messing with the lock that's not what she was suggesting.

do you think that amanda jimmied the lock at raf's? do you think that she then unjimmied it so no one would notice?

put in jimmy a door or lock into google and read the results or go read a dictionary

 

[acbytesla]

I don't necessaily see myself as doing any better.

Most people probably wouldn't. But both Laura and Filomena got lawyers immediately and the British girls left the country.

This case though. . .The hero of the case sentances Amanda Knox to four years for lying while she was effectively forced into it.

That troubled the hell of out me too.

But the whole callunia thing in Italy is just crazy stupid.

 

[Desert Fox]

Most people probably wouldn't. But both Laura and Filomena got lawyers immediately and the British girls left the country.

I read on this thread that Amanda's mom told her to get on a train and go to Germany (I guess before the interogations)
Problem is that I have been not able to find any references but sounds like very smart advice.

I guess the reality is that if you even witness a crime, you better get a lawyer

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

There is a cite. It's in the same book ("Journey into Darkness", or such as) I believe you quoted from earlier in this thread. So if you have the book, you'll find it in there. I don't have a copy handy and don't remember the page.

How did Douglas describe the accuracy of his profile of Morin in whatever it was you read?
.
.

What he wrote in 1997, in Journey into Darkness:

The reason Shephard and Fitzpatrick were so interested in what I had to say, I soon learned, was that one of the subjects they had interviewed fit my profile almost exactly.

He also wrote:

Do I still think Guy Paul Morin is guilty of Christine Jessop’s murder? That’s for a court of law to decide, not me. No one in my unit ever claims to be able to deliver up the name and identity of a particular UNSUB. All we can do is describe the type of individual we think did it based on the information we’re given and what kind of pre- and post-offense behavior we would expect to see. In that way, we hope to be able to help investigators narrow down their list of suspects. I still believe firmly that her killer was someone who lived in the neighborhood, knew her well, was interested in music, and was an immature loner with a self-image problem who hung around with people younger than himself.

That describes the profile, not Morin.

Douglas got involved in this because the cops had no idea where to even start their investigation into who killed this little girl. Her body was found badly decomposed, months after she went missing. Douglas delivered a profile. The cops misled everyone about the quality of their case against Morin.

The case remains unsolved. Lots of people are wrong, and nobody is right.

 

[andreajo]

I read on this thread that Amanda's mom told her to get on a train and go to Germany (I guess before the interogations)
Problem is that I have been not able to find any references but sounds like very smart advice.

I guess the reality is that if you even witness a crime, you better get a lawyer

Amanda says this in Waiting to be Heard. She then says she was told that she could not go, as she was 'helping with the investigation'.

 

[acbytesla]

I read on this thread that Amanda's mom told her to get on a train and go to Germany (I guess before the interogations)
Problem is that I have been not able to find any references but sounds like very smart advice.

I guess the reality is that if you even witness a crime, you better get a lawyer

I don't know that you have to get a lawyer for any and every interaction with the police. I can understand why some people might though. But the moment they walk me into an interrogation room is the moment, my mouth goes shut except to say. "I'd like to continue speaking, but I need some legal advice. bye."

 

[AmyStrange]

Jimmied

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give me a cite.

she didn't use the term to refer to jimmying the lock but rather to prop the door open. so even if the term jimmy can be used to refer to messing with the lock that's not what she was suggesting.

do you think that amanda jimmied the lock at raf's? do you think that she then unjimmied it so no one would notice?

put in jimmy a door or lock into google and read the results or go read a dictionary

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it's used in slang, but obviously that's not gonna be enough for you Grinder, is it? Remember that I did use the word "jimmied":

FROM: http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/jimmy

"Also: "jimmied" meaning tampered with... "

 

[Desert Fox]

Amanda says this in Waiting to be Heard. She then says she was told that she could not go, as she was 'helping with the investigation'.

Guess an objcet lesson is "We need your help" translates to "you are a suspect."

 

[Strozzi]

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I think it's possible Raffaele did something so the screensaver wasn't activated, dozed off for a few minute, woke up and does something else so the screensaver isn't activated again and a couple minutes later Amanda comes back into the room and he infers she's been there all the time.

I believe that's possible, although highly unlikely, but possible.

And as far as getting everything done before he left to get rid of the phones, You maybe right, but there's still a possibility (maybe not probable) he left to get rid of the phones while Meredith was dying, then when coming off his adrenalin high, decided he needed to do a better search for money or drugs, went back, saw no lights or any movement or activity at all, went in, and while he is in searching through Meredith's room, Amanda comes home for just that one thing,

d

ETA I believe it's more probable that Rudy would come back to search for more cash rather than cleaning up, but that's me
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I really doubt that once Rudy left the apartment he returned. He had just killed someone and left a bloody mess there. He sliced the inside of his fingers on his knife hand. He knew that three other women lived in the flat, and he could expect that one or several of them would be back before late - perhaps even with a boyfriend. Rudy got out successfully and every bit of distance he put between the cottage and himself was a good thing for him. He also got rid of the hot phones.

If he needed more money, Rudy could steal a purse from a foreign student at the discos or on the buses. There are other places he could burglarize. Just the night before, Rudy went to the disco with two female Spanish students who lived in his building. He could steal from them easily; all he needed to do was watch when the leave the building for another evenng out.

 

[acbytesla]

Amanda says this in Waiting to be Heard. She then says she was told that she could not go, as she was 'helping with the investigation'.

That's true.... but she need to go to the US Consulate. That's what you do abroad. I'm really curious if the police can stop you from leaving without some kind of court order? Anyone know? Anglo??

 

[Caper]

Are you talking about Harry Rag the most prolific guilt poster of them all?

I'm sure that there are hundreds of people convinced of Amanda's guilt. In fact it might even extend into the thousands. But I wouldn't even begin to understand just how many there really is. There are people that have multiple monikers. I can think of both PIP and PGP that use different handles for different sites. I'm pretty much the same one every where.

I'm with you about the your mystification. I feel the same way. Personally, I think most of them are people that were sold on Amanda's and Raffale's guilt and have no way to walk back from their jump to conclusion. But if a genius like Einstein has a difficult time admitting that he was wrong...what makes you think ordinary mortals don't suffer from the same problem?

It's actually one of the more troubling things I've had to come to terms with in my life..... that people... very intelligent, can be so blinded and stupid.

9/11 conspiracy theories is where I believe I was first exposed to this... about 12 years ago... so I was in my early 20's. I just couldn't believe how so many intelligent people could believe in something so obviously preposterous.... and I'm not talking about the Bush must have knew people... I can understand how a rational mind could come to that conclusion (I didn't)........ I'm talking about the No-planers.... or the people who believed it was a missile that actually hit the pentagon................. It kind of scares me that a person can have these beliefs... and yet still be able to get themselves dressed in the morning... or drive a car...... or hold down a good job.

 

[Desert Fox]

As far as burglers, the appear to sometimes return
http://blog.frontpointsecurity.com/...otal-of-five-times-in-one-week-before-arrest/

Not sure about when combined with rape and muder

 

[Strozzi]

Guess an objcet lesson is "We need your help" translates to "you are a suspect."

This case points out that there is a need for foreign students studying in Italy and elsewhere, and all travelers for that matter, to have immediate access to a local attorney who is fully capable of handling the preliminary aspects of a criminal matter and accident, and who speaks English.

Just as there is health insurance and travel insurance, there should be some sort of legal insurance that a student or other traveler purchases. Everyone traveling abroad should carry a wallet card in the local language and in their language which they present to the police which invokes their legal rights and protections, provides a 24 hour local legal number, and immediate phone access to a lawyer. The presentation of the card should stop all police questioning until the lawyer is present.

$10 or $20 per month might cover the service. Universities should insist their students have it when studying abroad.

 

[andreajo]

That's true.... but she need to go to the US Consulate. That's what you do abroad. I'm really curious if the police can stop you from leaving without some kind of court order? Anyone know? Anglo??

Gosh! You don't suppose they lied to her?

It was Rita Ficarra who told her she might need to stick around for a few months. "Just wait a few days for the magistrate, honey... Then we'll know for sure!"

 

[AmyStrange]

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I really doubt that once Rudy left the apartment he returned. He had just killed someone and left a bloody mess there. He sliced the inside of his fingers on his knife hand. He knew that three other women lived in the flat, and he could expect that one or several of them would be back before late - perhaps even with a boyfriend. Rudy got out successfully and every bit of distance he put between the cottage and himself was a good thing for him. He also got rid of the hot phones.

If he needed more money, Rudy could steal a purse from a foreign student at the discos or on the buses. There are other places he could burglarize. Just the night before, Rudy went to the disco with two female Spanish students who lived in his building. He could steal from them easily; all he needed to
do was watch when the leave the building for another evenng out.

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That does sound more probable, but that doesn't mean Rudy coming back to the house is impossible, just not probable in your mind.

I can see it as possible even if it isn't highly probable, but that's me,

d

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[kwill]

Another novel. This one is novel.

The author is taking sides in her fictionalized story.

You’ll notice Amanda Knox hasn’t come up yet in the portrayal of this night. Nor has Raffaele Sollecito. There’s a reason for that. They just don’t fit into this part of the story.

In fiction, we have to adhere to the emotionally plausible. Even science fiction, even fantasy has to follow the laws of human nature for the story to be coherent. There’s the lack of DNA. But there’s also the why. Amanda and Raffeale were young, attractive and had their own apartment. Also, Raffaele, according to testimony, was a virgin. Are they really going to be interested in anything but rolling around naked in privacy?

And OK, let’s say they were involved. How would that work? Were they cheering Guede on from the living room? Waiting for him to finish so they could go in and kill Amanda’s roommate, with whom she had a tepid friendship? Guede’s claim was that he left the room after having sex with Meredith, and then the couple went in and killed her. But what would the motive be? A thrill? An existential experiment? I don’t even think Dostoyevsky could make that work.

source

I guess if people are going to earn their livings writing about this case, I'm glad at least some of them have spent enough time on it to know what must have happened.

 

[Caper]

Just a general question... that I am sure some of you have experience with.

What is it like going to a guilters message board and trying to argue the case for innocence?

You must not be able to last long.

 

[andreajo]

This case points out that there is a need for foreign students studying in Italy and elsewhere, and all travelers for that matter, to have immediate access to a local attorney who is fully capable of handling the preliminary aspects of a criminal matter and accident, and who speaks English.

Just as there is health insurance and travel insurance, there should be some sort of legal insurance that a student or other traveler purchases. Everyone traveling abroad should carry a wallet card in the local language and in their language which they present to the police which invokes their legal rights and protections, provides a 24 hour local legal number, and immediate phone access to a lawyer. The presentation of the card should stop all police questioning until the lawyer is present.

$10 or $20 per month might cover the service. Universities should insist their students have it when studying abroad.

Good idea! They should also have preparation seminars where they give away free copies of Waiting to Be Heard.

 

[Strozzi]

Gosh! You don't suppose they lied to her?

It was Rita Ficarra who told her she might need to stick around for a few months. "Just wait a few days for the magistrate, honey... Then we'll know for sure!"

People seem to misunderstand the role of a US embassy or consulate regarding a legal or criminal matter. They don't provide a hotel room or sanctuary. They advise you to contact an attorney and provide you with a list of local attorneys who have submitted their name to the embassy or consulate as an attorney willing to represent an American citizen in certain types of matters.

The American Citizen Services Officer from the Consular Section stays in periodic contact with you. If you are in jail, they will visit you there quickly after you have been detained and periodically follow up. They will notify your next of kin that there is an issue, if you grant consent for it. If you are abused in police or prison custody there will be an immediate protest made to a very hgh level of the host country's Foreign Ministry and possibly to the Justice Ministry as well. (The police chief in Perugia or head of the prison where Knox was held probably heard about it from their bosses in Rome and were told to knock it off, but they won't tell anybody about that.)

The Italian Government apparently did not immediately notify the US Embassy in Rome of Knox's arrest and that was an improper delay, but Knox's arrest was known immediately as it was all over the media. I don't know for a fact, but I would expect that she was visited in prison very soon thereafter. Certainly her mother contacted the US Embassy immediately. Does anyone have any information on this?