Is Amway A Scam?

[Joecool]

Yes

However, I'm more a customer than a businessman.
I'm very happy with the products and even more happy with UK prices.
Better products and saving money - brilliant
I gave maybe 10 presentations to my friends.


I can't do real business just yet as I'm very busy getting a mortgage.
I know I need to give presentation to about 2000 people to start making real money.
I need a good plan and some time to put such amount of work into the business.

How would you feel if you were in the US without the decent prices of Amway products that you enjoy in the UK?

 

[C1REX]

How would you feel if you were in the US without the decent prices of Amway products that you enjoy in the UK?

If I wouldn't like amway US then I wouldn't be a customer and couldn't recommend the products.

However, lowest prices is not always a priority.
Can amway US prices can be explained or not?

Cheapests restaurant are not always better than more expensive ones.
Same as cars, bikes, computers, cosmetics, soap etc.

Double X is 18x more expensive than Centrum in UK (about £50 vs £2.7).
However, I take Double X because it's the only vitamins I've ever tried that I feel a difference.


Amway products are not basic ones. When you compare to similar products then US prices start to look more attractive.

LEGACY OF CLEAN™ SA8® Laundry Detergent cost $19.80 for 50 loads.
Expensive product. Few times more than the cheapest one on the market.
However, let check the description and find a similar product on amazon.

"Description
You work hard to keep everything clean. Shouldn’t your detergent? This one seeks out dirt and stains, leaving nothing behind but a fresh, floral scent – so your clothes look great and smell good, too.
Benefits
Works hard every day to leave your clothes clean and naturally soft.
Rinses clean in all water temperatures, even in cold water.
Biodegradable formula.
No phosphates, chlorine, or other unpleasant ingredients, so it’s safer for the environment.
Concentrated, so less is more.
Dermatologist and allergy tested.
Safe and effective in all washers, even HE (high efficiency)."


Tide Coldwater cost $99 for 208 loads. $25 for 52 loads.

"Acti-Lift formula lifts off dry stains with ease
Phosphate-free and made of biodegradable soaps; safe for septic systems and packaging is recyclable
Contains more cleaning ingredients, less water
A low-sudsing detergent that provides great cleaning performance in high efficiency machines.
Tide Coldwater provides a deep clean cold water, making it the coolest way to clean."


The description of amway still looks better and amway is known for giving an avarage number of loads - not maximum. There is also a discount for registered IBOs.

It depends how you look at the pricing.

 

[gnome]

Reading product descriptions is not necessarily the best way to decide quality. Has there been an independent rating comparing the products?

 

[C1REX]

It's probably not the best way but it's easy to do comparison test based on a list of specifications.

In this case it would be:

Biodegradable
Dermatologist tested
Cold water friendly
High efficient machine friendly
Concentrated
No posphates
No chlorine
Sceptic safe

There maybe a better way to compare quality but this simple comparisons shows what the product does that most competing products don't.

If there is a product with similar specifications then very likely is more expensive.

 

[Joecool]

Reading product descriptions is not necessarily the best way to decide quality. Has there been an independent rating comparing the products?

Consumer reports (sorry, I don't have the link now) rated Amway products as average in quality and premium in prices. A link was posted on www.amquix.info.

 

[icerat]

Reading product descriptions is not necessarily the best way to decide quality. Has there been an independent rating comparing the products?

Back in 2006 when comparing ecologically friendly washing powders in cold water washes, Consumer Reports ranked SA8 #1, scoring 99 out of 100, ranking it excellent on everything except the price, which they actually got wrong. A few years later they tested the exact same powder in another comparison (with hot water and all powders, not just eco) and ranked it 6th, but scoring it 60 out of 100 (best was 82).

Only thing I can figure is that it must peform much better in cold water than hot water, and other ecologically friendly powders don't work so well.

My mum used it when I was a kid, so I have a bit of an emotional attachment to it, though there's also good reason to believe it may be a healthier option as well.

 

[Joecool]

Back in 2006 when comparing ecologically friendly washing powders in cold water washes, Consumer Reports ranked SA8 #1, scoring 99 out of 100, ranking it excellent on everything except the price, which they actually got wrong. A few years later they tested the exact same powder in another comparison (with hot water and all powders, not just eco) and ranked it 6th, but scoring it 60 out of 100 (best was 82).

Only thing I can figure is that it must peform much better in cold water than hot water, and other ecologically friendly powders don't work so well.

My mum used it when I was a kid, so I have a bit of an emotional attachment to it, though there's also good reason to believe it may be a healthier option as well.

And price is everything for most people. And that's where Amway falls short most of the time.

 

[Cain]

My parents did Amway back in the early 90s. The woman who get them in was named Pamela Anderson. Of course, she wasn't THE Pamela Anderson, but she was 5'7" with long blonde hair, maybe in her early 40s, and worked as a flight-attendant. My friends would be over and we'd get a voice-mail message from Pamela Anderson. The way their eyes bulged, I thought they were gonna race to the bathroom to make the bald man cry.

It sounded exactly like a scam, but my parents said it was legit, and people had gotten rich off it. I remember my parents invited their friends over, and Ms. Anderson gave her spiel. Craziness. I wonder if the parents are embarrassed by the whole episode. Come to think of it, that was around the time Mom lost her job, and had to make chocolate chip cookies without chocolate chips. That sucked.

 

[C1REX]

And price is everything for most people. And that's where Amway falls short most of the time.

Amway is not for most people but for those who like the products and price.


Calling it failing is a bit unfair I believe. There are many good products out there that are not the cheapest (Apple, Sony, BMW). Amway seems to be very well priced comparing to similar products anyway.



Cheers
Kris

 

[Joecool]

Amway is not for most people but for those who like the products and price.


Calling it failing is a bit unfair I believe. There are many good products out there that are not the cheapest (Apple, Sony, BMW). Amway seems to be very well priced comparing to similar products anyway.

Cheers
Kris

Not sure about the UK, but I wonder how many customers (who are non IBO's) purchase Amway products in the US (Amway doesn't reveal it) and how many former IBO's continue to purchase products once their dream of going diamond fades away? I don't know of many former IBO's who keep buying.

In fact, if former IBO's kept buying, Amway NA would have huge sales increases every year, considering they have approximately a 50+% turnover in IBO's each year, with about 300,000 IBO's in the US/Canada. But they don't.

 

[C1REX]

Not sure about the UK, but I wonder how many customers (who are non IBO's) purchase Amway products in the US (Amway doesn't reveal it) and how many former IBO's continue to purchase products once their dream of going diamond fades away? I don't know of many former IBO's who keep buying.

In fact, if former IBO's kept buying, Amway NA would have huge sales increases every year, considering they have approximately a 50+% turnover in IBO's each year, with about 300,000 IBO's in the US/Canada. But they don't.

I'm not sure if it matters how many customers pay retail price and how many have registered to pay wholesale price.

 

[marplots]

I'm not sure if it matters how many customers pay retail price and how many have registered to pay wholesale price.

It should matter because that's where the money ultimately has to come from. Otherwise, you have a situation where distributors are just exchanging money between themselves.

 

[Joecool]

I'm not sure if it matters how many customers pay retail price and how many have registered to pay wholesale price.

In the US, there is no option of registering just to buy at whole sale. Amway is not a buyer's club. You have to register as an IBO. Also, in the US, the prices are generally higher, even at IBO prices.

Also, as stated, if Amway is just primarily IBO's and wholesale customers, then it might raise red flags of illegal pyramid as the money for bonuses are coming nearly exclusively from people who are participating in the scheme.

 

[icerat]

It should matter because that's where the money ultimately has to come from. Otherwise, you have a situation where distributors are just exchanging money between themselves.

You're forgetting the volume discounts. In Europe someone purchasing 10000 points with of volume gets a "wholesale price" 21% cheaper than someone purchasing 100 points worth of stuff, who gets it ~25% cheaper than someone paying full recommended retail.

There's a whole range of profit margins there, and in between.

 

[marplots]

You're forgetting the volume discounts. In Europe someone purchasing 10000 points with of volume gets a "wholesale price" 21% cheaper than someone purchasing 100 points worth of stuff, who gets it ~25% cheaper than someone paying full recommended retail.

There's a whole range of profit margins there, and in between.

I didn't forget that. We were talking about money going to distributors, not Amway's profit. In all circumstances, Amway makes a profit. However, from the point of view of a distributor, only money that ends up in the distributor's pocket is a concern.

Without retail sales, it's distributors passing money to each other.

 

[icerat]

I didn't forget that. We were talking about money going to distributors, not Amway's profit. In all circumstances, Amway makes a profit. However, from the point of view of a distributor, only money that ends up in the distributor's pocket is a concern.

Without retail sales, it's distributors passing money to each other.

No, just because someone has the right to be a distributor doesn't mean they are.

It's a potential issue if everyone is "participating in the scheme". It's a fallacy to believe that everyone who signs a membership form is "participating2 though. As Canada puts it -

A participant in an MLM plan is an individual who actively engages in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan.​

As noted ad nauseum on this thread, most people who register with Amway (or other MLMs) do not come close to fulfilling this definition.

 

[xjx388]

No, just because someone has the right to be a distributor doesn't mean they are.

It's a potential issue if everyone is "participating in the scheme". It's a fallacy to believe that everyone who signs a membership form is "participating2 though. As Canada puts it -

A participant in an MLM plan is an individual who actively engages in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan.​

As noted ad nauseum on this thread, most people who register with Amway (or other MLMs) do not come close to fulfilling this definition.

Exactly. Amway is just a bunch of people joining a buying club, in effect. The way to actually make any kind of money is to convince others to join and have them buy under you. Almost no one sells outside of the plan. As the FTC warns, "It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." Since no one is really selling products outside the plan, wouldn't it be best not to get involved with Amway?

 

[marplots]

No, just because someone has the right to be a distributor doesn't mean they are.

It's a potential issue if everyone is "participating in the scheme". It's a fallacy to believe that everyone who signs a membership form is "participating2 though. As Canada puts it -

A participant in an MLM plan is an individual who actively engages in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan.​

As noted ad nauseum on this thread, most people who register with Amway (or other MLMs) do not come close to fulfilling this definition.

In the general case, your method of shifting focus, first from in-house sales to make one point and then to outside sales to make another - this works well enough, although it's a rhetorical sleight of hand. But here we are talking about a particular distributor and his/her experiences.

My comments are in that context. It is no longer reasonable to evaluate things on the general case re: Amway overall. We have a patient right in front of us with specific symptoms.

 

[icerat]

Exactly. Amway is just a bunch of people joining a buying club, in effect. The way to actually make any kind of money is to convince others to join and have them buy under you. Almost no one sells outside of the plan.

Did you just completely ignore the definition of "outside of the plan" (ie participant in the scheme) I just gave?

That aside, it depends how you define "almost no one". In the US, anyone who wants to develop an income has to have at least 50 points of registered customer volume every month or they don't earn bonuses on group volume. In the UK you don't get any bonuses unless you've got at least 5 registered customer orders. Network 21, the largest Amway affiliated training company, operating in some 40 countries, teaches that you should have at least as many personal retail customers as people you've sponsored in to the network.

Given that very few people who register with Amway are actually operating Amway businesses, then from that perspective, yes, few "sell outside the plan" - the few that are actually building Amway businesses.

As the FTC warns, "It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." Since no one is really selling products outside the plan, wouldn't it be best not to get involved with Amway?

So yes, apparently you did completely ignore the definition of "outside of the plan" and use your own.

 

[icerat]

In the general case, your method of shifting focus, first from in-house sales to make one point and then to outside sales to make another - this works well enough, although it's a rhetorical sleight of hand. But here we are talking about a particular distributor and his/her experiences.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The Canadian advice states in the plain english the same position the FTC, EU, various US states, Australia etc etc holds.

Are you claiming all these law making bodies are actually wrong about what their laws mean?

My comments are in that context. It is no longer reasonable to evaluate things on the general case re: Amway overall. We have a patient right in front of us with specific symptoms.

A question for you MP - from the information given so far, do you believe C1REX is "actively engag[ing] in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan"?