Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Tell that to Billy Ray Cope. His conviction for raping and murdering his daughter was recently upheld on appeal.

The issues in his case are strikingly similar to those in the Knox case. And he is no more likely to be guilty than Knox.

I know there's a certain agenda behind the assertion that the Knox case couldn't happen in the US. There just isn't a lot of truth behind it.
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I often disagree with you, but on this point, you are right on.

I cringe when people say what happened to Amanda couldn't happen in the US. The same damn thing does happen in the US, and it happens often.

Billy Wayne Cope is one obvious example. They got him to confess. Then they matched the DNA to the guy who really did it, who Cope never mentioned... so, they made him into Cope's accomplice.

They did the same thing to David Camm, and to Hernandez and Cruz in the Nicarico case, etc. The list goes on. The authorities will say or do anything to avoid admitting a mistake. And the court system usually backs them up every step of the way, as they're doing with Cope.
 
There has been a lot of examples put forth about wrongful death convictions in the US, so most people participating in this thread are well aware that wrongful convictions like the wrongful conviction of Knox and Sollecito happen in the US.

The normal contention is that US defendant protections would likely have prevented this case from being prosecuted in the US or at least made it more difficult. I think the people that have suggested this is more likely to be correct today than 20 years ago or so are right. I live in the US and I am not aware of a case in the last 20 years or so where it is more certain that innocent people have been convicted of a crime than this one.

Based on your post I read a couple of articles about the Cope case. It looks like there is a good chance he is innocent to me, but I don't know enough to make a judgment that it is as likely that Cope is innocent as it is that Knox and Sollecito are innocent.

There is one big difference between the Billy Ray Cope case in the US and the AK/RS case in Italy. The prosecutor didn't get to run around charging everybody that publicly spoke against him of various crimes.

As an side, a number of wrongful conviction cases have been described in this thread. One that hasn't been mentioned is the wrongful conviction of Leo Frank. It is a horrible example of antisemitism, political manipulation of the trial process and mob rule. I first became aware of the case when I saw the musical, Parade. I walked out of the musical. It tried to treat the Frank respectfully, while singing about the horrible crimes committed against him. I don't think there is any way to treat somebody respectfully while you are singing about the crimes perpetrated against him.

Cope is totally innocent. He is a misbegotten schmuck, low-functioning, with borderline normal intelligence.

They got him to confess after hours upon hours where he insisted he was innocent. Finally he collapsed and confessed.

Then they got him to re-enact how he supposedly did the crime, on video. All very convincing, except THEN they discovered semen from the crime scene, and the DNA did not match Cope, and Cope's video reenactment was not of a sex crime with an accomplice.

The DNA matched a habitual rapist who didn't know Cope.

But Cope is in prison and as lane99 points out it has been upheld. Can all those fine judges be wrong?
 
It was mentioned because a poster solicited the information. And because it's the case that more than any other indicates that John Douglas has no clothes.
But feel free to provide any objective, impartially obtained data that shows his hit rate is any better than your average astrologer or psychic.
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Great! John Douglas came late to this case and frankly has contributed little to nothing to it. So what?

More interesting is the lack of a case presented by Mignini and Comodi. And further all the oddities surrounding the prosecution of AK and RS...heck even P Lumumba.

First I find it troubling that all three were denied rights guaranteed to them by the Italian Constitution. And this is indisputable and yet the Italians have done nothing about these violations of rights. Why is that?

Next I find it rather remarkable at all the suspicious activity of police and prosecutor. No one thing on its own would be risible...but 4 hard drives, forgot to push record, the sample was "too low", the controls are lost, the return for CSI on Dec 18th, the smooth transition from Lumumba to Guede meanwhile keeping AK still involved and then strangely somehow adding RS into the story, no CCTV of all this movement, no real witnesses, no actual evidence, no proven staging...and on and on almost endlessly.

This does not give me confidence that the police and prosecutor are presenting a real case. Rather it tips me strongly over to a suspecion that something stinks very badly about the way this case was prosecuted.

You want to talk psychics...fine how about Carlucci? The Masons? The Satanic matter now ridiculously trying to be distanced away from even by Mignini himself all while we have the proof of his own words...his speculations about the Halloween killing... delayed due to dinner with the house mates...(does it ever begin sounding like the double body swap noticed because the man pants didn't seem to fit quite so good for you?) And so now on the Day of the Dead the ritual killing is carried out...how about that stuff? Anything? I didn't think so.

How about Novelli pretending that contamination must be proven all while ignoring the fact that the defense was denied access to control data and raw data and EDF's that may well help prove the contamination. Meanwhile the bra clasp has at least 4 persons on it and is that is not proof of contamination of some sort?

None of this troubles any of you guilt thinkers? How about Stefanoni lying in court about the quantification size of sample 36b? Or Stefanoni being deceptive about TMB testing of luminol traces? No problems?

How about two loads of Perugia police dispatched to Rome to shake down the Independent DNA experts at their workplaces? No problems?

Mignini filing sub-related cases against several dozen people related to this case somehow. Family, lawyers, reporters, Google. No problem?

So sure who cares what John Douglas thinks? I don't really. I care more about a prison doctor lying about an AIDS test. A leaked journal. A leaked "bloody" bathroom picture. Mignini pretending in an interview to care about poor Lumumba meanwhile knowing that he is likely solely responsible for keeping his bar closed for months after he was cleared and what the motive for that was. We know the result was to bankrupt Lumumba but what was the reason?

These things and hundreds of other similar suspicious oddities about the prosecution of this case is what I find interesting.

That so many Italian legal eyes have passed all these things unquestionably by is what keeps me interested. Its as if they operate as some sort of legal mafia. I find that troubling...but hey if the Italians are happy with their system then great.

So throw RS into jail. We will be keeping the girl here... safe from corrupt lying cheating judicial hands in Italy. Whatever.
 
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Can anyone find the very first report abc's nightline did on the case? I want to see it again.... I can't quite remember it. It was presented as a story of how technology spoiled a murder plot. I wish I could find it and see it again.
 
It's true: Douglas is not a psychic and he can't guess who the guilty person is.

Here's some information about Douglas's profile and the role it played:

The FBI profile listed a number of personal characteristics, propensities and interpersonal difficulties which were associated with the person responsible for the murder of Christine Jessop. [...]

A number of these points could not relate to Guy Paul Morin in any way. By way of example only, he had no history of criminality, he was not lazy, did not have a poor self-image, physical ailment, disability or disfigurement. There was no evidence that he was a ‘cruiser.’ There was no evidence that his vehicle was cleaned after the offence was committed; to the contrary. He was not rigid, stiff, pre-occupied or nervous with the police; to the contrary. He did not demonstrate an overly cooperative attitude by participating in the search (ironically, despite this aspect of the profile, his failure to search was later used to demonstrate consciousness of guilt). There was no evidence he had experienced a number of ‘failings’ in his life, that his parents were after him to find a job, that he was experiencing difficulties with a girlfriend at the time of the offence or that his parents were experiencing marital difficulties. There was no evidence that he dated girls younger than himself whom he could easily dominate. In summary, it could not reasonably be said that the profile matched or even closely resembled Guy Paul Morin.

Insp Shephard admitted that he and Fitzpatrick probably focused on the features of the profile which fit Morin and ignored those which did not: “Obviously, if they didn’t fit him, then it was of no value to us, but it was .. only a guide that we used anyway.”


http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin30.asp

Emphasis mine.

Thanks Charlie. It's very clear that Douglas's profile didn't actually fit Paul Morin and it's obvious that you can't or shouldn't blame him for this travesty.
 
HotNostril:

Re: Knox's DNA in the murder room.

In the majority of murder cases there are no biological traces left by the aggressor. That Knox's DNA was not found in the murder room even with a struggle means nothing.

I posted an example of a recent bloody murder in the US: none of his DNA at the scene... no blood on him.

Timeline please.
 
Agreed.

If you want me to ignore his DNA give me a reasonable alternative explain action for how it got there.

According to what I've read here, there is no other evidence of him anywhere at all. Except on a cigarette butt collected much earlier.
Are you now trying to convince me that his DNA was indeed elsewhere in the murder room and transferred to the clasp?
Are you trying to convince me it was a frame job?

The clasp was not collected until the shoe evidence was proven false. Have you watched the video of the clasp being found and handled by dirty gloves? The evidence collection in the cottage was a complete joke.
 
In looking back at some of the original stories about Amanda's conviction, I was astonished to find this:
In their closing arguments, prosecutors showed the jury an animated simulation of the night of the crime. It showed a cartoon version of Ms. Knox getting into a fight with Ms. Kercher in the victim’s room, while Mr. Sollecito held a knife and Mr. Guede held her from behind and reached a hand into her underwear.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=0

It's hard to believe that anything like this could have been screened in an American court. And it sounds the like defense failed seriously when they didn't produce their own animation showing Guede acting alone.
 
In looking back at some of the original stories about Amanda's conviction, I was astonished to find this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=0

It's hard to believe that anything like this could have been screened in an American court. And it sounds the like defense failed seriously when they didn't produce their own animation showing Guede acting alone.

Like it or not, prosecutors in the U.S. are allowed the "leeway" during closing arguments to present their theory of how the crime went down. In the Scott Peterson case, there was no video, but during his closing arguments, the prosecutor said Scott Peterson had sneaked up on Laci in the living room and strangled her from behind. Clearly, there was zero evidence any such thing happened, because to this day the time, manner, and location of Laci's death remain unknown. The police hadn't even dusted the living room for prints.
 
Dan O.,

I recently finished reading the Massei report, which is why I brought up the fabrication of the break-in being staged. The prosecution did not come to this conclusion based on logic. It was based on the imagination of the prosecutor and it scares me that this is what suffices to sentence someone to prison for. 25-28 years.


You haven't really read Massei until you've read it in the original Google translated pig-english.


I recall the early days of the original thread when we were all waiting for the long promised english translation to come out. I started to notice one poster in particular making arguments and quotes that hadn't appeared in any of the news coverage of this case. It didn't take long to figure out that he was using excerpts from the unreleased translation.

I had several days before downloaded the original PDF document in Italian. Another poster was able to OCR the text and a quick trip through Google Translation produced a document that was somewhat usable for anyone that already knew the material. What's more is that it was a complete work and searchable. We were again able to parry the arguments and hold the high ground.

[Note: Since I was the first to cite Massei in this thread and I was using the original Italian document page numbers, to this day I still request that cites use the original document page numbering instead of something that was made up later and subject to change.]

But Massei is not the complete record of the trial. Much of the text is copied from the prosecution and defense arguments. Massei then cherry-picks bits from the testimonies to support his conclusion.

We now have many of the Massei trial transcripts available. Again these are in Italian and even the google translation is a tedious process. Yet, I am still finding bits of new information as the transcripts are processed. Like discovering that the evidence of the CCTV time being fast was never presented as direct testimony (although the officer tried desperately until the assistant prosecutor cried uncle and told the court that the officer did not have the information).
 
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In looking back at some of the original stories about Amanda's conviction, I was astonished to find this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=0

It's hard to believe that anything like this could have been screened in an American court. And it sounds the like defense failed seriously when they didn't produce their own animation showing Guede acting alone.

Bob, the prosecution spent a fortune creating it when, according to Mignini, they did not record the nighttime interrogations of Knox and Sollecito due to budget limitations.

Mignini's co-prosecutor, Comodi, issued a purchase order to a contracting firm that does business with the Perugia police. The firm specializes in designing and installing secret audio and visual recording devices. After awarding the firm the purchase order to create the animation, a second task was added to the work task. The second task was to create a database of records of this case. The second task's level of effort was not specified and i speculate that it may have been added to the purchase order in order to conceal how much of the purchase order was for the first task, the animation. The total value of the purchase order is equivalent to US$183,000.
 
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Tell that to Billy Ray Cope. His conviction for raping and murdering his daughter was recently upheld on appeal.

The issues in his case are strikingly similar to those in the Knox case. And he is no more likely to be guilty than Knox.

I know there's a certain agenda behind the assertion that the Knox case couldn't happen in the US. There just isn't a lot of truth behind it.
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I have to agree. The US produced the David Camm case. People are stupid everywhere.
 
Uh Kwill...please follow the thread and the reason why I posted about Latko.

You were comparing apples and oranges and didn't realize you inadvertently undermined your position. Or, perhaps a better analogy is comparing the Mark One Eyeball with the world's best microscope.

Low Template DNA analysis has not been accepted in American courts and has only just begun being used in a few court cases. The primary reasons are difficulty in interpretation and the more stringent contamination control protocols required. Generally American forensic technicians find a substance and then identify it and determine who that is through DNA analysis. For example, they found blood on that knife and determined it was the victim's DNA and therefore his blood. They didn't go searching for low template DNA transfers, they found substances and then identified who that biological material belonged to which preserves its probative value. That way you can better determine what finding that substance means like semen in a vagina, saliva from a bite wound, skin/blood underneath fingernails, hairs pulled out with the roots. They used the Mark One Eyeball in the analogical sense. Take a look at the flow chart of the FBI standards on 8 of this report (22 of the pdf) and notice that the first step is determining the substance and if they can't do that they don't go further.

However when dealing with low template DNA, especially when they don't even bother to identify the substance, you may be finding low template transfers that don't indicate much of anything in some circumstances. Contamination itself is (generally) a low template transfer, which is why those who use the method above can claim very low rates of contamination: it's just less likely for greater amounts to transfer and those substances are less likely to do so than skin cells and the like which can get anywhere.

However, in the murder room they went down to the picogram and the lowest registering alleles and they found nothing of Raffaele and Amanda in the murder room, but plenty of Rudy Guede. They used the best microscope in the world and picked up any low level substance-unidentified transfer they could and they pretty much excluded the possibility Raffaele and Amanda were in that room that night. Some of Rudy Guede's DNA would not have been found employing the top method, but then again none of Guede's DNA had an innocent explanation at all, and frankly the bloody handprint, shoeprints, and the fleeing to Germany is all you'd need to convict him.

However going in six weeks later looking for low level transfers after the scene has been trashed giving only lip service to normal forensic procedures let alone LT/LCN requirements and finding an unidentified substance which has one major contributor and a minimum of three male minor contributors is pretty much worthless forensically, especially knowing the item sampled somehow motivated around and ended up in a pile of trash! There's no way to pretend the sampling done from the clasp indicates what was on it directly after the murder, and not knowing the substance means it could be anything transferring from anywhere at that point. Unlike Rudy, Raffaele had been in the girl's flat innocently during the week before the murder and most especially was there at the discovery, exerting himself at the door. Finding his DNA after six weeks in that blender doesn't prove a goddamn thing about the murder, especially because absolutely nothing of his was found on or around the body when the only real forensic investigation was done, the day of discovery when the body was found behind a locked door.


So please, no more comparing eyeballs and microscopes. :)
 
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Cope is totally innocent. He is a misbegotten schmuck, low-functioning, with borderline normal intelligence.

They got him to confess after hours upon hours where he insisted he was innocent. Finally he collapsed and confessed.

Then they got him to re-enact how he supposedly did the crime, on video. All very convincing, except THEN they discovered semen from the crime scene, and the DNA did not match Cope, and Cope's video reenactment was not of a sex crime with an accomplice.

The DNA matched a habitual rapist who didn't know Cope.

But Cope is in prison and as lane99 points out it has been upheld. Can all those fine judges be wrong?

I kind of find it hard to believe the police ever behave this way. Are you suggesting a conspiracy involving a bunch of police and lawyers? Why would they do that? He could have kept silent, that's what I would do in the same situation. Based on just the few posts I've read in the last few pages here, I say he's guilty. It's just my opinion.
 
You haven't really read Massei until you've read it in the original Google translated pig-english.


I recall the early days of the original thread when we were all waiting for the long promised english translation to come out. I started to notice one poster in particular making arguments and quotes that hadn't appeared in any of the news coverage of this case. It didn't take long to figure out that he was using excerpts from the unreleased translation.

I had several days before downloaded the original PDF document in Italian. Another poster was able to OCR the text and a quick trip through Google Translation produced a document that was somewhat usable for anyone that already knew the material. What's more is that it was a complete work and searchable. We were again able to parry the arguments and hold the high ground.

[Note: Since I was the first to cite Massei in this thread and I was using the original Italian document page numbers, to this day I still request that cites use the original document page numbering instead of something that was made up later and subject to change.]

But Massei is not the complete record of the trial. Much of the text is copied from the prosecution and defense arguments. Massei then cherry-picks bits from the testimonies to support his conclusion.

We now have many of the Massei trial transcripts available. Again these are in Italian and even the google translation is a tedious process. Yet, I am still finding bits of new information as the transcripts are processed. Like discovering that the evidence of the CCTV time being fast was never presented as direct testimony (although the officer tried desperately until the assistant prosecutor cried uncle and told the court that the officer did not have the information).
It's amazing that any findings were made at all. If you read the transcripts, large sections look like the case is being heard in a fish market with everybody butting in when they feel like it. Read Mignini's attempt to cross examine Amanda. His exasperation with the interruptions is pretty comical as are Massei's feeble attempts to keep order.
 
I disagree with Charlie et al that something like this is common the world over. This case spans three countries and one of those... ITALY has no visible dissenters concerning this highly popularized case. To compare it to relative unknown cases like Billy whatever Cope is like comparing apples and ice cream.

Before today I never heard of the Cope case. It certainly never got the world wide attention of the RS/AK wrongful conviction.

Well, there you go, Randy. He's just as innocent as Amanda and Raffaele, the case is every bit as ridiculous, but you never heard of him. And there are many more like him.

I just got an email today about Chris Tapp. Ever hear of him?

Here's the plot: the cops get a screwy confession out of this guy after working him over for weeks. He finally admits he was at the scene where a girl was murdered. He accuses his friend, who the police already suspected, of the murder itself. Just like Amanda. But they check the DNA of the suspect who Tapp accused, and it doesn't match the crime scene DNA.

So, the prosecutor says to Tapp, "we will drop the charges against you if you tell us who your accomplice was, who ejaculated at the crime scene." (This detail too is like the Kercher case, except the cops actually tested the semen.)

Tapp couldn't keep his end of that deal, because Tapp wasn't there and he had no clue who really did it.

So, now he's doing a 40.

That's justice, American style. Have a red pill.
 
I often disagree with you, but on this point, you are right on.

I cringe when people say what happened to Amanda couldn't happen in the US. The same damn thing does happen in the US, and it happens often.
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Realistically, what happened in this particular case to Amanda in Perugia would not happen in the same type of case to Amanda in Seattle (if this case has a "type"). Trained, veteran police officers are familiar with the criminal element and can readily identify as "scum" the type of people they are used to dealing with. Many police are racist and many go overboard, but it would be difficult to arrest and detain people like Amanda and Raffaele here because of the checks and balances that exist, both legally and culturally. Young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, white American girls who have judges and lawyers for friends do not remain locked up for long.

Obviously, this is the argument the pro-guilt side has hung its hat on for six years, that Amanda's "privilege" gained her misplaced support. As Machiavelli has shown us many times, though, to be Amanda in Perugia is to be something "bad," whereas to the police in Seattle, to be Amanda is something "good."

Amanda's personal traits -- young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, white American girl with judges and lawyers for friends -- seem to arouse resentment in those who are culturally apart from her, whether (in the case of the PGP) because she is "privileged" or (in the case of PLE) she was maybe too autonomous, uppity and sexy. Some Seattle police might like to do to her what the Perugians did, but I don't think they could get away with it.
 
I kind of find it hard to believe the police ever behave this way. Are you suggesting a conspiracy involving a bunch of police and lawyers? Why would they do that? He could have kept silent, that's what I would do in the same situation. Based on just the few posts I've read in the last few pages here, I say he's guilty. It's just my opinion.

Unfortunately the jury agreed with you.

The video confession in that case is really something. It looks credible. But it doesn't fit the facts of the crime.

The judge severed the trials, of course. He no doubt reasoned that a jury with all the facts might be loathe to convict Cope, in which case all that taxpayer money would have been wasted and local officials would look really bad.
 
Realistically, what happened in this particular case to Amanda in Perugia would not happen in the same type of case to Amanda in Seattle (if this case has a "type"). Trained, veteran police officers are familiar with the criminal element and can readily identify as "scum" the type of people they are used to dealing with. Many police are racist and many go overboard, but it would be difficult to arrest and detain people like Amanda and Raffaele here because of the checks and balances that exist, both legally and culturally. Young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, white American girls who have judges and lawyers for friends do not remain locked up for long.

Obviously, this is the argument the pro-guilt side has hung its hat on for six years, that Amanda's "privilege" gained her misplaced support. As Machiavelli has shown us many times, though, to be Amanda in Perugia is to be something "bad," whereas to the police in Seattle, to be Amanda is something "good."

Amanda's personal traits -- young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, white American girl with judges and lawyers for friends -- seem to arouse resentment in those who are culturally apart from her, whether (in the case of the PGP) because she is "privileged" or (in the case of PLE) she was maybe too autonomous, uppity and sexy. Some Seattle police might like to do to her what the Perugians did, but I don't think they could get away with it.

I don't know. They convicted Rafay and Burns in Seattle, and they are innocent, or at least, the only evidence against them is bogus. They used the Canadian "Mr. Big" technique to get confessions, which is illegal in the US for good reason, but the state court system has ruled that the evidence thus obtained is OK for this case.

The US court system convicted Claus von Bulow, who is clearly innocent, despite his elite social status and access to the world's best lawyers, and he had to fight like hell to get out from under the charges.

Nobody is safe, if they fall into the wrong circumstances.
 
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