Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Now you enter your usual pathetic, insulting lying mode. You fall back into it. Even when you face the obvious of written text, you can't help spouting the false. What you say it's false. Dut you defy the obvious.
I told the truth, and above all, I told exactly the same thing that Mignini said.
Amanda Knox decided to release a statement.
It's not difficult to understand the meaning of this phrase. But apparently you fail.

PS. A dead person cannot be robbed because the law says this, not because I think. But in addition to this - and I remark the concept in addition - there is also another fact, that is, that the phones were tossed away thus the indication that the purpose of the person who took the phones was a staging, that is the intent of the thief vas just the removal of the phones and not the keeping of the phones.

Machiavelli, because a murderer took the phones and then walking away some distance and then decided to throw them awa does not mean that he took them for staging. If he was a burglar to begin with, his purpose initially was to take items of value that could be easily sold for fast cash. That could be the rational for initially taking the phones but wisdom prevailed that they tie him to the most serious crime. He may not have taken them for staging; in fact, he may not have known there was a staging.

You only believe there was a staqing because the police immediately jumped to that conslusion and as a reult did not do any serious investigation of the entry as possibly authentic. They then developed a most elaborate theory and interpretation of selectively-collected and selectively-analyzed evidence to support their theory that it was a three-some and not a lone burglar.
 
And now that I've checked to out, I will revert my claim and admit that the cottage is not shadowed by the nearby hill from that WIND tower. Attachment to follow... Highlights are locations of cottage and Launa's garden.

Excellent Dan, What impresses me the most is that unlike some people I know...Mignini, Giobbi Ganong, et al., you can admit a mistake and it's not the end of the world. BTW. I made the same one...but that was 6 months ago when I was first looking at this.

The issue with the LANA's garden is that is only where the phones "ended up" not necessarily where they were at 10:13. I've always thought that maybe Rudy ran down through the valley after killing Meredith and then made his way up past Lanas garden. There is an entrance to the wall of the city very close to Lana's garden.

That would allow Rudy to approach his own apartment from the opposite direction. There are valleys that can effect lines of sight to any of the cell antennas. Also if you are close to the base of the walls of the city, you probably don't have a good line of sight to the Lupatelli or the Acquedetto antennas.
 
That is true, but there are 700,000 people lining 4th Avenue in Seattle today. That's actually more than live within the entire city limits.

Off topic, I know...but I've been waiting for this for 39 years.

Congrats to Seattle and to you AC
 
Damn, she was Beautiful

Actually the testimony of Stefano Bonassi (the guy living downstairs) reports that as the two guys were walking in the center, they run into three people who were already together, the theree people were Amanda, Meredith and Guede. The two girls had met Guede while they were walking home.

Then he points out that Knox and Guede already knew each other (Guede even told his friends he liked Amanda):

Giorgio Cocciaretto said he met Guede there at the downstairs apartment two or three times, and that evening Guede was talking with both Amanda and Meredith "molto tranquillamente" (very openly, very at ease):

All witnesses recall that Guede said he liked Amanda, only talked with his friends about Amanda, not about Meredith.


The guys downstairs weren't his friends. They didn't even know his name.


They hung out drinking together, let's say he talked to his acquaintances.


You know something Machiavelli?
Rudy Guede tells it differently, right after Meredith's horrible murder, not years later in court.
Let's read what Rudy writes in his own handwriting that he 1st met Amanda Knox at Le Chic,
barely knew the Italian boyz downstairs, and what he thinks about Amanda and Meredith:

From Guede's Prison Diary:
"It was inside the club where I met Amanda. I
remember very well that she approached me with a
smile stamped on her face. That evening I was by
myself. I began to talk with her “How are you… Where
are you from,” until she told me she was from Seattle. I
was happy because a few days before that, a guy with
whom I’d become very close, who was from Seattle,
had left Italy. I told myself, who knows, perhaps she
knows him? And then I told her I had a friend from
Seattle who studies at UW, that is, University of
Washington, whose name is Victor. At once she said
yes, then asked if he was Chinese. I said no, Victor is
part Russian, and I realized we were speaking about
two different people. But there and then, between one
thing and the other, we began to talk. I asked her if
they played Hip Hop or R&B in the club, because that
evening they were doing Latin American type of Music,
which I don’t care for much. And she said that here
they play Salsa and African Music. That evening I
drank sangria, and it was Patrick, I remember, who
served it. I even remember the price, 2 Euros. Then I
left the club and went to meet the guys I would often go
out with.

It was the first time that I met Amanda and after that, I
ran into her many times, but it was always “hi” and
“bye” each going our own way. I didn’t strike up a
relationship (with her).
I already had my group of
friends with whom I went out. There wasn’t any
Reason that I’d get attached to her."


"Also, one evening that was Owen’s birthday, if I’m not
mistaken. Me, Alex, Philip, MJ, Owen, Ben, Mike, and
other guys went to celebrate. I remember Well that
evening, because Owen got Drunk and I took him to
sleep at Alex’s house. Then we went out again until at
the end of the night, in front of the “Shamrock,” we met
the two Italian guys with whom I often played
Basketball on the small court of Piazza Grimana. It
was these guys, with their friends, who approached
me. That night I was a bit high/tipsy, but conscious
and talking. By then it was time to return home, but
talking with these guys, I lost sight of my usual friends
and stayed with them.

That is to say, I knew them and I decided to stay with
them. At that point, a girl approached us and started to
chat us up. I asked where she was from, where she
came from, etc, etc. She told me her name was
Amanda, and she was from Seattle. Then and there I
hadn’t recognized her and I told her that I’d met a girl
from Seattle, around before. And she said that she
was that girl, at which point, I made the connection of
having already seen her. Then we talked, I, the guys,
Amanda, while we were going home. Having arrived
near Piazza Grimana, I said bye to the guys, but they
convinced me to come with them to their house. It
didn’t take much to convince me."

"I went to the home of these guys for the first time, even
though it had been four months since I first spotted
them playing basketball together. It was that evening
that they gave me the nickname "Baron Davis." In the
meantime, Amanda went to her house. The guys living
downstairs entered their house. We all began to
critique Amanda, some more, some less, in the sense
that she was a pretty girl. Some imagined doing it with
her, etc., etc… Stuff that all guys do, some more, some
less. That evening, I don’t remember exactly what I
said about her, but to go to bed with her, yes, because
all of us guys ended up with that as the goal. Then
one of the guys (I don’t remember their names well)
began to prepare a joint and I asked if I had to pay, and
they said “Of course not.” We began to smoke in the
house. ”Smoking,” I put that in quotes. We imagined
ourselves, each one of us, with Amanda in bed. We
were guys at home, what were we supposed to be
thinking, if not this? Then I heard a knock at the door
and who was it?" Amanda. We all looked at each other
and laughed.
<snip>

"Later I heard knocking at the
door. I opened it, and a girl came in. It was Meredith.

She came in, she looked at me, and I looked at her.
Damn, she was Beautiful."

In one glance, I recognized
that she had to be the English girl, in light of her Italian.
In fact the first thing I told her was “You don’t seem to
have anything English about you,” speaking in English.
And in fact, if I remember, she told me her mother was
Indian, or something of the kind from those places. I
looked at the two girls and saw that she was very
pretty, but that was the end of it.
There, for the first time, I met Meredith. Maybe I had
already encountered her in other places, but I had
never noticed. That night, we spoke at length, you
could say, all night. We spoke of everything and more,
until when tired, it was thought to go to sleep. The two
girls went to their place, and we guys were left “high
and dry,” as they say."

Guede writes more about Meredith:
"the day of the England-South Africa final arrived,
where I saw Meredith anew. For the entire duration of
the match I happened to turn around often to look at
her, because she was Very Beautiful."
 
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What probably happened is Rudy broke the window and then saw Meredith approaching and approached her instead and he asked Meredith about Amanda and Meredith annoyed told Rudy that he didn't stand a chance and Rudy got angry and killed Meredith.

I mean if they the prosecution can pull theories without evidence out of their backsides, so can I. Sorry if it smells like Crini's poop.

How much Italian did Meredith speak? How long had she studied Italian in the UK? Was she pretty fluent in another Romance language such as Spanish or French, which would be an advantage in learning Italian?

I read here that Amanda had had one semester of Italian before going to Italy. She was very proficient in German, but it is very different from Italian and I do not see it giving a fast advantage in learning Italian.
 
Mignini could have charged Rudy with theft of the phones and also since Rudy pressed the buttons to display and initial dialing to Meredith's bank Mignini could have charged Rudy with that act of trying to electronically access her financial info. I don't now if Mignini could have won conviction of Rudy, seeing as Perugia judges don't defer much to Mignini - its not like Mignini has pals on the court who will stretch their findings to help him :p - but Mignini could have tried to make the 2 different phone charges stick.

But Rudy already got the maximum sentence as Mach so eloquently informed us.
 
Excellent Dan, What impresses me the most is that unlike some people I know...Mignini, Giobbi Ganong, et al., you can admit a mistake and it's not the end of the world. BTW. I made the same one...but that was 6 months ago when I was first looking at this.

The issue with the LANA's garden is that is only where the phones "ended up" not necessarily where they were at 10:13. I've always thought that maybe Rudy ran down through the valley after killing Meredith and then made his way up past Lanas garden. There is an entrance to the wall of the city very close to Lana's garden.

That would allow Rudy to approach his own apartment from the opposite direction. There are valleys that can effect lines of sight to any of the cell antennas. Also if you are close to the base of the walls of the city, you probably don't have a good line of sight to the Lupatelli or the Acquedetto antennas.

A path in the park does lead to a side gate through the city wall close to Rudy's apartment. If the gate was locked as it normally is at night, the path continues and meets a road. Across the road from this point is the garden where the phones were found. Keep following the path and it leads to a gate in the wall that is always open.
 
The passage of this case isn’t about the Italian people or government, I do not believe the Italian justice system or at least their Supreme Court justices show any signs of great concern with this particular case, let’s not forget they ignored the American and their government of the day over the CIA extraordinary rendition case and that had far reaching implications than this case. This is why I remarked on any similar cases in Italy because that is really the only context that matters, comparing this case to any of the ones mentioned that have happened in other countries for me is like comparing apples with oranges.

In the years to come we will see what happens at the ECHR, but again I wonder how many Italian murder cases have been overturned on the grounds being raised here, I don’t know, do you?

I believe the American government of the day will make a political decisions with regards to Amanda’s extradition and Raffaele will continue to be the forgotten man.

No, I think the Italian eyes will peek open when they toss RS butt in jail and meanwhile Knox remains free as a bird while ECOHR (she already has a case there against the Lumumba thing) tries to sort out this mess.

I think people discount that a case for Knox or an appeal against extradition because of human rights violation or even a complete lack of evidence can and must be considered. No one including the State Department or any President (it will never get that high) would ever rubber stamp this political hot potato. Especially in light of one solid appeal case that found them both completely innocent.

So that means that someone is going to take a close look at just how the ISC overturned that ruling and sent the case back for retrial. And this is when BS meters and flashing red lights will be going off everywhere.

The ISC reasoning much like Massei speaks for itself. Illogical, illegal, overreaching... not even close to their mandate. They used Guedes case as reasoning in RS/AK case for goodness sake. This one thing is enough to paint a clear picture of what is going on here. This will require the Italians to start explaining some things and I guarantee that those charged to understand this will not be swayed by Yummi/Mach style of nonsense argument.

True that so many eyes have reviewed this case that it is a mountain of BS to overcome. Even I who watched it all quite closely and after 6 years want to toss up my hands in frustration and say sure...who can argue against the idea that so many liars could come together and sustain this decision if it were not true....if it was actually a result of corrupt and fake then how can so many people be so convinced or corrupt?

Sorry, but dim witted liars is all I can come up with. Something systemic in the society? And if this case can not get in front of an honest court in an unbiased place where they understand the Italian propensity to abuse human rights shamelessly trapped inside their system and how corrupt it actually is then we must believe that Italy will get away with this farce. So far they are getting away pretty cleanly.

Let them toss the Italian boy into jail. Can they sleep with that? I'm betting yes...well everyone except for Nara...she will still be up every two hours certainly.
 
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I am confused. I see the post, below, which leads with my name. I don't remember writing this post. In fact, I don't even remember meeting Rudy, Meredith, or Amanda. Is that my DNA on the bra clasp, too, along with Profazio's? :p
Strozzi

Originally Posted by Strozzi

Actually the testimony of Stefano Bonassi (the guy living downstairs) reports that as the two guys were walking in the center, they run into three people who were already together, the theree people were Amanda, Meredith and Guede. The two girls had met Guede while they were walking home.

Then he points out that Knox and Guede already knew each other (Guede even told his friends he liked Amanda):

Giorgio Cocciaretto said he met Guede there at the downstairs apartment two or three times, and that evening Guede was talking with both Amanda and Meredith "molto tranquillamente" (very openly, very at ease):

All witnesses recall that Guede said he liked Amanda, only talked with his friends about Amanda, not about Meredith.

Originally Posted by MichaelB
The guys downstairs weren't his friends. They didn't even know his name.

Originally Posted by Machiavelli
They hung out drinking together, let's say he talked to his acquaintances.

You know something Machiavelli?
Rudy Guede tells it differently, right after Meredith's horrible murder, not years later in court.
Let's read what Rudy writes in his own handwriting:

From Guede's Prison Diary:
"I went to the home of these guys for the first time, even
though it had been four months since I first spotted
them playing basketball together. It was that evening
that they gave me the nickname "Baron Davis." In the
meantime, Amanda went to her house. The guys living
downstairs entered their house. We all began to
critique Amanda, some more, some less, in the sense
that she was a pretty girl. Some imagined doing it with
her, etc., etc… Stuff that all guys do, some more, some
less. That evening, I don’t remember exactly what I
said about her, but to go to bed with her, yes, because
all of us guys ended up with that as the goal. Then
one of the guys (I don’t remember their names well)
began to prepare a joint and I asked if I had to pay, and
they said “Of course not.” We began to smoke in the
house. ”Smoking,” I put that in quotes. We imagined
ourselves, each one of us, with Amanda in bed. We
were guys at home, what were we supposed to be
thinking, if not this? Then I heard a knock at the door
and who was it?" Amanda. We all looked at each other
and laughed.
<snip>
"Later I heard knocking at the
door. I opened it, and a girl came in. It was Meredith.
She came in, she looked at me, and I looked at her.
Damn, she was Beautiful."

Guede writes more about Meredith:
"the day of the England-South Africa final arrived,
where I saw Meredith anew. For the entire duration of
the match I happened to turn around often to look at
her, because she was Very Beautiful."
 
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Hey Machiavelli,
By any chance do you know why Patrick Lumumba, a local business man,
did not have a lawyer present during his original interrogation, after his arrest by for murder by Perugia police during the investigation into Meredith Kercher's death?
 
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The issue with the LANA's garden is that is only where the phones "ended up" not necessarily where they were at 10:13. I've always thought that maybe Rudy ran down through the valley after killing Meredith and then made his way up past Lanas garden. There is an entrance to the wall of the city very close to Lana's garden.

If you escape through the valley, you come up across from the road that enters the park. Follow this road to a path that leads to the pedestrian gate in the wall very near to Rudy's place. Here on this path Rudy would find himself alone and secluded. This is his chance to stop and ponder what had just happened. Here he would think that maybe he should turn off those phones he stole from Meredith so they couldn't be used to track him. The Italian phone is evidently familiar and he has no difficulty turning to off. But the English phone gives him trouble initiation two calls before he gives up.

Rudy heads for the gate to get home. Problem is that this gate is locked at night. Rudy would arrive at the gate and have to continue around to the next entrance. That path swings away from the city wall and meets the road directly opposite Lana's garden.

At 22:13, the time of the incoming MMS, the phone is in a location where the nearby cell tower is unreachable forcing the phone to connect to the distant wind cell. The path adjacent to the city wall near the pedestrian gate would be such a place. At 22:15 or thereabouts, Rudy would be near the road across from Lana's. Lana had called the police sometime around 22:00. At this juncture Rudy is carrying hot phones that won't turn off, vehicles are approaching very likely with flashing lights. Rudy would ditch the phones in what appears to be a ravine and run the other way.

[It would be nice to have the dispatch logs for the bomb threat response so as not to have to guess at these times. But this is Perugia so the hard drives were probably stored in a wet plastic bag with an electric eel.]
 
Mignini doesn't have any driver. He goes walks to work every morning. But at 2am the police sent a car to pick him up - right because it was 2am, it was urgent and because the Questura is not behind the corner and not the usual place for him to go.

You missed this one...they were aware that Guede was still on the loose and that Mignini was in danger until they could get him or was that Lumumba they needed to get ?

True that Ak/RS had a defense team... but given that a case was not brought for almost a year (this is why it is a human right violation for failing to provide a speedy trial BTW) it was impossible for them to even understand that they may need CCTV from the questura. CCTV likely overwritten in a loop or a loop of corruption at least. How about police reports? This driver must have notes that the defense could see when they present this farce to the ECOHR no?

Perhaps too specific anyway. There are enough other clear and gross human rights violations by the Italian judiciary to prove it was impossible for RS/AK to ever get a fair trial. And yes they did have an incompetent defense. They have started yelling lately (too late now boneheads)...except for DOVODA who still doesn't get it or else does not care.

I have never seen such ball less (metaphor Mary) defenders in the last 6 years. Sara Gino and DO Ba Da assistant (I forget her name at the moment) showed the most balls in the case in all 6 years. The rest acted like crippled mute idiots! Who the hell loses a case like this? First year law students could have done better...certainly.

The legal system and actors in this case has so far baffled the world with BS rather than dazzling anyone with brilliance.

Who are the politicians mumbling about a biased judge I am starting to hear about? Anyone we know?
 
It is a matter of fact that Knox and Sollecito were charged with illicit appropriation of the phones, not with theft.
In Italian jurisprudence theft is a charge that requires a formal complaint by a victim in order to be prosecuted, and it a crime is focused on the element of victim's will, and the will of the perpetrator to permanently prevent the victim from taking possession of the item (there must be a possessor who claims he had the possession of the item).

So if Knox and Sollecito were charged with illicit appropriation of the phones, they must have gotten their prints off the phones correct? Otherwise, on what basis were they charged for this?
 
No, I did not make the point that the keeping constitutes theft and not the removal; I said a theft requires a victim to be alive (and, if theft is committed as a crime alone, requires to file a complaint to be prosecuted); and also I pointed out that the removal was not aimed at keeping the phones, the meaning of this detail having implications on the motive: in terms of motive, this does not appear as a theft but as a staging. because there is no evidence the perpetrator aimed to keep the phones (they threw them away immediately). Therefore, those who are more suspected of taking the phones, must be those who did a staging. It's logical to assume those who took the phones and those who altered the murder scene are the same people, rather than suspect Rudy Guede (who left the house before the staging).



It's still not enought for the element of theft. It makes actually no difference whether if it's theft of illicit appropriation, but I thought this specific deed happened to be illicit appropriation and not theft. But then, as I read again Massei I found in fact that Massei charged them with art. 624, that is theft, thus assumed Meredith was still alive.
It seems Massei did not find cash and credit cards were missing.


This is something that seems a rather easy piece of evidence to determine or refute. That you or Massei do not find it is meaningless since logic seems AWOL with you two in argument.

But MK finances certainly have a trail either digital and or paper about her exact financial picture and the evidence also must be available from bank records about her credit cards. How many, from whom? Are you telling us that Massei concluded MK credit cards were accounted for? Certainly you have cites for this.

I understand RG DNA was found on the zipper of MK purse...a place where women often keep valuables like money or credit cards...or even cell phones. Anyone elses DNA on this purse?

What evidence proved RS/AK took MK phones? Anything besides wild unsubstantiated assertions? There must be something...right? What?
 
A path in the park does lead to a side gate through the city wall close to Rudy's apartment. If the gate was locked as it normally is at night, the path continues and meets a road. Across the road from this point is the garden where the phones were found. Keep following the path and it leads to a gate in the wall that is always open.


Aack! Ninja'd

But I've got the pictures :)

Attachments: back trail form cottage (showing dirt road coming up from ravine and joining road just past entrance to park) and secluded path by wall hidden from local cell towers [note: inside Perugia the cell towers are required to blend in with the city architecture so they look like regular towers. Up close you can see the cell antennas inside]
 

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This is something that seems a rather easy piece of evidence to determine or refute. That you or Massei do not find it is meaningless since logic seems AWOL with you two in argument.

But MK finances certainly have a trail either digital and or paper about her exact financial picture and the evidence also must be available from bank records about her credit cards. How many, from whom? Are you telling us that Massei concluded MK credit cards were accounted for? Certainly you have cites for this.

I understand RG DNA was found on the zipper of MK purse...a place where women often keep valuables like money or credit cards...or even cell phones. Anyone elses DNA on this purse?

What evidence proved RS/AK took MK phones? Anything besides wild unsubstantiated assertions? There must be something...right? What?

I'm convinced that Rudy stole Meredith's cash because he blamed it on Amanda. Most of Rudy's explanations are all self serving attempts to explain any evidence that might tie him to Meredith's murder. He gives the time of death, he talks about Meredith's money, he says he "fingers" Meredith, he explains the towels.

I'm of the belief that Rudy does what most liars do, they use lies to explain what they think are the facts.
 
This is something that seems a rather easy piece of evidence to determine or refute. That you or Massei do not find it is meaningless since logic seems AWOL with you two in argument.

But MK finances certainly have a trail either digital and or paper about her exact financial picture and the evidence also must be available from bank records about her credit cards. How many, from whom? Are you telling us that Massei concluded MK credit cards were accounted for? Certainly you have cites for this.

I understand RG DNA was found on the zipper of MK purse...a place where women often keep valuables like money or credit cards...or even cell phones. Anyone elses DNA on this purse?

What evidence proved RS/AK took MK phones? Anything besides wild unsubstantiated assertions? There must be something...right? What?

I'm convinced that Rudy stole Meredith's cash because he blamed it on Amanda. Most of Rudy's explanations are all self serving attempts to explain any evidence that might tie him to Meredith's murder. He gives the time of death, he talks about Meredith's money, he says he "fingers" Meredith, he explains the towels.

I'm of the belief that Rudy does what most liars do, they weave their lies into the facts and to explain the facts.
 
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