Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

It's a shame murderers don't always adhere to scientific standards and scientists don't investigate crimes.

Well it is certainly the case that in Italy scientists don't investigate crimes or do the analysis.

In Italy having a "Dr." in front of your name is not related to education or ability.

 

[HotNostril]

So Rudy is the murderer! Anyway, you still haven't explained what the police knew to be correct BEFORE Amanda made her statement.



They found one or two (that's for you Anglo) text messages between Amanda and PL and figured out that she had gone and met PL just about the time of the murder. Therefore, they knew he was involved and when she buckled after being told they KNEW PL had been there and she had involvement. The bilingual interrogator admitted in court that she while acting as if only a translator helped the rest of the interrogators by telling Amanda that she had had a repressed memory after an accident and that Amanda too could remember if she tried hard enough.



I wished the PGP would drop the "accusation" and the "super" witnesses and try to make a case that fits the known times and hard circumstantial evidence.

So they played good cop/bad cop with someone that could translate over tea & scones.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

towels and clothing are good sources for DNA

Agreed.

If you want me to ignore his DNA give me a reasonable alternative explain action for how it got there.

According to what I've read here, there is no other evidence of him anywhere at all. Except on a cigarette butt collected much earlier.
Are you now trying to convince me that his DNA was indeed elsewhere in the murder room and transferred to the clasp?
Are you trying to convince me it was a frame job?

One possibility is that his DNA got there the way three other men's DNA got there. Period (no need to say more). A second possibility is from the door to the gloves to the clasp, as I discussed yesterday. Given the griminess of the gloves and the fact that Stefanoni's views on how often to change gloves are simply wrong, this is quite reasonable. They should have used a pair of disposable tweezers and handled the item once. A third possibility is that Raffaele washed his hands in the bathroom (he prepared food, possibly on 1 November). Towels are a good source of DNA, and we know that Rudy took towels into Meredith's room. A fourth possibility is that DNA was transferred from Raffaele to Meredith's hands to the clasp, assuming that they shook hands or hugged. Clothing is practically a DNA-magnet and can contain DNA that is not from the wearer's immediate family (cite previously given). A fifth possibility is tampering. Given the fact that the clasp was stored in a closed container in the presence of extraction buffer causing the clasp to rot and rust, we can say that the strong balance of probability is that it was intentionally destroyed.

If you expect me to take the clasp as evidence against Raffaele, then you must believe that three other men also assaulted Meredith, or you must find a way to explain away their DNA.

 

[Vibio]

it's clear that the police were up to no good, and were seeking to get rid of potentially exculpatory evidence.

All material on Sollecito's compter was recovered. There was no physical evidence of tampering, no evidence that the damage was deliberate.

 

[acbytesla]

Can you quantify "a language she barely knew" for me please.

And remind me again what time the interpreter arrived & brought her a cappuccino?

Italian... and who cares about when the interpreter arrived? Does that change anything? Everyone is screaming at her. Is she replying in English? Or Italian? Are there issues with context or translation? And how would we know if there was or their wasn't?

We seen since in how those looking for Guilt have twisted Amanda's statement "that she was there" to meaning something it didn't. If you guys can do that, what makes you think that a police interpreter couldn't or didn't? This is why they really NEEDED to record this interrogation.

 

[HotNostril]

One possibility is that his DNA got there the way three other men's DNA got there. Period (no need to say more). A second possibility is from the door to the gloves to the clasp, as I discussed yesterday. Given the griminess of the gloves and the fact that Stefanoni's views on how often to change gloves are simply wrong, this is quite reasonable. They should have used a pair of disposable tweezers and handled the item once. A third possibility is that Raffaele washed his hands in the bathroom (he prepared food, possibly on 1 November). Towels are a good source of DNA, and we know that Rudy took towels into Meredith's room. A fourth possibility is that DNA was transferred from Raffaele to Meredith's hands to the clasp, assuming that they shook hands or hugged. Clothing is practically a DNA-magnet and can contain DNA that is not from the wearer's immediate family (cite previously given). A fifth possibility is tampering. Given the fact that the clasp was stored in a closed container in the presence of extraction buffer causing the clasp to rot and rust, we can say that the strong balance of probability is that it was intentionally destroyed.



If you expect me to take the clasp as evidence against Raffaele, then you must believe that three other men also assaulted Meredith, or you must find a way to explain away their DNA.

How large was the original sample?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

snow cones but no scones

Oooh my mistake ... Cranberry scones and tea...that does sound like torture...

Oh dear; I was being facetious about the scones. Perhaps they did have snow cones.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

The prosecution theory allows for the glass to have been broken from the outer side of the glass, but from inside the room by pulling the window in on the vertical axis and throwing it through that way. Of course that makes the broken glass pattern that was left at the scene rather impossible to achieve, which is why they never offered a demonstration, they just pretended anything could happen with broken glass and that explains it 'adequately.'

Thanks for this, and thanks to anglolawyer and abytesla also. I won't clog up the thread with multiple replies.

Ok, feel a bit dumb for not having gleaned this - my discussion is with people who seem to think that its either from the outside or inside and this is what I had thought the prosecution had suggested as well. I may have been distracted by John Douglas in the Forgotten Killer who says in the staged section of his chapter

"photos reveal that prior to breaking the window, the rock first struck the inside edge of the exterior shutter, indicating it was thrown from outside......glass fracture examination of the window would prove this." -

Anyway thanks for the replies. On a more general note, is there any source (meaning court) document that shows the lack of cooperation from the prosecution and/or refusals by the court of defence applications to test evidence? I'm having trouble finding English translations of the procedural stuff. Arguing that the process was weighted against the defendants is so much easier with source docs.

I won't keep doing this sorry

 

[Vibio]

Well it is certainly the case that in Italy scientists don't investigate crimes or do the analysis.

In Italy having a "Dr." in front of your name is not related to education or ability.

What a know-nothing comment.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

How large was the original sample?

I seem to recall that the autosomal sample was 1.14 ng, most of which was Meredith's DNA. But I could be wrong.

 

[Grinder]

HotNostril:

Re: Knox's DNA in the murder room.

In the majority of murder cases there are no biological traces left by the aggressor. That Knox's DNA was not found in the murder room even with a struggle means nothing.

I posted an example of a recent bloody murder in the US: none of his DNA at the scene... no blood on him.

No DNA in the murder room where she aided in a violent murder and many PGP theorize Meredith fought back and bloodied her nose yet DNA all over the house where no murder occurred and that is evidence that she was involved?

It seems clear that Amanda shedded DNA as it was found everywhere they looked EXCEPT the murder room. No hairs, no skin cells, no blood (blood on the faucet from Amanda) no prints, no identifiable footprints, etc. yet it means nothing - what again does mean something?

 

[acbytesla]

I would swear that you used to make the exact opposite point on rights to opinions.

OT - Tesla, how's Bertha?

Bertha's got a bad bearing...ugly.

 

[Welshman]

If the notion that biological traces do not transfer easily is valid and this explains why Amanda and Raffaele left no traces in Meredith's room, why have the prosecution not used this argument in three trials? In an interview Mignini was asked how Amanda could kill Meredith without leaving any forensic traces. His answer was that Amanda directed the murder from the corridor which was a complete change from his previous
position that Amanda killed Meredith in the room. Another explanation for the lack of forensic traces is that Amanda and Raffaele carried out a selective clean up where they erased their own forensic traces but left Guede's which would be impossible. Why did the prosecution have to use these arguments rather than say biological traces do not transfer easily? Why were the prosecution unable to find forensic experts to testify biological traces do not transfer easily?

 

[acbytesla]

Thanks for this, and thanks to anglolawyer and abytesla also. I won't clog up the thread with multiple replies.

Ok, feel a bit dumb for not having gleaned this - my discussion is with people who seem to think that its either from the outside or inside and this is what I had thought the prosecution had suggested as well. I may have been distracted by John Douglas in the Forgotten Killer who says in the staged section of his chapter

"photos reveal that prior to breaking the window, the rock first struck the inside edge of the exterior shutter, indicating it was thrown from outside......glass fracture examination of the window would prove this." -

Anyway thanks for the replies. On a more general note, is there any source (meaning court) document that shows the lack of cooperation from the prosecution and/or refusals by the court of defence applications to test evidence? I'm having trouble finding English translations of the procedural stuff. Arguing that the process was weighted against the defendants is so much easier with source docs.

I won't keep doing this sorry

No problem Suffolk. You're doing great. I'd recommend that you go to Youtube and watch the channel 5 documentary. They examine the window as well as the wall climb. Also read, Ron Hendry. A reconstruction engineer who examined the glass evidence from the bedroom. He shows clearly how the window was broken by a rock thrown from outside. So does Channel 5. Channel 5 mentions that 100 percent conclusive proof would have been available if the police had looked at the edge of the glass under a microscope. But that was NEVER done..too late now.

 

[Vibio]

Why wouldn't there be an equal amount evidence of Amanda and Raffaele? The clothes that Amanda wore that night are known. So are the shoes that the pair owned. if, as the prosecution alleges Amanda had a hand in restraining Meredith, there would probably be DNA transfer, as I have discussed on many occasions with cites to the literature.

No, not necessarily.

Patrick Latko trial 2011:

""But while no DNA found matched Latko’s, Shill argued the circumstantial evidence links him to the deaths of the mother and son in their South Madison Avenue home."

"But not a drop of blood was found on Latko or his belongings, argued public defender Kevin Moses.

“So there were 20 stab wounds, two slit throats....so whoever did this would've been a bloody mess,” Moses said to the jury."

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/...88e-b266-11e2-8658-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=jqm

---------------

In closing arguments earlier Wednesday, the defense began by claiming that the evidence in the fatal stabbings did not directly implicate Latko, 33, in the deaths.

But while no DNA found matched Latko’s, Chief Assistant Prosecutor Cary Shill argued the circumstantial evidence links him to the deaths of the mother and son in their South Madison Avenue home.

Is Latko “the unluckiest guy in the world? Or did he kill Ryan and Diana Patterson?” Shill asked.

Public defender Kevin Moses pointed out that not a drop of blood was found on Latko or his belongings.

“So there were 20 stab wounds, two slit throats ... so whoever did this would've been a bloody mess,” Moses said to the jury.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/...e62-b29a-11e2-bdce-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=jqm

(Latko was found guilty on solid evidence... but DNA at the scene or blood on him? No.)

 

[Grinder]

Amanda's version of the loud scream could be known to Rudy as it was published in the media on the day of arrest, so his report is not necessarily independent.

There was no report of a scream by anyone that night or the next day. No witness came forward for months. There is no credible evidence that there ever was a scream as all the ear witnesses came forward long after the scream in Amanda's and Rudy's statements were made public.

Most anyone asked to imagine what went on that night, as Amanda was, would think that Meredith would have screamed just like in the movies.

 

[RoseMontague]

Thanks for this, and thanks to anglolawyer and abytesla also. I won't clog up the thread with multiple replies.

Ok, feel a bit dumb for not having gleaned this - my discussion is with people who seem to think that its either from the outside or inside and this is what I had thought the prosecution had suggested as well. I may have been distracted by John Douglas in the Forgotten Killer who says in the staged section of his chapter

"photos reveal that prior to breaking the window, the rock first struck the inside edge of the exterior shutter, indicating it was thrown from outside......glass fracture examination of the window would prove this." -

Anyway thanks for the replies. On a more general note, is there any source (meaning court) document that shows the lack of cooperation from the prosecution and/or refusals by the court of defence applications to test evidence? I'm having trouble finding English translations of the procedural stuff. Arguing that the process was weighted against the defendants is so much easier with source docs.

I won't keep doing this sorry

Which trial? Request were made and refused in each trial. Massei lists some of the requests in his motivation report.

at the hearing of October 9, 2009 the Defences articulated requests for expert reports according to the provisions of Article 507 of the Criminal Procedure Code.
In particular, a medico-legal expert report was requested, with the aim of ascertaining in terms of greater practicability in respect of the indications furnished: the time of death of Meredith Kercher (once a time band narrower than that indicated by the technical consultants of the Prosecutor or of the panel of experts under the preliminary investigations judge [the GIP], it would be possible to verify whether Raffaele Sollecito had interacted with his PC within a more precisely defined timeframe); the dynamics of the action of the murder, also in reference to the infallibility of the presence, or otherwise, of a number of agents; the repetition of the genetic investigations, or at least the revaluation of the traces with reference to Exhibits 165B and 36, the procedures/methodology of the gathering of the exhibits undertaken by the genetics expert of the Scientific Police, Dr Stefanoni, who carried out the verifications, having been questioned; an expert audiometric test was sought, to be undertaken to establish whether the witness Nara Capezzali, on the premise of the presence in her dwelling of double-glazed windows, was able to hear the noises and the screams of which she had given an account in her deposition; an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analysis of the supports carried out by the Postal Police, such that the hard drives could not be duplicated/cloned for subsequent examination.
The Court disallowed all the requests, on the grounds that the additional expert reports requested did not appear necessary, since the very ample dialectic contribution from the expert witnesses of the private parties offered sufficient material to take a position without additional expertise.

At the hearing of December 4 the Defence for Sollecito concluded the rebuttals, submitting a memorandum evidencing that on the site of the inspection of May 25, 2009, on the pillowcase of the pillow found in the victim’s room some stains had
been found with the ‚crimescope‛ that could have been spermatic in nature and that these had not been the object of any genetic analysis. In relation to this contention, various questions were raised as to the necessity of testing relative to these stains.

I have the 507 request if you want it (Italian)

 

[Grinder]

Hello

First, thanks to everyone for an interesting and informative thread. I have been reading it for well over a year.

I have registered because I am in discussions on another forum and the issue of the possible forensic test on the glass has arisen. I am aware that there is a simple test which could establish that the glass was broken from the inside or outside, but that this was not carried out by the prosecution. It has been put to me that the defence should have done this test to protect their client and obviously this is right. I am aware that the prosecution were not terribly forthcoming with cooperation in the DNA tests, but I cannot find whether or not the defence attempted to carry out the test on glass and whether or not it was refused. I know that many defence motions were refused but I have trawled through a few sites without joy on this issue.

Can anyone help me on this issue? With source documents? I'm sorry if this has been covered earlier, I have read many many pages but can't remember if any details of why the test was not carried out was referred to. Thanks in advance.

One issue is that the window could have been broken from the outside and still been staged so the test wouldn't prove anything. The window could have been broken by tossing the rock from the park area or they could have opened the window and thrown it from inside the room but through the outside of the glass.

 

[Vibio]

No problem Suffolk. You're doing great. I'd recommend that you go to Youtube and watch the channel 5 documentary. They examine the window as well as the wall climb. Also read, Ron Hendry. A reconstruction engineer who examined the glass evidence from the bedroom. He shows clearly how the window was broken by a rock thrown from outside. So does Channel 5. Channel 5 mentions that 100 percent conclusive proof would have been available if the police had looked at the edge of the glass under a microscope. But that was NEVER done..too late now.

The video uses clever cuts, misrepresents the climber (he's an expert climber and teaches rock climbing here in Italy), the climber conducts the climb in bright daylight rather than at night, the video is not shot from a distance so we can follow the climbers moves ...etc.

And the truth is Massei never claims in his motivations report that it is impossible to climb up to that window.

It's a non issue.

-------------------

"Also read, Ron Hendry. A reconstruction engineer who examined the glass evidence from the bedroom. "

This Ron Hendrey fellow examined the glass evidence? When was he in Italy? He visited the crime scene?

Please tell us how it went.

 

[acbytesla]

The video uses clever cuts, misrepresents the climber (he's an expert climber and teaches rock climbing here in Italy), the climber conducts the climb in bright daylight rather than at night, the video is not shot from a distance so we can follow the climbers moves ...etc.

And the truth is Massei never claims in his motivations report that it is impossible to climb up to that window.

It's a non issue.

You're right. It's a non issue. The climber also did it it in seconds and said most anyone could do it. There is NO proof of a staging. There is no reason that burglar couldn't or wouldn't make the crime.