Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Machiavelli's claim that Rudy did not commit theft, because one cannot steal from a dead person.....

... reminds some of the old defence in the case of where someone killed his parents. He claimed mitigation because he was an orphan.

It's quite an interesting point. Property must 'belong to another' in order to be capable of being stolen. You cannot steal a wild animal, for example. I guess the answer would be, in English law anyway, that upon death her property would immediately pass to her estate to be administered by those entitled to apply for letters of administration or, if she made a will, probate. It would not belong to nobody at all. Otherwise we would all be free to appropriate the property of the dead pending any grant. This cannot be the law in Italy - or anywhere else - so I doubt Mach's argument which offends common sense.

ETA ninja'd by Dan (trespassing where he has no business)
 
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inaccurate premise, faulty conclusion

Sergei,

Dan Abrams' contact page says, "I'm not going to let people get away with either a dishonest or inaccurate premise...I think that does the viewers a disservice." I don't think asking him to live up to his own standards is asking too much.
 
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The only thing at issue, if this CBS piece is true, is there enough bias shown by Judge Nencini in last week's reconviction of Sollecito and Knox to nullify it.

**Link Delete**

Question. . . .Is the European Court of Human Rights more likely to see such cases that the US Supreme Court?
 
When Meredith died, everything she owned became the property of her estate. Property in an estate is distributed by an executor in accordance with the deceased will if one exists and applicable law. Stealing from an estate is considered a crime just like stealing from a person.
 
Sergei,

Dan Abrams' contact page says, "I'm not going to let people get away with either a dishonest or inaccurate premise...I think that does the viewers a disservice." I don't think asking him to live up to his own standards is asking too much.


Has he provided a source to back-up his assertion that Amanda was drunk that evening? I had never heard this claim prior to his article
 
Having read most of Dan Abrams' piece, I think PIPs would do well to take a step back from it. No doubt there are errors, but it seems to me to be a healthy exercise in skeptical inquiry. After considering in very thorough detail everything that might conceivably raise suspicions against AK and RS, he ultimately finds the case against them wanting. What he's arguing against is the contention that AK and RS are in trouble for no deeper reason than that the Italian authorities are stupid, which might be good enough for many here, but doesn't satisfy discriminating newcomers to the case. Warts and all, Knox is better served by a piece like Abrams' than she would be by another pro-innocence polemic.

I had hoped to find an organized response to the Abrams' piece. I disagree that it is a healthy exercise in skeptical inquiry. Skeptical inquiry does not involve putting forth unlikely theories and then supporting the theories with a misleading description of the evidence.

A long time friend of mine wrote me and linked to the article. I wanted to just send him a link to a response so he could decide how interested he was and how much he wanted to read. I didn't find that response, so I wrote him a fairly long response that very well might have exceeded his interest level. This is what I wrote him:

[Critiques, corrections and references will be appreciated]

Hi ,

On the story you linked to:

I was hoping to find an organized rebuttal. The article is horribly misleading while perhaps just treading inside the line of absolute false hood.

A small example, The shop owner that testified that he had seen them the day following the murder:
This was part of the police claim that Knox and Sollecito had used bleach to clean up the apartment and that they had bought bleach from this guy. Except: There is no evidence of crime scene clean up with or without bleach and especially a crime scene clean up by Knox and Sollecito. The man that allegedly saw them couldn't produce a receipt for their purchases, his employees denied that they were in the shop, it is unlikely that the man could have recognized Knox at all given how short a time she had been in town and the man didn't come forward until he was contacted by a journalist months after the murder.

Abrams' theory that they might not have murdered Kercher but were in the apartment when the murder occurred is total crap. First, although it is not generally known to the general public Knox and Sollecito have a pretty good alibi for when it is very likely the murder occurred. The autopsy showed that none of Kercher's last meal had entered her intestines before she was killed. Based on what I've read and tend to believe about this fact, the time of death had to be before 10 PM and it is very unlikely that it was that late. Guede's time of arrival which can be roughly established because he was caught on camera and because he mention's a woman's scream at 9:20 PM. Altogether the evidence suggests a time of death somewhat earlier than 9:30 a time at which an analysis of Sollecito's computer activity suggests that somebody was in Sollecito's apartment, presumably Sollecito and Knox.

But the most important reason to reject Abrams theory is that it is from crazy land. There is no evidence that Sollecito knew Guede at all and the evidence is that Knox had only the briefest of interactions with Guede when he visited the apartment before the murders and perhaps in the bar where she worked. There are no telephone calls between Knox and Guede or Sollecito and Guede that show up in any of their phone logs. So Abrams theory is that two young lovers who have just met, find themselves in an apartment where a brutal murder is being committed and they decide to hide the fact from the police? With what possible motivation? There is none unless one decides that despite all the evidence to the contrary Knox and Sollecito are not what they seem to be and they were involved in some sort of conspiracy with Guede. But this is a conspiracy for which there is zero evidence and which is completely out of character for Knox and Sollecito as demonstrated by their lives before and after the crime.

It is hard for me to edit myself with regard to this post. I doubt that you have enough interest in the case for me to justify a long response, which is the reason that I was hoping to find an organized response to Abrams' article that you could read or not read at your leisure. There is also the problem that you should be rightly skeptical of information that I supply since I have a strong point of view about this and without providing the references to back up what I claim here there is, from your point of view, good reason to be skeptical of what I claim.

There are strong arguments against the reliability and interpretation of the evidence that has been put forth against Sollecito and Knox and I can't even summarize those briefly enough to include them in this email but one thing I noticed since I have been reading and thinking about this case is this: Guede went dancing and actually stayed in town for a few days after the murder. If he had accomplices or in Abrams' theory possibly uninvolved witnesses wouldn't the fear of his accomplices turning on him or the witnesses just talking to the police cause him to flee immediately?

The aspect of this case that might interest psychologist [friend's name] the most is the alleged Knox confession. This is not a confession at all. After hours of interrogation the police ask Knox to imagine that she is at the crime scene with Lumumba, the man she is charged with falsely accusing. Knox complies and manages to produce a story about being in the apartment as Kercher is murdered and covering her ears with her hands to block out the sound of the screams. When the police manage to extract this bogus statement from Knox they announce that they have solved the crime and they have proof that the people that they thought were guilty are guilty. Except that Lumumba, the man that they coerced Knox into naming has an airtight alibi. So they were wrong about Lumumba, but instead of considering the possibility that they were wrong completely they create a fantasy scenario that Guede the obvious murderer had accomplices and those accomplices had to be Knox and Sollecito. As an aside, after a full night of sleep Knox makes a written statement where she completely withdraws everything that she had said the night before about Lumumba.

This is some information about Guede, the actual murderer:
http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/merediths-killer-rudy-guede/
cleardot.gif
 
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I just watched a video and was surprised to hear Dershowitz wasn't nearly as fanatical in his stance as I would have expected him to be, he actually says there is a compelling circumstantial case but not an overwhelming one, there is reasonable doubt and a good attorney in the US or Italy could have proven this. I have never seen a die hard PGP come close to making an admission like this.

Link to video

Dershowitz thinks Italy may not even try to extradite her as a compromise.

The are a series of videos that play one after the other and one has Steve Moore making the claim that Rudy was a paid informant. Is this a new claim? I had never heard this prior to recent mention on this board and by him in this video.
 
Sky News mistranslation

Has he provided a source to back-up his assertion that Amanda was drunk that evening? I had never heard this claim prior to his article
yimyammer,

The closest thing to a source that I can think of is that there was a highly inaccurate (to the point of being in fantasy-land) translation of Amanda's spontaneous statement to the court after Guede's appearance by Sky News IIRC. Abrams' tweet suggests a smug certainty in his research skills and objectivity that just isn't warranted.
 
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Your point is somewhat well taken except for......

... the point of all systems is that the theoretically arrive at the same truth by differing routes.

Many believe, including me, that Italy's judicial reputation is on the line here. I think it is therefore appropriate to look at other countries.

It's a bit of a no win situation if we're limited to looking at Italy. True, you're not saying that, but consider this:

If there are more cases like this in Italy, that means there's a systemic issue of injustice within.

If this one is a one-off miscarriage, then other cases in Italy will show that.

It's a no win - only by looking elsewhere can it really be sorted out.

But yes it's true, would be nice to see italian stuff too.
The passage of this case isn’t about the Italian people or government, I do not believe the Italian justice system or at least their Supreme Court justices show any signs of great concern with this particular case, let’s not forget they ignored the American and their government of the day over the CIA extraordinary rendition case and that had far reaching implications than this case. This is why I remarked on any similar cases in Italy because that is really the only context that matters, comparing this case to any of the ones mentioned that have happened in other countries for me is like comparing apples with oranges.

In the years to come we will see what happens at the ECHR, but again I wonder how many Italian murder cases have been overturned on the grounds being raised here, I don’t know, do you?

I believe the American government of the day will make a political decisions with regards to Amanda’s extradition and Raffaele will continue to be the forgotten man.
 
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I believe the American government of the day will make a political decisions with regards to Amanda’s extradition and Raffaele will continue to be the forgotten man.

You are right but while this is still a wall between getting Ms Knox back in prison, there is little that can be done.

I have to be honest, if there was somewhere without an extradition treaty to Italy that I could have lived and I was him, I would have run.
 
I have always strongly agreed about the idea of YouTube videos, if that is what you mean. But I also like projecting them on outdoor screens.

I know this is really old but how about create a scene with the blood around the room and see if a group of actors / actress can avoid tracking blood all over it.

Then get professional cleaners try to clean up the scene of two of the people but not the third without leaving any signs of doing it.

Then bring in some CSI guys / gals to look for evidence
 
I know this is really old but how about create a scene with the blood around the room and see if a group of actors / actress can avoid tracking blood all over it.

Then get professional cleaners try to clean up the scene of two of the people but not the third without leaving any signs of doing it.

Then bring in some CSI guys / gals to look for evidence

Is it too late to do this? Should have been done a long time ago.
 
I had hoped to find an organized response to the Abrams' piece. I disagree that it is a healthy exercise in skeptical inquiry. Skeptical inquiry does not involve putting forth unlikely theories and then supporting the theories with a misleading description of the evidence.


You could help organize such a response. Digest Dan's article and break it down into talking points. Taking one point at a time, look in the usual places to see if it's already covered and then ask here for the collected facts and wisdom that covers the point. Collect the information you receive, ask for clarification and cites where needed and write or update the wiki page for that element.

If you were to do this, it would certainly be a welcome respite from the monotony of guilters repeating the same talking points and knowing that the answers won't change their thinking. The peer reviewed wiki pages with complete facts and references may then be directly available to the journalists so they can get their facts straight in future articles.
 
You could help organize such a response. Digest Dan's article and break it down into talking points. Taking one point at a time, look in the usual places to see if it's already covered and then ask here for the collected facts and wisdom that covers the point. Collect the information you receive, ask for clarification and cites where needed and write or update the wiki page for that element.

If you were to do this, it would certainly be a welcome respite from the monotony of guilters repeating the same talking points and knowing that the answers won't change their thinking. The peer reviewed wiki pages with complete facts and references may then be directly available to the journalists so they can get their facts straight in future articles.

I am off to engage in activity necessitated by the cruel capitalist system that that forces me to do work that will supply me with financial remuneration. I would like to take a crack at doing an outline later if somebody hasn't begun one already.
 
Common sense has been playing hooky in Perugia for over six years.

That is true, but there are 700,000 people lining 4th Avenue in Seattle today. That's actually more than live within the entire city limits.

Off topic, I know...but I've been waiting for this for 39 years.
 
You are talking with a guy bolint who has worked in the data communications industry for going on 20 years. This is right in my wheel house.

Overall, the Beradi tower may have been the most likely tower to connect through but that doesn't mean that a call has to connect through it. Distance wise, the Acquedetto antenna is actually closer. I mapped out all the cell antennas with Google Earth and used the tools to measure the distances between the cell towers and points of interest including the cottage and Raffaele's apartment.

But there are other reasons that this tower didnt' connect through the Beradi antenna at 20:18 such as the possibility that the Beradi antenna was saturated with calls at that specific moment. Also given the architecture, the stone walls everywhere, few feet in any direction can effect what is the best signal. This is what cellular expert determined.

You're right there is a chance that Amanda wasn't at Raffaele's apartment at 20:18. A chance, and nothing more. It certainly isn't evidence of the fact and it would be flat out WRONG to think this is proof that Amanda wasn't at Raffaele's apartment.

I have to say. Your post is exactly what is wrong with the guilter perspective. You immediately take the guilt perspective on a piece of evidence that is incredibly inconclusive. Don't you see, that when the evidence is this suspect that you should say it has zero weight? That it means NOTHING.

20years experience...ok, this kind of experience isnt required of jurys and judges, but interesting input.

How about the other side of the coin....is the cell call on Merediths cell phone at 10:13pm from inside the cottage or outside the cottage?
 
Seattle Off Topic?

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That is true, but there are 700,000 people lining 4th Avenue in Seattle today. That's actually more than live within the entire city limits.

Off topic, I know...but I've been waiting for this for 39 years.

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I don't know if it's off topic (probably is), but let's see if we can connect this up anyway. Should be easy since Amanda lives here, which brings up, is she a fan? Chances are pretty good she is. Although being a soccer player, she might consider it funny that grown men wear all that protective gear when playing a game.

And with the motivation report coming up, Nencini investigation, Dershowitz toning down his rhetoric, and possible ECHR sanctions (or whatever they're called), people from all over the world coming to Seattle, maybe talking and learning about the truth about what happened in Italy; she might be seeing this Super Bowl win as a good sign of good things to come, but that's just my opinion,

d

ETA I wouldn't be surprised if Nencini, knowing he had to find for guilty, and since maybe he might not think they are guilty, did the interview as a way to get the verdict overturned anyway... just a thought.
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