Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[souldonut]

All material on Sollecito's compter was recovered. There was no physical evidence of tampering, no evidence that the damage was deliberate.

Maybe I missed it, and I have tried to research this before, but did the police "computer experts" explain what exactly they were doing procedurally that shocked the circuit boards on each of the four hard drives? It seems they would have, given their general crystal clear transparency. All I found was Prof. Massimo Bernaschi's report on the initial data recovery effort (post shocking) in 2008 (available on http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PDF-Files.html).

It was an either a silly little accident, that happened four times due to police incompetence (which should have lead to firings), or it was a deliberate act (likely leading to promotions). Hard drives don't shock themselves. And whatever shock-treatment-forensics-analysis they were attempting, it seemed to be more effective on Amanda's hard drive, for which the data could not be recovered. I guess that was an accident too.
-sd

 

[AmyStrange]

Just my opinion...

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Find one post of mine which supports this contention. And if you can't, withdraw this ridiculous personal attack.

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Caper doesn't mean any harm L. I personally find some of your comments thought provoking, but that's me.

If I recall, you're more on the fence, but leaning a little towards guilt being possible.

If you have doubts about the time of death being around 9:30, I can understand your belief that it's possible they all did it.

The TOD (duodenum, Meredith's last try to her Mom, and Rudy's Skype) being around 9:30 does it for me, but I don't doubt that it's possible that Rudy got rid of the cells, came back for more body moving, money searching and raping, and while he was doing that (with the door closed), Amanda came home for a minute, and what she heard behind Meredith's door scared the hell out of her, and for some reason didn't tell Raffaele about it, because he had nodded off and she had been gone for only fifteen minutes. She looks like that's what happened, and that scenario actually fits her confession/ accusation better than anything I've heard anywhere, so far.

I think the above is quite possible, just not provable.

And even without a key, getting back in to Raffaele's place would be easy, because she can fix the door when she leaves so it doesn't lock. I've done it myself before at places I've lived at with locking front doors.

But as always, that's all just my opinion,

d

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[Kaosium]

Can you quantify "a language she barely knew" for me please.

A semester of Italian and two months in Italy.

And remind me again what time the interpreter arrived & brought her a cappuccino?

Anna Donnino arrived around 12:30 AM and did not say she brought Amanda a cappuccino but that at some time someone else went down for drinks and she thought Amanda had something too. Incidentally my opinion is that between sessions Amanda had something to drink, just not while they wanted her to sign something.

 

[Grinder]

What do you think of the arguments that are presented on Websleuths? They are, for the most part, convinced that they are guilty and have argued that the prosecution has proven it. I think they are convincing. They often argue that the footprints detected by luminol belonged to Amanda and that it does not matter whether or not the bra clasp was contaminated because Sollecito's DNA was not supposed to be on it in the first place.

But the other male DNAs were supposed to be on it?

They can argue that the footprints belonged to Amanda it's just that no one can prove it because there is no match. In addition a second test for blood was negative and no confirming test was ever done. This is where the PGP slip into the need for the kids to prove it wasn't her print and it wasn't in blood, which turns the process upside down.

 

[HotNostril]

You ask two questions: how did he get there, and who cleaned up the intervening steps.



I'll give you one thing. You are sticking close to Massei's own reasoning about the bathmat print.



But a couple of things - one - Rudy admits going into the bathroom to get towels.



Also, a clean itself would be revealed.... Massei goes out of his way to say that there is no smell of bleach at the cottage, which in my view is Massei's admission that if there'd been a clean it was not with bleach.



But any clean, particularly of blood, itself would be revealed. Unless one themselves carries luminol with them, to double check they have it all - even a clean would leave swirls and trace amounts of blood invisible to the eye - which is the whole reason luminol is used as a presumptive test.



However, once again, this is negative evidence. Rudy obviously DID go into the bathroom, and he obviously DID leave his footprint on the mat. It would actually make more sense to accuse someone of planting Rudy's footprint there than question (on the grounds mentioned) it's veracity.

I assumed Rudy's foot remained with the rest of him that day making someone planting his footprint 100% impossible

Logically, if his foot was that bloody in the bathroom, it was even bloodier before he reached it.

Someone cleaned up the other prints.

My best guess is that they had dried and were cleaned up individually as the prints were visible, just as they were on that bathmat. No huge circular or swiping motions necessary.

I'm only entertaining the idea it was Rudy's foot. I don't believe it was. I believe it was RS's foot.

I believe no one else had a reason to clean up, only, Amanda Knox.

 

[Kaosium]

Corriere Nov 7
The title: "She was with Patrick and screamed"

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml

Bolint, I can't read Italian, does it give a time for the scream? There were numerous reports of screams in early news accounts, what makes Rudy's interesting is the time he places it, which is right around the most likely time of death and not an impossible one like other screams that were reported.

 

[Bill Williams]

What do you think of the arguments that are presented on Websleuths? They are, for the most part, convinced that they are guilty and have argued that the prosecution has proven it. I think they are convincing. They often argue that the footprints detected by luminol belonged to Amanda and that it does not matter whether or not the bra clasp was contaminated because Sollecito's DNA was not supposed to be on it in the first place.

The only thing of substance here is the footprint. Even if it is Amanda's, luminol is a presumptive test. The forensic point is.... is that Amanda's footprint in blood?

So is it Amanda's? Is it in blood? For some reason the PLE did not bother with the confirmatory test.

Also, I am not sure if Crini ever raised this. It would be fairly compelling if true, and one would think Crini would talk about that at length, rather than a kinfe-rint which does not match, or a fight over pooh in Filomena's toilet.

 

[Desert Fox]

That the murderer was black.

That is just common American perception of crime

 

[HotNostril]

Sorry but not a credible source.



You could try to explain how it could be proven the damage wasn't deliberate, but you really can't, can you?

Now I understand.

Amanda's book is the definitive credible source.

Got it

(That's was sarcastic)

 

[Dan O.]

Sorry, I'm not reading the entire thread.
My questions were in response to another poster. If you don't care to answer, just scroll on by. My feelings won't be hurt.

The original thread begins here: Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel with 15K posts then Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case with 25K posts, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196814 another 15K posts, Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case with 16K posts, Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case only 9K posts, Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case 12K posts, Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case almost 10K posts and now the current thread Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case that already has over 7500 posts in the last 2 months.


If your goal is to remain ignorant you have come to the wrong place.

 

[Bill Williams]

I assumed Rudy's foot remained with the rest of him that day making someone planting his footprint 100% impossible

Logically, if his foot was that bloody in the bathroom, it was even bloodier before he reached it.

Someone cleaned up the other prints.

My best guess is that they had dried and were cleaned up individually as the prints were visible, just as they were on that bathmat. No huge circular or swiping motions necessary. I'm only entertaining the idea it was Rudy's foot. I don't believe it was. I believe it was RS's foot.
I believe no one else had a reason to clean up, only, Amanda Knox.

I thought you weren't trying to be a jury...

The problem is that the same problem with a non-existent clean relates to both RS and RG. The clean-up in the hall simply did not happen.... whether swirls, large or small, blood wet or dried... luminol reacts with the iron in blood (as well as many other products, such as bleach and other cleaning products.

You simply cannot hide a clean-up. Not unless you are accusing the cleaners of being top-notch Mafia, crime scene cleaners... this is what people mean that alternately Amanda are seen as diabolical geniuses, and then on cue hopeless dunces.

 

[RoseMontague]

No I can't.

If you all want to pretend to be computer experts, DNA experts, digestive tract experts... fine.

All I can do is rely on what is written in the conclusion of the defense teams technical report. And check to see if Knox's defense filed a complaint about tampering or if it was brought up at trial. Or if the material was recovered or not. That's the best I can do.

This is a common misconception. The computer consultant was not a defense team expert and in fact in the defense team's 507 report as outlined in the quote from Massei and in the 507 request, they were not happy with some of the contradictions in the testimony and the report. As outlined in Massei they requested an further review at the end of the trial after the report had been issued and testimony taken.

From the 507 request...

IV) ESAME DEL PERITO NOMINATO DAL GIP PROFESSOR BERNASCHI CIRCA L’ANALISI DEGLI HARD DISK SEQUESTRATI

Il prof. Bernaschi è stato sentito all’udienza per l’incidente probatorio dell’ 8 aprile 2008, ed ha illustrato le sue conclusioni in merito allo shock elettrico che ha “bruciato” in maniera irrimediabile indicando alcune cause che avrebbero potuto provocare tale gusto tecnico. Ha tuttavia potuto clonare il contenuto degli hard disk di Kercher e di Sollecito, mentre non è stato potuto clonare l’hard disk di Knox. I contenuti dei menzionati hard disk non sono stati analizzati.

I difensori ritengono necessario una integrazione dell’esame del perito alla luce delle contrastanti dichiarazioni dibattimentali rese dai testi della Polizia Postale in merito alla consegna ed agli accertamenti dei personal computer sequestrati agli imputati in particolare gli esami di TROTTA Marco e TRIFICI Claudio del 14 marzo 2009 e GREGORI Mirko. L’utilizzo della macchina Logic Cube come riferito dai testimoni menzionati, non appare descritto nella relazione del Prof. Bernaschi Massimo del 21 marzo 2008 come non sono descritte le attività dei testimoni durante gli esami presso l’istituto del Prof. Bernaschi Massimo.

Si chiede, pertanto, che codesta Ecc.ma Corte voglia disporre l’esame del perito, Prof. Massimo Bernaschi.

 

[Grinder]

Logically, if his foot was that bloody in the bathroom, it was even bloodier before he reached it.

His pants were bloody as he mentioned and he went to the bathroom took off his show and sock (if he wore them) and washed off his pant leg using the bidet or shower and stepped on the mat with a still watery bloody foot leaving the print.

Someone cleaned up the other prints.

No prints to clean.

My best guess is that they had dried and were cleaned up individually as the prints were visible, just as they were on that bathmat. No huge circular or swiping motions necessary.

Doubtful that the blood would be completely dry but regardless blood doesn't clean easily at all. The remnants need not be huge but that takes some of pop out of your statement. If a cleanup had been done in the little time Rudy had and leaving other prints in place, the cleanup would have shown up on the 18th.

I'm only entertaining the idea it was Rudy's foot. I don't believe it was. I believe it was RS's foot.

I believe no one else had a reason to clean up, only, Amanda Knox.

Well there was no cleanup so it doesn't matter for whom you think would be.benefit.

The print isn't a match for either but looks much more like Rudy's.

 

[kcoh]

Grinder,

I was on the fence, but after reading this thread, I lean toward innocence because there are impossibilities present in the arguments that they are guilty and after reading the Massei report, I believe that the break-in was not staged, at all. The prosecution concluded that the break-in was staged on flimsy evidence. Filomena testified that she likely did not close the shutters, but the prosecution asserted that they were, in fact, closed and that one would need a tool in order to open them. This was an immediate red flag to me. Why would they assume that the shutters were closed when Filomena said it was not likely that she closed them? The glass was found scattered on the window sill and inside the room, which is what would occur if the rock was thrown from the outside, and Sergeant Pasquali, ballistics expert, testifies to this, but they come to the conclusion that it was "distributed in a homogeneous manner." Why?

Another thing that I found alarming was that it was testified that mixed traces of DNA is a normal circumstance and of no significance. But then the prosecution asserts that it is important and proves that the break-in was staged by Amanda.

From what I read, they did not even prove that the break-in was staged in the first place.

I am a little awestruck that people buy this since the conclusions of the prosecution are illogical. Perhaps it was that Rudy had broken in by using a rock like he had in previous burglaries. Yet they go into this tangent about a conspiracy between the three.

 

[Grinder]

Now I understand.

Amanda's book is the definitive credible source.

Got it

(That's was sarcastic)

I didn't quote it.

 

[Kaosium]

I need not consider any such thing.

Find me a source where it states in order for DNA evidence to be relevant every speck of DNA present at a crime scene must be accounted for and if not, labeled as contamination and tossed out of evidence.

How about I give you a source from the Italian independent court experts, both professors, that deemed the bra clasp and knife blade work by lab tech Stefanoni was unreliable?

 

[Dan O.]

Also, a clean itself would be revealed.... Massei goes out of his way to say that there is no smell of bleach at the cottage, which in my view is Massei's admission that if there'd been a clean it was not with bleach.

I have shown proof that there was a case for bleach used in the hall at the cottage.

 

[kcoh]

Grinder,

I guess what I am trying to say is that after reading the Massei report, it looked as if they were trying awfully hard to place Knox there without evidence and it did not matter to them if it made sense or not.

 

[HotNostril]

The original thread begins here: Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel with 15K posts then Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case with 25K posts, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196814 another 15K posts, Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case with 16K posts, Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case only 9K posts, Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case 12K posts, Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case almost 10K posts and now the current thread Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case that already has over 7500 posts in the last 2 months.





If your goal is to remain ignorant you have come to the wrong place.

I can barely stand reading the obnoxious & insulting posts I've read thus far.

I'd suggest you write a book on the subject since you've seemed to dedicate enormous amounts of time, (years apparently) researching the subject.
I'll even attend your book signing. (no I won't)

Just seems a little ridiculous you've made the choice to post to me twice, now taking the time to point out that I haven't invested the time that you have while insulting me... Instead of just answering my damn question!

If that's what you consider a worthwhile way to spend your time... Carry on and please put me on ignore.

 

[RoseMontague]

I have shown proof that there was a case for bleach used in the hall at the cottage.

Still cracks me up. What is new on this is that we now have Filomena's testimony and she says they used normal household cleaning supplies to clean, including bleach.