Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

She asked for paper sheets and pen.

Yeah, well, they should have brought her a lawyer.

The "gift" statement is a continuing violation of Knox's human rights, because even though she wrote it ostensibly on her own initiative, it is clearly an effort to correct the wrong that was inflicted on her when the thugs interrogated her sans counsel . . . and hit her.

The denial of counsel was not remedied until Knox had effective assistance of counsel, and that was not until after Matteini threw them in jail for a year.

 

[Machiavelli]

It takes more than one hand to lift a pillow?

And a body. You forget the body. You need to place it under the body, isn't that what he is supposed to have done?

PS: To me, the palm print doesn't look like anything, since I was never able to identify its features. But if the thumb and fingers are on the same side, of it the finger are on the superior side, it is balance not grabbing; if it is a grabbing of the pillow, the thiumb and the other fingers must be on opposite sides, the thumb must be on the superior side and the fingers on the side facing the floor.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, well, they should have brought her a lawyer.

They should not have don that. They were good, they followed the law and applied art. 104.

The "gift" statement is a continuing violation of Knox's human rights, because even though she wrote it ostensibly on her own initiative, it is clearly an effort to correct the wrong that was inflicted on her when the thugs interrogated her sans counsel . . . and hit her.

It's a pity she repeated her accusations against an innocent man, that she added further accusations and false testimony, giving the proof she is a manipulative liar, all this voluntarily and without any suggestion, isn't it?

 

[Machiavelli]

At that point did anyone warn her they'd ignore her message, then cherry pick a line out of it completely at odds with the rest of the note and use it against her in court?

The whole of the message is worse than simply one line.

 

[RoseMontague]

And a body. You forget the body. You need to place it under the body, isn't that what he is supposed to have done?

PS: To me, the palm print doesn't look like anything, since I was never able to identify its features. But if the thumb and fingers are on the same side, of it the finger are on the superior side, it is balance not grabbing; if it is a grabbing of the pillow, the thiumb and the other fingers must be on opposite sides, the thumb must be on the superior side and the fingers on the side facing the floor.

Are you telling me Guede was not capable of placing a pillow under her body by himself. Seriously?

 

[Machiavelli]

At that point did anyone warn her they'd ignore her message, then cherry pick a line out of it completely at odds with the rest of the note and use it against her in court?

Also, there is nothing "at odds" in her message. Her memoriale has all its lines entirely calculated and balanced, each statement has a function and they all depend on each other, the redaction is sophisticated and self-controlled. Every concept has a caveat, every assertion is balanced and framed by another, the writer searches to methodically construe ambiguity. Her intent is to offer a rationalizing justifying frame for ambiguity. The purpose of the note is build a logical construction to "protect" ambiguity.

 

[christianahannah]

They will not make a decision until they have to, and that may not be for many years. Until then, they are diplomats uttering platitudes to sooth Italian interests.

Don't you think if there were specific instances of irregularities reported to the State Department they would investigate them, or at the very least, address them?

I agree they will not make a decision concerning extradition until asked to do so (if the case proceeds to that point) and then they will work together with the Justice Department.

 

[Machiavelli]

Are you telling me Guede was not capable of placing a pillow under her body by himself. Seriously?

Don't try to wriggle away. You perfectly understood it: if guede lifted a body and placed a pillow under it with his bloody hands, he should have left bloody smears or hand prints on the body.
Did you understand it?

 

[Diocletus]

They should not have don that. They were good, they followed the law and applied art. 104.



It's a pity she repeated her accusations against an innocent man, that she added further accusations and false testimony, giving the proof she is a manipulative liar, all this voluntarily and without any suggestion, isn't it?

You think this cp 104 is more important than the echr? It's not. Cp 104 is illegal as applied in this case.

She tried to exercise self help to remedy migninis violation of her human rights. She was denied counsel when she had a right to it and that was used to prejudice her. No one cares about who asked for the pen unless it was used to sign a paper that says "I know I can have a lawyer but I don't want one"

 

[kwill]

Her memoriale has all its lines entirely calculated and balanced, each statement has a function and they all depend on each other, the redaction is sophisticated and self-controlled.

Every concept has a caveat, every assertion is balanced and framed by another, the writer searches to methodically construe ambiguity.

Her intent is to offer a rationalizing justifying frame for ambiguity. The purpose of the note is build a logical construction to "protect" ambiguity.

I just needed to air that out a little bit, to appreciate the full weight of it.

Amanda Knox: calculated and balanced, sophisticated and self-controlled, logical to a fault.

Oh my lord. This is the one and only time the "party girl slacker druggie sexpot slob" of feverish guilter dreams will be described in such terms -- when it suits them.

 

[RoseMontague]

Don't try to wriggle away. You perfectly understood it: if guede lifted a body and placed a pillow under it with his bloody hands, he should have left bloody smears or hand prints on the body.
Did you understand it?

You have evidence that both his hands were bloody and he didn't just wipe one of his hands off on his pants or a towel. Your proof is full of holes. It is just silly.

 

[Machiavelli]

You think this cp 104 is more important than the echr? It's not. Cp 104 is illegal as applied in this case.

Art 104 cpp is due and compulsory in this case.

She tried to exercise self help to remedy migninis violation of her human rights. She was denied counsel when she had a right to it and that was used to prejudice her.

She wrote false testimony, demonstrating her "remedy" to things consists in lying; she wrote false testimony containing false accusations against an innocent man, showing she intended to accuse an innocent. She stated she does not know what the truth is, and that she does not believe her own memory, so why should anyone else believe her? She added further unsolicited accusations and construed a justification for ambiguity. Her method is clear. This hand written note is evidence under all point of view, this evidence will remain, and the ECHR will do nothing about it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Don't you think if there were specific instances of irregularities reported to the State Department they would investigate them, or at the very least, address them?

I agree they will not make a decision concerning extradition until asked to do so (if the case proceeds to that point) and then they will work together with the Justice Department.

Like most things in politics, it is just not that simple. Maybe if you are lucky.

 

[RoseMontague]

Art 104 cpp is due and compulsory in this case.



She wrote false testimony, demonstrating her "remedy" to things consists in lying; she wrote false testimony containing false accusations against an innocent man, showing she intended to accuse an innocent. She stated she does not know what the truth is, and that she does not believe her own memory, so why should anyone else believe her? She added further unsolicited accusations and construed a justification for ambiguity. Her method is clear. This hand written note is evidence under all point of view, this evidence will remain, and the ECHR will do nothing about it.

She wrote what the cops wanted her to imagine, and even told them they should not rely on her statement.

 

[Strozzi]

They will not make a decision until they have to, and that may not be for many years. Until then, they are diplomats uttering platitudes to sooth Italian interests.

I live in Washington DC. I assure you the US Department of State has received reporting from US Embassy officials on this case and particularly on allegations regarding mistreatment of American citizens by the PLE. It would be classified information as it concerns US citizens and allegations of mistreatment.

There would also have been communication between the US Embassy and the Italian Foreign Ministry regarding allegations of assault against an American citizen in police custody. The Italian Government knows that the US Government is concerned. The communications would be classified.

The US Government is neutral as concerns the merits of a criminal case against an American citizen, but the US Government is not blind to abuse of US citizens overseas. Remember not all Italian police, judicial, political, security, and intelligence officials may believe all is right in this case and some may express their personal or organizational views or insight on a "background" basis. That information will be reported to Washington. It would be classified.

 

[Caper]

Yeah Mach... Why are you assuming both hands are bloody? Why do they both need to be bloody?

 

[Machiavelli]

You have evidence that both his hands were bloody and he didn't just wipe one of his hands off on his pants or a towel. Your proof is full of holes. It is just silly.

We are not talking about evidence or proof. The element suggesting Guede committed a post-mortem rape are merely suggestive. They are not evidence. They are full of holes too.
I can pick up elements equally valid against and contradicting your theory? He murders someone shalshing her throat, grabbing her mouth and blocking her arm, only one of his hands gets bloody? Is that realistic? And then, he holds the body with just one hand (the left one?)? And does he have cuts on his hands? He wipes her hands on a towel before or after picking up the pillow (before? no print on pillow. After? He must lif the body before that). And does his hands come out clean from blood just wiping it on fabric?
And why there is no trace of his DNA in the bathroom where he was supposedly washing his hands (and feet!).
Then he "rapes", he grabs a body with his hands and his hands happen to be both perfectly clean, he does not leave a single trace from his hands on her body, a smear in diluted blood on her skin. Not even a smear of the blood drops on her breast.

This obviously does not sum up the whole series of illogical assumptions and "holes". We didn't get to the bloody foot and foot-rinsing part yet. Or how a person bleeding to death would suffer bruises. Etc.

 

[Machiavelli]

She wrote what the cops wanted her to imagine, and even told them they should not rely on her statement.

Not at all. She did not write that at all. She also did not say that: she was interrogated on Dec. 17. and never said anyone asked her to imagine things.
(moreover, it would make no sense for a detective to ask someone to imagine things).
Actually, she was asked nothing. She released a statement, without anyone asking questions. More than one statement. A series of writings and further statmenets.

 

[Kaosium]

Also, there is nothing "at odds" in her message. Her memoriale has all its lines entirely calculated and balanced, each statement has a function and they all depend on each other, the redaction is sophisticated and self-controlled. Every concept has a caveat, every assertion is balanced and framed by another, the writer searches to methodically construe ambiguity. Her intent is to offer a rationalizing justifying frame for ambiguity. The purpose of the note is build a logical construction to "protect" ambiguity.

It's an ode to confusion, not some meticulously crafted and calculated sophistry. She was barely out of her teens! She was sitting in solitary being denied a lawyer and trying to explain what the stress, exhaustion, yelling, hitting and untruths she'd been told had done to her mind the night before.

At any rate you did at least notice the repeated ambiguity. There should be points for that even though it seems to come across as some sinister plot...


Back to the point. When being thrown into solitary and denied access to a lawyer is there any documentation that she was aware that this would be used against her in court?

 

[kcoh]

I am not sure if they are innocent or guilty. I change my mind every other day. It is that confusing to me. Some make the argument that since they were found guilty twice, that must mean they are beyond a reasonable doubt. It is a convincing argument. Now the U.S. State Department declares that there was no wrongdoing. However, a lot of it seems nearly impossible. No one has answered this question for me yet. How was it possible for them to wipe away their own DNA from the crime scene whilst leaving Guede's? I do not understand how this is possible.