Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Huh? What article are you talking about?
"[Knox] pointed the finger at an entirely innocent man. But for the grace of a solid alibi, Patrick Lumumba would now be serving a life sentence. No PR offensive can quite sugar coat that one."

When I read what Ms. Knox is suppose to have said/ wrote, sounds more like she was lead to blaming him.

Look, you have to expect this from religious conservatives anyway. It is about slut shaming. She was a slut, therefore she was a murderer.

I don't care if she was sexual active or not, it is her body, just what I think goes on in their minds.
 
Normally someone like Skeptical Bystander would not align herself with the vocal haters who are out there now.

Come on, she loves herself an Ann Coulter.

It is funny to think that she drove by Amanda's mom's place and noted that they could be cash strapped because they had some new landscaping.

Bet she didn't take her ex-pat (don't tell her she's just a plain US citizen) rear end to any stinking parade :p
 
When I read what Ms. Knox is suppose to have said/ wrote, sounds more like she was lead to blaming him.

Look, you have to expect this from religious conservatives anyway. It is about slut shaming. She was a slut, therefore she was a murderer.

I don't care if she was sexual active or not, it is her body, just what I think goes on in their minds.

Hey, I've always liked sluts....I've never seen it to be shameful. And if it wasn't for sluts, I probably would never have got any.

Just because they'll put out doesn't mean that they are evil. It means that they are friendly.
 
Abrams and where Amanda was when she called Filomena

Abrams wrote, "At 12:08 p.m. Knox called her roommate Filomena Romanelli and apparently said that she was at their house but cell phone records seem to show she was likely still at Sollecito's home.” He also wrote, “So if she had not been back at her house yet, as cell phone records seem to show, and was still at Sollecito's, would she have known about a break-in?” (highlighting mine)

If I am reading this passage correctly, Abrams seems to be saying that Amanda did not return to her flat until after her call to Filomena and that she did so in Raffaele's company. I have three questions. One, is it undisputed that the call to Filomena took place at Raffaele's? Two, did Amanda in fact say anything to indicate where she was? Three, is there any electronic evidence that Amanda made the first trip? I suspect that the answer to 1 is yes and that the answer to 3 is no. With respect to 2, I just reread Amanda's email and she indicates that she was at Raffaele's flat when she made that call. Therefore, the only ways she could have indicated that she was not at Raffaele's when she made the call would be by something she said to Filomena contemporaneously, or if she said something at her trial. I suspect that Abrams is simply wrong in his assertion, but I have no idea how he got there.
 
I know, I was there without my nephews alone..which made it sort of weird. I was North of the Warwick, about halfway to the center from there. I watched for a while but honestly I'm not that big of fan of the crowds and my nephews weren't with me...so I bugged out just after Marshawn and Carrol passed by. I couldn't see much anyway. Just the backs of lots of people. Sounds like you had a great spot to watch the parade.

Yes it was as good as it gets. We were on top of a little tower on the top floor in the sunshine. It wasn't even that cold.

I agree that Obama might not really care about the public perception, but that doesn't mean he'll care about the Italians either Grinder. The Italians might complain, but they are not likely to do a damn thing about it.

I have no idea what Obama might do. And while I don't think this follows the normal left right Democrat, Republican ideological split, but what if it is up to the next President?

That would be horrible and ridiculous. At what point does someone in a position of power stand up and say, "Enough is enough!" and put an end to this farce? It would be terrible for her to serve even one day in a US prison for a crime she didn't commit.

It was just a prediction, relax. Presidents send people off on missions that really don't matter that much and people die. If the Italians ask and they have all their paperwork in order, which they will, then it just isn't that big of a deal for the country to give her over whereas we might just want something from Italy in the future.

Perhaps they can talk the Italians into not asking for some favor but I think people here over estimate the response of the US people if she were sent back.
 
That's the way I have perceived the media coverage, too. Sergei.

Regarding the left vs. the right, we need to keep in mind what Charlie wrote: "Think Leonid Brezhnev instead of Pete Seeger."

This case seems to have something for everyone, and I don't think it falls neatly into political camps. Among the supporters there are both conservatives and liberals. The same with the PGP, I assume. Normally someone like Skeptical Bystander would not align herself with the vocal haters who are out there now.

Good point Mary_H. There is no need to introduce political leanings, IMO. Neither liberalism nor conservatism is a qualification for having a particular opinion about this case. They are completely unrelated as far as I am concerned.
 
I don't understand why the defense did not hammer that Guede is responsible.

Why not hammer that his previous crimes, which did not include murder, I believe were all him alone.

As well, the only cases I can think of where a couple was responsible for rapes and murders were teenage spree killers. The ages are close to the right age but usually they are misfits and some kind of rejection occurred which spurred it.

Even without the crime scene clean up, has there ever been a confirmed case of anything like this?
Edit: As well, single stalker rapes / murders seeem to generally be the norm.
 
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Yes it was as good as it gets. We were on top of a little tower on the top floor in the sunshine. It wasn't even that cold.
Now you are lying. I freezed my %#^s off!!! That's a big reason I left. If it had been warmer, I would have probably hung around longer.

It was just a prediction, relax. Presidents send people off on missions that really don't matter that much and people die. If the Italians ask and they have all their paperwork in order, which they will, then it just isn't that big of a deal for the country to give her over whereas we might just want something from Italy in the future.

Perhaps they can talk the Italians into not asking for some favor but I think people here over estimate the response of the US people if she were sent back.

I respectfully disagree. The British nanny doesn't compare. First off, she wasn't an American citizen. That alone makes this a different game.

Then there is the fact that she is a woman and a pretty young one at that. And then there is the significant discussion that as 20/20 and Dateline put it. "That this was the railroad job from hell". If the American public perceives it as a gross miscarriage of justice, Amanda is going nowhere. If they believe that Amanda got a fair trial and she's just whining about the outcome she's toast.

BTW, it was also LOI day. So I was keeping an eye on that too.
 
Abrams wrote, "At 12:08 p.m. Knox called her roommate Filomena Romanelli and apparently said that she was at their house but cell phone records seem to show she was likely still at Sollecito's home.” He also wrote, “So if she had not been back at her house yet, as cell phone records seem to show, and was still at Sollecito's, would she have known about a break-in?” (highlighting mine)

If I am reading this passage correctly, Abrams seems to be saying that Amanda did not return to her flat until after her call to Filomena and that she did so in Raffaele's company. I have three questions. One, is it undisputed that the call to Filomena took place at Raffaele's? Two, did Amanda in fact say anything to indicate where she was? Three, is there any electronic evidence that Amanda made the first trip? I suspect that the answer to 1 is yes and that the answer to 3 is no. With respect to 2, I just reread Amanda's email and she indicates that she was at Raffaele's flat when she made that call. Therefore, the only ways she could have indicated that she was not at Raffaele's when she made the call would be by something she said to Filomena contemporaneously, or if she said something at her trial. I suspect that Abrams is simply wrong in his assertion, but I have no idea how he got there.

I don't have Amanda's book at hand but she probably wrote something about this in there. Aside from the electronic evidence, the problem with the whole interval before the body was discovered is that a lot of people come at it with the unfounded, irrational bias that between Filomena and Amanda, Filomena is the more credible.
 
Missed the cold-but-thrilling opportunity to stand with 700,000 people today, but I did see the game on Sunday, mostly laughing with delight, as I'm sure the Knox/Pellas families were. My spouse spends his days high up in the convention center tower; the photo he texted me about noon showed sidewalks lined 20 deep as far as you could see.

My brother-in-law was John Carlson's roommate at the UW for a year . . . Carlson is not your garden-variety tea party conservative, from what I understand, but I try not to pay attention to that side of the political spectrum because I find them too, um, what is the technical term?

Ridiculous.

His radio station also broadcasts:

* Glenn Beck ("When I see a 9/11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh shut up' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining." –"The Glenn Beck Program," Sept. 9, 2005),

Sean Hannity ("Halloween is a liberal holiday because we're teaching our children to beg for something for free. … We're teaching kids to knock on other people's doors and ask for a handout." —Fox News host Sean Hannity October 31, 2007)

and Michael Savage ("I'll tell you what autism is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream and they're silent? They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz. Straighten up. Act like a man. Don't sit there crying and screaming, idiot.' " July 17th 2010)

So, when people say that John Carlson is in the business of creating conflict to attract listeners, believe them. His comments on the Knox case apparently did the job he's getting paid to do, which is attract excited listeners:

After laying out his conclusions about Amanda Knox’s level of complicity in the stabbing death of former roommate in Italy, Meredith Kercher, and Knox’s 2nd conviction in the murder, John Carlson is besieged by callers defending Knox. They tell Carlson’s he’s completely wrong.

That's what he wanted. He's just another guy eager to make his living off the back of an innocent woman. What's the word for that again?

Source
 
I don't understand why the defense did not hammer that Guede is responsible.

Why not hammer that his previous crimes, which did not include murder, I believe were all him alone.

Their hands may have been tied. They have to tread carefully to avoid criticizing Perugian law enforcement for not arresting Guede previously. There also may be Rudy's adoptive family to worry about, as they are very wealthy and no doubt have powerful connections.

As well, the only cases I can think of where a couple was responsible for rapes and murders were teenage spree killers. The ages are close to the right age but usually they are misfits and some kind of rejection occurred which spurred it.

Even without the crime scene clean up, has there ever been a confirmed case of anything like this?
Edit: As well, single stalker rapes / murders seeem to generally be the norm.

Much of the criminology literature seems to suggest that serious crimes are a long time in the making, that is, there would have been some precedents in Amanda and Raffaele's lives to enable them to do this. Rudy's escalating crime spree in the weeks before the murder fits the pattern much better.
 
Like you, due to your theatrical experiences, I too can spot a lie at 100 paces. In my case it must be the practise of law or something. Who the hell (apart from a liar) buttresses a claim like this with a reference to the fact that they must have slept longer than half an hour because they were in REM sleep? Did Mignini attend the Nara school of embroidery or what?

I didn't use the word "because", neither Mignini did. I report elements of the vivid description that Mignini gave me.
PS: I cannot spot a lie at 100 paces. It may be impossible to spot a lie, when it's possible its because you can spot the lie because of its lack of congruence.

I conclude Mignini, his driver (who knows which side his bread is buttered) and Giobbi (whose testimony I will now check) might all be lying.

Might be? Good luck with proving that. Or with presenting a plausible conspiracy theory.
I wonder on what basis you reach you "conclusion".

I will also check this with Follain (trust me) who will very likely have got his facts from Mignini before Mig knew what turned on it.

Currently Mignini does not know what "turned on it". He does not follow English forums as far as I know. He has no idea about the existence of the speculations on your side. Nothing on the topic has been ever said in the courtroom so this is a non-issue in the trial (the argument does not belong to the trial, no defence ever brought arguments about that. No defence lawyer ever suggested Mignini was present at Knox's interrogation). Actually Mignini did not even know the existence of PMF, at least until few months ago.

Is there CCTV covering the entry to the cop shop?

At the front entrance there were CCTVs, but the police cars would enter through a rear entry, I don't know if there was CCTV.

If so, I recommend you have a word with your people and suggest they 'lose' the film for that night, assuming they have not already done so.

I seriously doubt there could still be a video in 2014. But there was a defence team on this case.
 
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What is amazing is that people seem to be allowed to make up facts as they go along. It's been six years and guiilters/haters.convicters keep changing things....

Reports sat that now Quintavalle is saying he also saw Rudy and Raffaele. If this is his story, he should be charged with perjury for what he told the Massei court in 2009.

Also, it's reported that Nencini will, in fact, invent yet another motive for this crime. It is called, "Boy's night out". We'll have to wait for Nencini's motivations report for the specifics, but why is it that someone can be convicted and in jail for 90 days before anyone lets them in on the specifics of the crime they've supposedly committed.

Oh yes, Pacelli, Lumumba's lawyer, said after the re-conviction that Amanda was muddy on the outside and dark on the inside. Why are lawyers allowed to get away with that kind of stuff? Gossip columnists maybe, but lawyers?
 
Currently Mignini does not know what "turned on it". He does not follow English forums as far as I know. He has no idea about the existence of the speculations on your side. Nothing on the topic has been ever said in the courtroom so this is a non-issue in the trial (the argument does not belong to the trial, no defence ever brought arguments about that. No defence lawyer ever suggested Mignini was present at Knox's interrogation). Actually Mignini did not even know the existence of PMF, at least until few months ago.

Does Mignini know that you lied about him and his role at interrogation? That Knox never said she wanted to release a statement that he facilitated?

Does Mignini know that you think that a dead person cannot be robbed?
 
I had hoped to find an organized response to the Abrams' piece. I disagree that it is a healthy exercise in skeptical inquiry. Skeptical inquiry does not involve putting forth unlikely theories and then supporting the theories with a misleading description of the evidence.

A long time friend of mine wrote me and linked to the article. I wanted to just send him a link to a response so he could decide how interested he was and how much he wanted to read. I didn't find that response, so I wrote him a fairly long response that very well might have exceeded his interest level. This is what I wrote him:

[Critiques, corrections and references will be appreciated]

Hi ,

On the story you linked to:

I was hoping to find an organized rebuttal. The article is horribly misleading while perhaps just treading inside the line of absolute false hood.

A small example, The shop owner that testified that he had seen them the day following the murder:
This was part of the police claim that Knox and Sollecito had used bleach to clean up the apartment and that they had bought bleach from this guy. Except: There is no evidence of crime scene clean up with or without bleach and especially a crime scene clean up by Knox and Sollecito. The man that allegedly saw them couldn't produce a receipt for their purchases, his employees denied that they were in the shop, it is unlikely that the man could have recognized Knox at all given how short a time she had been in town and the man didn't come forward until he was contacted by a journalist months after the murder.

Abrams' theory that they might not have murdered Kercher but were in the apartment when the murder occurred is total crap. First, although it is not generally known to the general public Knox and Sollecito have a pretty good alibi for when it is very likely the murder occurred. The autopsy showed that none of Kercher's last meal had entered her intestines before she was killed. Based on what I've read and tend to believe about this fact, the time of death had to be before 10 PM and it is very unlikely that it was that late. Guede's time of arrival which can be roughly established because he was caught on camera and because he mention's a woman's scream at 9:20 PM. Altogether the evidence suggests a time of death somewhat earlier than 9:30 a time at which an analysis of Sollecito's computer activity suggests that somebody was in Sollecito's apartment, presumably Sollecito and Knox.

But the most important reason to reject Abrams theory is that it is from crazy land. There is no evidence that Sollecito knew Guede at all and the evidence is that Knox had only the briefest of interactions with Guede when he visited the apartment before the murders and perhaps in the bar where she worked. There are no telephone calls between Knox and Guede or Sollecito and Guede that show up in any of their phone logs. So Abrams theory is that two young lovers who have just met, find themselves in an apartment where a brutal murder is being committed and they decide to hide the fact from the police? With what possible motivation? There is none unless one decides that despite all the evidence to the contrary Knox and Sollecito are not what they seem to be and they were involved in some sort of conspiracy with Guede. But this is a conspiracy for which there is zero evidence and which is completely out of character for Knox and Sollecito as demonstrated by their lives before and after the crime.

It is hard for me to edit myself with regard to this post. I doubt that you have enough interest in the case for me to justify a long response, which is the reason that I was hoping to find an organized response to Abrams' article that you could read or not read at your leisure. There is also the problem that you should be rightly skeptical of information that I supply since I have a strong point of view about this and without providing the references to back up what I claim here there is, from your point of view, good reason to be skeptical of what I claim.

There are strong arguments against the reliability and interpretation of the evidence that has been put forth against Sollecito and Knox and I can't even summarize those briefly enough to include them in this email but one thing I noticed since I have been reading and thinking about this case is this: Guede went dancing and actually stayed in town for a few days after the murder. If he had accomplices or in Abrams' theory possibly uninvolved witnesses wouldn't the fear of his accomplices turning on him or the witnesses just talking to the police cause him to flee immediately?

The aspect of this case that might interest psychologist [friend's name] the most is the alleged Knox confession. This is not a confession at all. After hours of interrogation the police ask Knox to imagine that she is at the crime scene with Lumumba, the man she is charged with falsely accusing. Knox complies and manages to produce a story about being in the apartment as Kercher is murdered and covering her ears with her hands to block out the sound of the screams. When the police manage to extract this bogus statement from Knox they announce that they have solved the crime and they have proof that the people that they thought were guilty are guilty. Except that Lumumba, the man that they coerced Knox into naming has an airtight alibi. So they were wrong about Lumumba, but instead of considering the possibility that they were wrong completely they create a fantasy scenario that Guede the obvious murderer had accomplices and those accomplices had to be Knox and Sollecito. As an aside, after a full night of sleep Knox makes a written statement where she completely withdraws everything that she had said the night before about Lumumba.

This is some information about Guede, the actual murderer:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/merediths-killer-rudy-guede/[qimg]https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif[/qimg]

Dave, here are some corrections or clarifications to what you wrote.

Re: possible contact between Knox and Guede:
You wrote that Guede had visited the apartment, wording it in such a way that an unknowledgeable reader might think you are referring to the women's apartment. Guede never visited the women's apartment, the upstairs apartment, before the crime. He had visited the guys' apartment, the downstairs apartment, twice. One evening Knox was walking home from the university area when she ran into 3 of the guys who lived downstairs. Guede was with them. They (5) all walked back as a group to the cottage together. Knox went to her flat and at the guys' suggestion, Knox and Kercher went downstairs to the guys' flat where all seven sat around talking and smoking pot until very late at night - perhaps 2 am. Guede was there; nobody reported that Knox or Kercher had any conversation with Guede except a few words of pleasantries.

Guede may have been a customer once at Le Chic when Knox was waitressing, although this is not a known fact - just speculation. Had Guede come there when Knox was waitressing, she might have taken his drink order, or might not. There is no evidence of that - no evidence if contact at Le Chic, let alone a relationship.

In your description you write it briefly but in such a way that it sounds as if Knox told a story or account about Lumumba being at her flat killing Kercher. In fact, there was no cohesive account or story. The police elicited three or five word answers to loaded questions, not comprehensive sentences or paragraphs from Knox. They got her to imagine being there, even though she wasn't there and repeatedly told them she was not there. One set of questions was about what she would have heard when Kercher was murdered. Knox said she wouldn't have heard anything. The police shouted at her that she must have heard and challenged her why she didn't hear. Knox said she would have covered her ears. This is a set of short answers to pointed, agressive police questions - not a lucid story or organized story or structured story from Knox.

The day after the crime the police asked local shop staff about Sollecito and Knox. Quintavalle was asked about them and shown their photos. He knew who Sollecito was because Sollecito shopped there. Quintavalle said he had not seen them in his store the day after the crime. That is an important fact to know first about Quintavalle before his memory changed 8 months to a year later. In the day after the crime, when his memory was current, he knew and saw nothing of Knox or Sollecito in his store.

It is established by the video that Kercher entered her flat at 9:04 pm.
 
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Or - he went to sleep but got up two hours later, as usual, without looking at his watch, and then heard a blood-curdling scream that froze his blood. He mentioned it to Mrs Mignini but to no one else. Then the phone rang and then he went to the questura. That's how we can be sure of the time.

And does he really have a driver on 24 hour alert? WTF for? He's only a prosecutor. If they shaved the 24/7 chauffeur service off the budget maybe they could afford a tape recording. I smell bull droppings.

Mignini doesn't have any driver. He goes walks to work every morning. But at 2am the police sent a car to pick him up - right because it was 2am, it was urgent and because the Questura is not behind the corner and not the usual place for him to go.
 
A reminder.....

Machiavelli said:
<snip>What does it mean "at the very least"? The truth is no money was proven to be missing, only the phones, and this is not theft but illicit appropriation (you can't steal from a dead person) and clearly taken by someone who did not intend to keep them, since the person immediately tossed them in a ravine.

Taking the phone is not a theft, because the owner is dead; and the intent was not to have the phones, because they were tossed. The taking of phone was part of a staging.<snip>
 
I Rode the SLUT too

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Hey, I've always liked sluts....I've never seen it to be shameful. And if it wasn't for sluts, I probably would never have got any.

Just because they'll put out doesn't mean that they are evil. It means that they are friendly.
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We also have a Trolley car here in Seattle nicknamed the SLUT, South Lake Union Trolley. You can also get T-Shirt's with "I rode the SLUT" on it in coffee shops along the SLUT's route. Or at least, they were available when I rode it back in the day.

Maybe it's just a Seattle thing,

d

P.S. I believe Paul Allen had something to do with that also, he's heavily invested in turning the South Lake Union area into a Bio Technology Center and also the SEAHAWKS!!!
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