Ed Speaking in tongues

Yes, absolutely. I am convinced that there is an element of mass hypnosis in these congregations.

Have you ever seen someone go up to a faith healer/preacher and the preacher says "you are HEALED In the name of jaysus" and the person just falls over? It's called "being slain in the spirit" and it's happened to me. My knees just buckled and I couldn't stand up. You know why? Because I knew that was what was supposed to happen. I knew it was going to happen when I went up there, I'd seen it happen to other people, a whole room full of people were expecting it to happen, so it happened. I had no conscious control.

Same thing.

I talked to someone who went to one of these services for the first time. She went up with everyone else, obligingly, and stood in front of the preacher as he pushed her on the forehead. She took an involuntary step back, shrugged, and went back to her seat.

The people around her were livid. "You're supposed to fall down!" they hissed at her.

So, not completely involuntary, if this is any indication.
 
I can barely remember, when I was about three or four years old, enjoying giving speeches in nonsense syllables and my parents said I'd been doing it since I was even younger. I actually had a name for it: "me talk." I think part of it was the fun of being able to speak quickly without worrying about thinking up the actual words, because I was still learning to talk so of course dramatic public speaking was way beyond my ability.

I can remember imitating cursive handwriting the same way, when I could still only print letters and couldn't read cursive script, by just making a series of scrawls across the page. The fun was in pretending to be profficient at something--speaking, writing--that was actually beyond my skill level.

There was no connection to religious speaking in tongues, because I'd never heard of that and it wasn't part of any family churches, so as far as I know, it was something I dreamed up on my own. I couldn't do it now--it would actually be easier to give a real speech than to think up nonsense syllables--but I wonder if there's any connection to speaking in tongues. When people are overwhelmed with emotion and want to express it but don't know how exactly, maybe there's a natural incentive to cut corners and pretend to express it through nonsense...
 
I talked to someone who went to one of these services for the first time. She went up with everyone else, obligingly, and stood in front of the preacher as he pushed her on the forehead. She took an involuntary step back, shrugged, and went back to her seat.

The people around her were livid. "You're supposed to fall down!" they hissed at her.

So, not completely involuntary, if this is any indication.
Your acquaintance obviously hadn't been primed. I had been - repeatedly. It's part of what they do.
 
Ah, I see. So the person speaking in tongues can only be interpreted by someone gifted enough to understand them. And the meaning behind what is being said is completely subjective to the person doing the interpretation, to the point that two different interpreters can come up with completely different interpretations. Amazing more people don't believe in this!

:rolleyes:
Note that this is actually a feature of very many things in religions of all sorts.
 
I can barely remember, when I was about three or four years old, enjoying giving speeches in nonsense syllables and my parents said I'd been doing it since I was even younger. I actually had a name for it: "me talk." I think part of it was the fun of being able to speak quickly without worrying about thinking up the actual words, because I was still learning to talk so of course dramatic public speaking was way beyond my ability.

I can remember imitating cursive handwriting the same way, when I could still only print letters and couldn't read cursive script, by just making a series of scrawls across the page. The fun was in pretending to be profficient at something--speaking, writing--that was actually beyond my skill level.

There was no connection to religious speaking in tongues, because I'd never heard of that and it wasn't part of any family churches, so as far as I know, it was something I dreamed up on my own. I couldn't do it now--it would actually be easier to give a real speech than to think up nonsense syllables--but I wonder if there's any connection to speaking in tongues. When people are overwhelmed with emotion and want to express it but don't know how exactly, maybe there's a natural incentive to cut corners and pretend to express it through nonsense...

I have a cat that, when younger, would walk about uttering a string of sounds that truly sounded like sentences of a sing-song style of language. It may well be that he was trying to say something but it was indecipherable. More likely, since he out grew to inclination to do this, it was merely juvenile performance with attention as a reward.
 
I did attend one Pentecostal church meeting and was quite astounded that the congregation actually believed that this gibberish meant something. Frankly it was a combination of watching a group idiocy and trying to keep that assessment out of my facial expressions due to the spooky feeling that some of them might actually be dangerous if it ever dawned on them that I thought it was patently stupid.
 
I remember feeling very disappointed to find the speaking was gibberish, and not a foreign language. But, not many people would be able to do it if it demanded something real!
 
I did attend one Pentecostal church meeting and was quite astounded that the congregation actually believed that this gibberish meant something. Frankly it was a combination of watching a group idiocy and trying to keep that assessment out of my facial expressions due to the spooky feeling that some of them might actually be dangerous if it ever dawned on them that I thought it was patently stupid.

Curious.
I had the same reaction in a Qi Gong workshop when the participants were encouraged to speak in the 'Language of Heaven' aka speaking in tongues.
 
I remember feeling very disappointed to find the speaking was gibberish, and not a foreign language. But, not many people would be able to do it if it demanded something real!

When the disciples originally spoke in tongues it wasn't gibberish, but a miracle where everyone heard his own language:

Acts 2:1-12 NIV
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”


When gibberish became an acceptable substitute I can only guess.
 
When the disciples originally spoke in tongues it wasn't gibberish, but a miracle where everyone heard his own language:

Acts 2:1-12 NIV
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”


When gibberish became an acceptable substitute I can only guess.


Looks like it happened after they found out it didn't work:

In 1900, Parham opened Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, where he taught initial evidence. During a service on 1 January 1901, a student named Agnes Ozman asked for prayer and the laying on of hands to specifically ask God to fill her with the Holy Spirit. She became the first of many students to experience glossolalia, coincidentally in the first hours of the 20th century. Parham followed within the next few days. Parham called his new movement the Apostolic Faith. In 1905, he moved to Houston and opened a Bible school there. One of his students was William Seymour, an African-American preacher. In 1906, Seymour traveled to Los Angeles where his preaching ignited the Azusa Street Revival. This revival is considered the birth of the global Pentecostal movement. Witnesses at the Azusa Street Revival wrote of seeing fire resting on the heads of participants, miraculous healings in the meetings, and incidents of speaking in tongues being understood by native speakers of the language. According to the first issue of William Seymore's newsletter, "The Apostolic Faith", from 1906:
Parham and his early followers believed that speaking in tongues was xenoglossia, and some followers traveled to foreign countries and tried to use the gift to share the Gospel with non-English-speaking people. These attempts consistently resulted in failure and many of Parham's followers rejected his teachings after being disillusioned with their attempts to speak unlearned foreign languages.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...a5QnZFZ1Ibr1-3g&bvm=bv.60983673,d.aWc&cad=rja
 
I can see how people might think something mysterious is happening when the person next to them is babbling away, but when they themselves participate, they have to know in their own minds that they are making their own stuff up. If I ever found myself at one of these sessions it would certainly scare the crap out of me.
 
I can see how people might think something mysterious is happening when the person next to them is babbling away, but when they themselves participate, they have to know in their own minds that they are making their own stuff up. If I ever found myself at one of these sessions it would certainly scare the crap out of me.
No, they really don't. They are just opening themselves up and allowing the Holy Spirit to take over. They don't believe they have any conscious control over their voices whatsoever. They are merely a vessel through which the Holy Spirit speaks prophesy.
 
No, they really don't. They are just opening themselves up and allowing the Holy Spirit to take over. They don't believe they have any conscious control over their voices whatsoever. They are merely a vessel through which the Holy Spirit speaks prophesy.

This. If it feels like an effort, it's explained as the difficulty of "letting go and letting God", or whatever trite cliché is in vogue in your particular circles. Different people will have their own levels of self-control and self-consciousness which may pose problems at first, but once you've accepted the idea and got the knack, it seems entirely unremarkable.
 
This. If it feels like an effort, it's explained as the difficulty of "letting go and letting God", or whatever trite cliché is in vogue in your particular circles. Different people will have their own levels of self-control and self-consciousness which may pose problems at first, but once you've accepted the idea and got the knack, it seems entirely unremarkable.

Once everyone else is babbling in tongues the silent one becomes the odd man out.
 
Once everyone else is babbling in tongues the silent one becomes the odd man out.

More true than you know. There's often a lot of pressure, both overt and more subtle, to conform. Opinion varies from "you're not a Christian if you don't join in" through to bemusement at why anyone wouldn't want to, with a strong suggestion that the only thing getting in the way is your sinful obstruction of God's will. Add in an insistence that this is God's special gift, available to anyone, and anyone who doesn't have this particular gift will tend to feel rather left out.

Faced with this, people generally shape up or ship out.
 
I can see how people might think something mysterious is happening when the person next to them is babbling away, but when they themselves participate, they have to know in their own minds that they are making their own stuff up. If I ever found myself at one of these sessions it would certainly scare the crap out of me.

No, they really don't. They are just opening themselves up and allowing the Holy Spirit to take over. They don't believe they have any conscious control over their voices whatsoever. They are merely a vessel through which the Holy Spirit speaks prophesy.

This. If it feels like an effort, it's explained as the difficulty of "letting go and letting God", or whatever trite cliché is in vogue in your particular circles. Different people will have their own levels of self-control and self-consciousness which may pose problems at first, but once you've accepted the idea and got the knack, it seems entirely unremarkable.

I get what everyone is saying, and earlier in the thread I have illustrated an example of why I sympathize with the above comments, but this is where it always breaks down for me.

In my mind it operates on the same mechanism as cold-reading. On a certain level, at a certain point, one MUST confront their humanity and make a conscious decision to put forth a bunch of gobbeldy-gook, and justify it as divine: be it "the Holy Spirit has shown me how to speak in the language of heaven," or "I'm getting a J...J...Larry Robert Johnson? Yep, that's a hit. Don't know how I do it, it just comes to me..."

I am not explaining myself very clearly, but basically, although I can agree that people are very prone to fooling themselves, I just can't seem to wrap my head around how they can do such things with clarity of concience.

I guess my stance is this, and I apologize that it may be less clear, but more succinct:

I concur that people are fooling themselves. But, really? I mean, c'mon. REALLY? You seriously expect me to believe you don't realize you are just making crap up?
 
^
I have the impression that there's a bit of a Magic Circle mindset with the glossolalia, whether found in a Siberian Chamanic healing session, a Qi Gong workshop or a Pentecostal prayer meeting.
 
I concur that people are fooling themselves. But, really? I mean, c'mon. REALLY? You seriously expect me to believe you don't realize you are just making crap up?

Right, time for argumentum ad anecdote. Apologies in advance for the tl;dr

Despite hanging around with some pretty strange people, and naively considering myself a Charismatic long before I had a good idea of what I was identifying with (if I'd known the full story, there's a fair chance I'd have run a mile), for a long time the phenomenon of glossolalia was a closed book to me, something that I'd heard of, but which seemed intriguing but also completely wacked out. I didn't know what to think. I was happy to leave it that way, thinking that if God wanted me to talk nonsense, He could sort it out Himself. I wasn't going to load the dice or make an idiot of myself trying to make something happen.

So one day, I'm at a big summer festival. The first morning, I go along to an early morning prayer session and the guy leading it starts pushing tongues very heavily, which was nearly as bad as it sounds. I didn't like that, and especially his explicit assumption that God would just give it to anyone who wanted it - I even had Bible verses ready to back me up. At the end, after I'd sat through this for quite a while, we had a passive-aggressive Christian exchange of views, and I trudged off feeling distinctly unimpressed. I went and ranted to my girlfriend about it, letting fly with some pretty sharp words about this guy's obsession with getting people to talk nonsense, before she eventually muttered that she had the gift I'd been so forcefully eviscerating. I may have referred to "nutters". :eek::blush:

That week was strange. Previously, I'd had no direct knowledge or experience of the phenomenon, and hadn't even realised how many people seemed to have experienced it personally. I felt unsettled, and naturally, my relationship with the GF was pretty confused, even by the standards of chaste young Christians. I was asking lots of difficult questions, and getting lots of prayer. Now, I was aware that people sometimes fell down in these situations, but I'd always thought it was a suspiciously strange thing for God to do. That week, it seemed that every time anyone prayed for me, I shook like a leaf until I literally couldn't stand. Once, I lay unable to move for what felt like an eternity. I hadn't expected it, it just happened. There would come a time when I became rather good at delivering these reactions to order, but this was genuine and inexplicable to me.

It started to feel as if a whole world I'd never been aware of was opening up for me. I didn't know what to make of it, but it felt good and everyone was treating it as entirely normal, so what could be wrong? So now we come to the final night - a feverish atmosphere, and the guy at the front starts talking about the gift of tongues. Who wants it? After the week I'd had, my suspicions had softened, I was prepared to believe in things that I'd previously dismissed, and this felt like a Biblical story of redemption, undoing my initial mistake (if that's what it was) with a final act that made everything better. So I got up and went down to the front for prayer.

The man at the front was making weird noises. I think most of the thousands of people there were doing the same. I stumbled over a few syllables, worked on them a bit longer, and finally, with some encouragement, settled into some noises that almost sounded like something. And I was delighted! I remember rushing over to my GF, telling her that I finally understood. Even though I was obviously just making up sounds, it genuinely felt real, as if I'd managed to achieve something. I don't even know now what it was that I thought I understood - maybe how it felt. Either way, it faded soon enough.

My problem, if you can call it that, was that I couldn't stop picking at things and thinking about them. As the glow faded, and that week passed into memory, it didn't feel right. I imagine a lot of people, on being told or led to believe that they have the gift of tongues, just go off and make unintelligible sounds with no difficulty and without the intrusion of their conscious brain. I tried to, and managed to make it work for a while, but in the end, I couldn't do it. I was always analysing it, which led me to doubt more and more whether any of it had been genuine. But this was just another symptom of the thing that made me difficult, the fact that I was always asking questions and looking for evidence.

After this, I found out a lot more about glossolalia. Lots of people swore by it for personal private prayer - if you didn't know what to say, you could just open your mouth and mumble away in whatever language came to hand. So it wasn't just about group dynamics. Some people didn't just get the gift all on their own out of the blue, but spent a long time hiding it from others when they were younger, because they thought it would seem weird. So it wasn't just created by expectation or environment. It seems to be moderately common, when connected to ecstatic religious experiences, and easily imitated by anyone who wants to fit in. The proportion who are truly genuine is up for debate, but I expect most people believe it to be genuine as strongly as they believe their religion of choice.

Once you've swallowed the principle, how would you test whether your utterances made any sense, however much you stumble over them? Especially once the deck's stacked by allowing the possibility of "angelic languages" that are unknown to man. Every so often, it would be normal to hear third-hand reports of some missionary speaking in tongues and being told that he was speaking the local tribe's language and the entire village had converted on the spot - entirely uncorroborated, very doubtful for many reasons, but enough support for those who want to believe, just as creationist fabrications (like the NASA/Joshua/Missing Hour one which I fell for long ago) are enough for them.

You could reasonably accuse people who claim the gift of tongues of a lack of critical thinking - in fact, it would probably be a very easy case to make - but I doubt very much that you could make the charge of dishonesty stick.
 
Right, time for argumentum ad anecdote. Apologies in advance for the tl;dr

Despite hanging around with some pretty strange people, and naively considering myself a Charismatic long before I had a good idea of what I was identifying with (if I'd known the full story, there's a fair chance I'd have run a mile), for a long time the phenomenon of glossolalia was a closed book to me, ...<snip>

I enjoyed the read. Dishonesty is always possible in claims, but I'm convinced that most folks, short of deriving some personal financial gain, believe this stuff when they say they do.

I used to get similar feelings listening to Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick album, or Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, or by going to symphonies in good concert halls. Playing the drums is pretty cool too for escaping reality. I guess there's no reason why babbling among friends shouldn't do it for some as well.

I'll guarantee you one thing though, there is no way that stories of "reports of some missionary speaking in tongues and being told that he was speaking the local tribe's language and the entire village had converted on the spot" are true. Self aggrandizement or self deception, perhaps, supernatural coolness, not so much.
 
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