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WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

Why not blow the 2009 Bentham paper out of the water by taking a few minutes to heat his no longer needed chip samples a further 30C in his muffle furnace????

Because that wasn't his objective. His objective was to analyse the chips and determine their composition.

Meanwhile your claim that he tested 'the wrong chips' has been challenged by several people here, showing with crystal clarity how the Harrit paper contradicts your claim. Why don't you answer them, ideally showing your sources (as they have)?
 
With respect to this thread's topic, I wonder why Millette did not answer what for him would have been an even more trivial question.

Why not blow the 2009 Bentham paper out of the water by taking a few minutes to heat his no longer needed chip samples a further 30C in his muffle furnace????

The only credible explanation I can think of is that such an easily performed test risked discrediting his previously formed 'safe' opinion.

If he was so certain that his a-d chips were a chemical match for those chips of interest that were highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper, than he had no reason for not discrediting the paper using similar test methodology.

Of course if he ended up with only paint ash residue, it would be clear proof that his a-d chips were not a chemical match for the a-d chips of interest that were highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper.

Because that wasn't his objective. His objective was to analyse the chips and determine their composition.

Meanwhile your claim that he tested 'the wrong chips' has been challenged by several people here, showing with crystal clarity how the Harrit paper contradicts your claim. Why don't you answer them, ideally showing your sources (as they have)?

Sorry Glenn, but the way Millette's investigation was originally promoted by Chris Mohr, was that he was going to follow the 2009 Bentham paper testing protocols as closely as possible.

Millette failed to determine what the composition of those chips were since he never proved the chips he examined met all the stated criteria.

Of course my mismatch claim (and Dr. Jones publicly claims as well), is challenged 'here'.

It's what people only interested in suppressing the truth do.

MM
 
Millette failed to determine what the composition of those chips were since he never proved the chips he examined met all the stated criteria.

Of course my mismatch claim (and Dr. Jones publicly claims as well), is challenged 'here'.

Then you need to show (for the first time, I should add, after many such requests) that Harrit et al used resistivity as a selection criterion, either for each individual chip or as a generalised method to learn to identify the 'correct' chips.

You have never shown this and it isn't in the Bentham paper. If you have information in support of your claim that's not available in Bentham then we would be very interested (and Millette was denied information essential to his tests, incidentally).
 
Glenn and MM,

I'm going by memory here. If I recall, I think MM caught my mistake a couple years ago. I was flying by the seat of my pants (marrying ministers are not used to organzing scientific studies) and I may have said two contradictory things in the beginning: one, that I was going to let "Lab Guy" do his job and not tell him what protocol to use.... just to ask, "is this thermite?" That, of course, is what Jim Millette did. But MM or someone may have also caught me saying at one point that I was going to have someone match the protocol of the Bentham paper. If my memory is correct, then my mistake... not Jim Millette's.

MM and others: I believe Oystein or someone got an email from Niels Harrit who stated something to the effect that the resistivity test was not part of the core protocol but just a secondary test of some kind. If my memory is correct there, that would explain why the resistivity was reported to be done on only one chip and not listed along with other selection criteria they established (such as red-grey, attracted by a magnet). Does anyone remember this email?
 
Millette failed to determine what the composition of those chips were since he never proved the chips he examined met all the stated criteria. MM
Absolute rubbish and you know it. When I take Georgio through the comparison everyone will see that Millette did study the correct chips, namely those that matched chips a-d. You will disagree no matter what because you lose face and have to back track on everything you've said if you agree.

You can't even agree with everyone else that chips a-d are the same material in Harrit et al!

Are the chips a-d in Harrit et al the same material?

Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question when there is no conjecture or argument over this issue? Cue a dodgy and mealy mouthed reply.
 
MM and others: I believe Oystein or someone got an email from Niels Harrit who stated something to the effect that the resistivity test was not part of the core protocol but just a secondary test of some kind. If my memory is correct there, that would explain why the resistivity was reported to be done on only one chip and not listed along with other selection criteria they established (such as red-grey, attracted by a magnet). Does anyone remember this email?

I found the following in an exchange involving Oystein, but the quote was from a Harrit email received by Gamolon :

"The resistivity test were done in random on the chips already isolated as described. The information obtained must be considered "supplementary material".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9102773#post9102773

If it's as stated then the resistivity test was not part of the selection protocol.

And in

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9255140#post9255140

Gamolon relates -

"please explain why he, in the video below, talks about a large jar of dust he just received, from which he takes a small sample and puts it into a plastic bag in order to give to the audience to separate with a magnet."

and (Harrit speaking) -

"With a little bit of luck, you may also get a chance to see.. I don't know about this sample, I just got it yesterday morning, I don't know how much is in it, but these red, we call them chips, is what we're gonna talk about for the next 20 minutes or half hour. "

i.e. he is stating to the audience that the red chips on the magnet are 'the chips of interest'.

But MM was doing the denial dance pretty frantically back then too. No change, I see.
 
MM and others: I believe Oystein or someone got an email from Niels Harrit who stated something to the effect that the resistivity test was not part of the core protocol but just a secondary test of some kind. If my memory is correct there, that would explain why the resistivity was reported to be done on only one chip and not listed along with other selection criteria they established (such as red-grey, attracted by a magnet). Does anyone remember this email?
It was actually Gamolon, in this very thread (p.69, message #2733). Miragememories was made aware of it but he refused to acknowledge that fact.

If at the very least, he applied the easy YES/NO Resistance test described in the 2009 Bentham paper and then ran his tests, his argument that his findings were based on similar 9/11 WTC dust chips would carry more weight.

If this resistivity test was done to further separate red/gray, magnetically attracted paint chips and red/gray magnetically attracted thermite chips, then why did Harrit say this to me in an email?

Harrit said:
The resistivity test were done in random on the chips already isolated as described. The information obtained must be considered "supplementary material".

They didn't run resistivity tests on the chips already separated and THEN run the rest of the tests in the paper. It was an afterthought to show that in testing some random chips, they could assume ALL the chips isolated with the above criteria were thermite.

You have it backwards.

ETA: Oops, GlennB beat me to it.
 
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I somehow get the feeling that the greater conductivity of some chips might be related to the mysterious gray layer spalled oxidized steel layer, depending on where the electrodes are placed.

There's no way to tell for sure, since H&J never give us their test protocols. It's pathological science at its very worst, pathological science with a political agenda. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_science)
 
Millette failed to determine what the composition of those chips were since he never proved the chips he examined met all the stated criteria.
"Absolute rubbish and you know it.

When I take Georgio through the comparison everyone will see that Millette did study the correct chips, namely those that matched chips a-d.

You will disagree no matter what because you lose face and have to back track on everything you've said if you agree.

You can't even agree with everyone else that chips a-d are the same material in Harrit et al!

Are the chips a-d in Harrit et al the same material?

Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question when there is no conjecture or argument over this issue?

Cue a dodgy and mealy mouthed reply."

"mealy mouthed"?

Is baiting and bullying respondents the standard academic approach you learned in school, or is childish incivility what they taught you?

I have repeatedly posted my disagreement about whether or not Millette's a-d chip selections were a match for those highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper.

There are a number of valid reasons why I cannot agree with you on this.

Millette claims that the material he analyzed is primer paint but he could not match his chip selections to any specific primer paint used on the WTC steel.

Dr. Harrit et al tested the electrical resistivity of steel primer paint and highlighted red chip material. They found the red chip material had very low resistance and that steel primer paints had relatively high resistance.

Millette soaked his chip sample in a MEK solution and it behaved in a manner associated with paint (softened).

Dr. Harrit et al soaked their chip in a MEK solution for 55 hours and it did not soften or dissolve.

Millette effectively eliminated Tnemec steel primer paint as a possibility when he could not find a chemical match with any of the 177 listed formulations.

The other candidate primer paint, LeClede he also eliminated from contention which Chris Mohr colourfully attested to. I have additional material arguing against LeClede primer paint but Millette's disagreement with it is sufficient argument for the moment.

Additionally, the steel primer paints used on the WTC steel are basically a ceramic material which is chemically stable up to 800 C.

Dr. Harrit's sample ignited at approximately 430 C.

Millette's TEM analysis showed his sample selections contained titanium and no lead.

Though unpublished, Dr. Harrit et al have TEM analysis that show traces of lead but no titanium.

Since Millette regrettably refused to do 430 C ignition tests, I won't bother introducing that argument.

Millette claims to have found kaolin plates (common to paint) as thin as 6 nm.

Dr. Harrit et al report consistent platelets "approximately 40 nm thick".

Additionally, Dr. Harrit et al discovered that MEK paint solvent induced swelling that segregated the silicon from the aluminum thus establishing that the those two elements were not chemically bound and therefore, the plates were not kaolin.

You (Sunstealer), have made much to-do about Fig.14 in the 2009 Bentham paper, claiming an XEDS spectrum match with Tnemec steel primer paint.

The problem is that you ignore the fact that that particular chip sample had an unwashed and contaminated surface whereas the other XEDS spectrum results were obtained from clean uncontaminated surfaces.

In addition, Tnemec only has aluminum bound to calcium. Tnemec also contains zinc. As observed in the XEDS spectra for cleaned chips, once the surface contamination is removed, the calcium and the zinc no longer appear.

There is more to report about the finding of elemental aluminum but I'll stop here for now.

Millette obviously tested chosen chips which were visually similar and attracted to a magnet but by no means a match for the highlighted chips referred to in the 2009 Bentham paper.

MM
 
I have repeatedly posted my disagreement about whether or not Millette's a-d chip selections were a match for those highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper.

MM

That's not the question you've been asked.

Were chips a-d in the Harrit paper the same material? We agree with the paper, that they are. It's not a trick question. :boggled:
 
I somehow get the feeling that the greater conductivity of some chips might be related to the mysterious gray layer spalled oxidized steel layer, depending on where the electrodes are placed.

There's no way to tell for sure, since H&J never give us their test protocols. It's pathological science at its very worst, pathological science with a political agenda. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_science)

This is the point I made initially on this test. They did not do a measurement system analysis of this conductivity test. We have no idea as to it's accuracy or repeatability. For all we know he measured the wrong layer of the chip, or caught a metal filament. One data point is one data point. It may be at the wrong end of the bell curve. We have no way to know.

It is worthless. To hang your hat on it and cling to it is pure desperation.
 
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That's not the question you've been asked.

Were chips a-d in the Harrit paper the same material? We agree with the paper, that they are. It's not a trick question. :boggled:

If you don't like my answer, maybe it's because your incapable of asking the right question?

MM
 
"mealy mouthed"?

Is baiting and bullying respondents the standard academic approach you learned in school, or is childish incivility what they taught you?

I have repeatedly posted my disagreement about whether or not Millette's a-d chip selections were a match for those highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper.

There are a number of valid reasons why I cannot agree with you on this.

Millette claims that the material he analyzed is primer paint but he could not match his chip selections to any specific primer paint used on the WTC steel.

Dr. Harrit et al tested the electrical resistivity of steel primer paint and highlighted red chip material. They found the red chip material had very low resistance and that steel primer paints had relatively high resistance.

Millette soaked his chip sample in a MEK solution and it behaved in a manner associated with paint (softened).

Dr. Harrit et al soaked their chip in a MEK solution for 55 hours and it did not soften or dissolve.

Millette effectively eliminated Tnemec steel primer paint as a possibility when he could not find a chemical match with any of the 177 listed formulations.

The other candidate primer paint, LeClede he also eliminated from contention which Chris Mohr colourfully attested to. I have additional material arguing against LeClede primer paint but Millette's disagreement with it is sufficient argument for the moment.

Additionally, the steel primer paints used on the WTC steel are basically a ceramic material which is chemically stable up to 800 C.

Dr. Harrit's sample ignited at approximately 430 C.

Millette's TEM analysis showed his sample selections contained titanium and no lead.

Though unpublished, Dr. Harrit et al have TEM analysis that show traces of lead but no titanium.

Since Millette regrettably refused to do 430 C ignition tests, I won't bother introducing that argument.

Millette claims to have found kaolin plates (common to paint) as thin as 6 nm.

Dr. Harrit et al report consistent platelets "approximately 40 nm thick".

Additionally, Dr. Harrit et al discovered that MEK paint solvent induced swelling that segregated the silicon from the aluminum thus establishing that the those two elements were not chemically bound and therefore, the plates were not kaolin.

You (Sunstealer), have made much to-do about Fig.14 in the 2009 Bentham paper, claiming an XEDS spectrum match with Tnemec steel primer paint.

The problem is that you ignore the fact that that particular chip sample had an unwashed and contaminated surface whereas the other XEDS spectrum results were obtained from clean uncontaminated surfaces.

In addition, Tnemec only has aluminum bound to calcium. Tnemec also contains zinc. As observed in the XEDS spectra for cleaned chips, once the surface contamination is removed, the calcium and the zinc no longer appear.

There is more to report about the finding of elemental aluminum but I'll stop here for now.

Millette obviously tested chosen chips which were visually similar and attracted to a magnet but by no means a match for the highlighted chips referred to in the 2009 Bentham paper.

MM

And all of the above amounts to NO evidence of super special Nano-thermite or an inside job ;)
 
And all of the above amounts to NO evidence of super special Nano-thermite or an inside job ;)

It was not meant to.

It was to show that Millette looked at the wrong chips.

The proof of nanothermite is exhibited in the residue of the ignition tests performed on the right chips.

Unfortunately, as we all know Millette studiously avoided that critical test.

MM
 
It's what people only interested in suppressing the truth do.

MM
Is this what YOU'RE doing MM? Suppressing the truth?

Is this why you continually spread your incorrect interpretation regarding Harrit using the resistivity test as a selection process? Even when you've been shown that Harrit's own paper AND his email to me clearly state the opposite of what you think? Why do you you ignore these facts? I'll tell you why you're doing this. It's because it's the only thing you have to discredit Millette's paper, that he tested the wrong chips. Without this "resistivity" argument, Millette followed the exact selection criteria as Harrit did in his paper. The problem is, Millette found red/gray, magnetically attracted paint chips in the dust where Harrit claimed only red/gray, magnetically attracted THERMITIC chips existed.

1. Do you not think it strange that Harrit, being the "detail oriented scientist" that he is, did not analyze ANY paint chips he had separated out in order to get data on them and then publish the results along side his thermitic chip data?​

2. Why did Harrit have to use tabulated resistivity data for paint coatings from a book? He could have easily used the resistivity test data from the tests you claim he used to separate out the red/gray paint chips from the red/gray thermitic chips.​

3. Why did Harrit, in an email to me, tell me that RANDOM resistivity tests were done AFTER the red/gray chips were isolated as described and that the resistivity data was supplemental material?​

4. If each and every test performed in the paper was needed to prove that the red gray chips were thermtic, then why were some tests done on some chips and not others? Why wasn't every test done on EVERY chip? Why were the Delassio/Breidenbach chip samples not DSC tested?​

5. Why didn't Harrit use the red/gray paint chips he separated out for his MEK tests? Why did he use OTHER paint chip samples?​

6. In Harrit's paper, "WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT", why did he use NIST's published composition of primer paint instead of analyzing, testing, and publishing the results of paint chips he supposedly already separated out? He had them right there in his hand according to you!!!!​

7. Why in a video presentation did Harrit tell his audience to take the dust filled bag, drag a magnet over the bag, and look at the red/gray chips attracted to the magnet? He made no mention of a resistivity test.​

The answer to all these questions is simple. Harrit and his group went into these tests with the assumption that ALL the red/gray chips collected with a magnet were thermitic and nothing else. He performed tests on random and applied those results to ALL the red/gray chips because of this. Harrit's paper says EVERY red/gray, magnetically attracted chip taken from the dust samples were thermitic. After the paper was published, Jones and others opened their pie-holes and say that there were different kinds of red/gray chips. Millette, at the very least, proves there were other red/gray chips, agreeing with Jones' statement. This makes Harrit's paper worthless.
 
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Unfortunately, as we all know Millette studiously avoided that critical test.

MM
You said the resistivity test was what they used to "easily" separate out the red/gray paint chips from the red/gray thermitic chips?

Why didn't Harrit do a DSC test on the similar, red/gray paint chips he supposedly separated out? It was "critical" wasn't it?
 
It was not meant to.

It was to show that Millette looked at the wrong chips.

The proof of nanothermite is exhibited in the residue of the ignition tests performed on the right chips.

Unfortunately, as we all know Millette studiously avoided that critical test.

MM

Ok, can you explain how the red paint chips were attracted to the magent ?

As for proof of nanothermite exhibited in the residue of the ignition test ? I assume you are talking about the iron rich microspheres from the rust :D
 
It's what people only interested in suppressing the truth do.

"Is this what YOU'RE doing MM? Suppressing the truth?"

If I am, it is purely unintentional.

"Why do you you ignore these facts?

I'll tell you why you're doing this.

It's because it's the only thing you have to discredit Millette's paper, that he tested the wrong chips."

If that is what you choose to believe Gamolon, than you are guilty of posting without reading or fact checking.

Step back a few posts and you can read a significant list of facts supporting my claim that Millette "tested the wrong chips".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9820188&postcount=3929

MM
 
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