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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Amanda doesn't have a key to Raffaele's apartment or shared front door. She would have to ring Raffaele to get back in so Raffaele would know that she went out..

Source?

And if this is true... why does Raffy not mention it in his diary where numerous times he's trying so hard to figure out if she had gone out or not?

That she didn't have a key would have been the simple first-thought conclusion that anyone would come to.
 
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Would you explain what that means?

Amanda and Raffaele were convicted by an Italian jury that smugly rejected the law and the evidence, much like poster HotNostril, who herself cheerfully admits to bias in favor of the prosecution. What do you think it means?
 
Amanda and Raffaele were convicted by an Italian jury that smugly rejected the law and the evidence, much like poster HotNostril, who herself cheerfully admits to bias in favor of the prosecution. What do you think it means?

Got it HotNostril? That's Italian!
 
Source?

And if this is true... why does Raffy not mention it in his diary where numerous times he's trying so hard to figure out if she had gone out or not?

That she didn't have a key would have been the simple first-thought conclusion that anyone would come to.

Old Raf isn't really very quick. He did figure it out at some point because its in his book IIRC.

He messed up the days with Mansey and asked for a calendar at the station.

But since not one argues she did go out alone, why does it matter?
 
throwing a changeup

Kaosium,

IIUC Mignini did not make the change in TOD until his closing remarks (I may have seen this in Darkness Descending--not exactly the most reliable source). I don't think that this would have been allowed in some jurisdictions, but Massei allowed it (I cannot recall the source for this). I don't see how the defense could have been able to counter effectively this change in timeline so late into the trial. In the appeals trials the defense has been sometimes hampered by having their requests refused. I don't consider the appeals trials to be exactly de novo trials for that reason.
 
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From what I read, they did not even prove that the break-in was staged in the first place.


This recent discussion of the break-in got me thinking about tool marks and I remembered seeing marks on the shutters by the latch. And then it just dawned on me, one of the photos shows the two outer shutters pulled together with a closeup of the latches and those marks. This is photo dsc_0089.jpj (Date Time Original: Nov 2, 2007, 5:42:31 PM). The big "O" photo most commonly used to show the glass lined up on the sill proving that the shutters had been closed is photo dsc_0105.jpg (Date Time Original: Nov 2, 2007, 5:52:35 PM).

Well, Duh. I guess the shutters had been closed.

:p
 
Old Raf isn't really very quick. He did figure it out at some point because its in his book IIRC.

Ol' Raff. Ol' Raffie boy, he really is quite endearing. So glad to hear that at some point he did "figure it out"

(What he is, is a liar).
 
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Got it HotNostril? That's Italian!



Ah! Got it!

Apparently, their deductive reasoning skills and reading comprehension skills are not half as wonderful as so many seem to think. ;)

I'm not a man ...I've addressed this more than once in the very short time I've been here.

I'm not old
I'm not a lesbian
I'm not Italian
I don't hate Amanda Knox
I'm not jealous of Amanda Knox
 
In the majority of murder cases there are no biological traces left by the aggressor.

It is the differential of evidence of Guede in the room versus the other two that should give everyone pause. Why wouldn't there be an equal amount evidence of Amanda and Raffaele?

Exactly the point: Latko was found guilty on solid evidence. You use him to make the point that it's possible to murder people and not leave DNA or other physical evidence. Granted! But it's not possible to convict someone without some other "solid evidence."
...
If you don't have DNA, you need something better than the victim told her friends that the suspect didn't use the toilet brush often enough.

can't explain away the bare very clear footprint on the bathmat. Let's say for the sake of argument it's Rudy's...how did it get there? Did he fly? It was obviously a naked foot covered in blood. Who cleaned up the other bare footprints going into the bathroom?

Interesting progression here. Vibio states categorically that in the majority of murder cases the murderer leaves no biological trace. Vibio does not claim this to be true in the majority of disorganized, bloody throat-slashing murder cases, and provides no source for the claim.

Then Chris H points out that it's very odd that only one member of a supposed 3-person murdering team left multiple DNA/fingerprint samples while the other 2 left none at all. Very odd indeed.

Then I say that okay, we have one example of a bloody murder done with a knife in which the perpetrator's DNA wasn't found . . . so it is possible. But that perpetrator was convicted on the strength of very convincing OTHER evidence. There is no such OTHER evidence in this case. It's all wobbly conjecture and character assassination.

Finally hotnostril responds to that post by saying (I think) that the bloody footprint on the bathmat is definitely evidence of a cleanup.

The argument went from
most murderers don't leave DNA
to
somebody must have done a cleanup

with lots of whinging about mean people and frustration over specious arguments in between.

Here's the thing. The presumption of innocence requires that there be reliable evidence showing that the most probable explanation is that the suspects are guilty. In this case the evidence points almost exclusively to one person's guilt. He's currently in prison.

To continue arguing over the remaining questionable bits because they might somehow or other be fitted together to show that it's plausible for A & R to have been part of that murder scene is -- pardon the expression -- ridiculous. And nobody would care, except that they're in danger of being unjustly jailed again.
 
Interesting progression here. Vibio states categorically that in the majority of murder cases the murderer leaves no biological trace. Vibio does not claim this to be true in the majority of disorganized, bloody throat-slashing murder cases, and provides no source for the claim.



Then Chris H points out that it's very odd that only one member of a supposed 3-person murdering team left multiple DNA/fingerprint samples while the other 2 left none at all. Very odd indeed.



Then I say that okay, we have one example of a bloody murder done with a knife in which the perpetrator's DNA wasn't found . . . so it is possible. But that perpetrator was convicted on the strength of very convincing OTHER evidence. There is no such OTHER evidence in this case. It's all wobbly conjecture and character assassination.



Finally hotnostril responds to that post by saying (I think) that the bloody footprint on the bathmat is definitely evidence of a cleanup.



The argument went from

most murderers don't leave DNA

to

somebody must have done a cleanup



with lots of whinging about mean people and frustration over specious arguments in between.



Here's the thing. The presumption of innocence requires that there be reliable evidence showing that the most probable explanation is that the suspects are guilty. In this case the evidence points almost exclusively to one person's guilt. He's currently in prison.



To continue arguing over the remaining questionable bits because they might somehow or other be fitted together to show that it's plausible for A & R to have been part of that murder scene is -- pardon the expression -- ridiculous. And nobody would care, except that they're in danger of being unjustly jailed again.


Presumption of innocence is not something as a poster on an Internet forum I'm required to afford twice convicted killers.

Look around..this isn't a court room.
 
And to the right place if he's so inclined to wade through a whale-bloated monstrosity where no matter is too tangential or trivial to not warrant being poured over and pontificated on with talmudic earnestness by the faithful.

Instead of taking 2 or 3 posts to explain why you won't answer someone's question, how about just taking one to answer it? In the end, that will work out to the best advantage for everyone. Save perhaps those for whom Knoxology is a full time make work project.
.
.


If you have questions about this case, please ask them. If you have evidence that my answers are incorrect, bring that forward, I am always elated to learn aspects that I had missed. But if you come in here pounding question after question and ignoring the answers, sooner or later you will be treated like the troll.
 
As for Machiavelli: he's by far the best and most informed poster here about this case.

His posts are indeed masterful and meticulously consistent in their repetition of incoherent nonsense, and in their dogged defense, logic and the laws of physics be damned, of every aspect of the prosecution's "case". Presumably this is your cup of tea.
 
Presumption of innocence is not something as a poster on an Internet forum I'm required to afford twice convicted killers.

Look around..this isn't a court room.

One of them is also convicted of lying.

Neither is convicted of murder. If you believe they are, then you must believe that double jeopardy comes into play as they were found innocent once.

While Amanda was convicted of calunnia, no one from the PG side has ever been able to explain what the police knew to be correct before Amanda's statement.

Btw, Mignini was convicted of illegal wiretaps etc. and Napoleoni is charged with illegal acts against her ex husband along with her merry band of cops.
 
lane99, you have every right to come here, ask what you want and even ignore responses provided you remain within the MA. And you can do this without being insulted.
 
Dan O.,

I recently finished reading the Massei report, which is why I brought up the fabrication of the break-in being staged. The prosecution did not come to this conclusion based on logic. It was based on the imagination of the prosecutor and it scares me that this is what suffices to sentence someone to prison for. 25-28 years.

People claim that they would have been convicted in an U.S. court as well, but I doubt there would have even been a trial. Not to mention, dubious behavior on behalf of the prosecution as well as law enforcement and jurors admitting they watched T.V., read newspapers, in order to come to a conclusion would be enough to get it thrown out, IMO.
 
Good Question...

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Correct. What I don't understand (and I know I've said this several times) is how the absolute confidence of TOD by most in this thread was not shared by the defence team. Why wasn't stomach content analysis the key component of the defence? And I simply don't buy "incompetence" as the reason.
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I know, I ask that same question about the defense also. See, that's what I mean about thought provoking.

I can come up with many reasons, but none of them make sense to me. They must know something I don't, that's all I can say about that now. I'm still thinking about it,

d

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Presumption of innocence is not something as a poster on an Internet forum I'm required to afford twice convicted killers.

Look around..this isn't a court room.

lulz.

No, but it's not a forum for those who bow before the majesty of authority figures either . . . especially when they display the kind of willful ignorance we've seen from Italy.
 
AmyStrange,

I believe the defense did bring up the TOD. anglolawyer posted a source for it a page or so back.
 
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