Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
<snip>What does it mean "at the very least"? The truth is no money was proven to be missing, only the phones, and this is not theft but illicit appropriation (you can't steal from a dead person) and clearly taken by someone who did not intend to keep them, since the person immediately tossed them in a ravine.

Taking the phone is not a theft, because the owner is dead; and the intent was not to have the phones, because they were tossed. The taking of phone was part of a staging.<snip>

It is truly shocking you would defend Rudy this way, and it would be even if what you are saying were true. But what you are saying is not true. Meredith was still alive when Rudy left her.

Can't steal from a dead person....unbelievable. Would you be able to understand the concept better if we said he stole from Meredith's room? The definition of stealing lies with the thief not the victim. :boggled:
 
Last edited:
When the Milan police arrested Rudy, the found him in possession of a cell phone stolen from a Perugia office. Since Rudy had lifted cell phones before, why us it so hard to believe that he pocketed the two that Meredith had?
 
Machiavelli said:
<snip>What does it mean "at the very least"? The truth is no money was proven to be missing, only the phones, and this is not theft but illicit appropriation (you can't steal from a dead person) and clearly taken by someone who did not intend to keep them, since the person immediately tossed them in a ravine.

Taking the phone is not a theft, because the owner is dead; and the intent was not to have the phones, because they were tossed. The taking of phone was part of a staging.<snip>

It is truly shocking you would defend Rudy this way, and it would be even if what you are saying were true. But what you are saying is not true. Meredith was still alive when Rudy left her.

Can't steal from a dead person....unbelievable. Would you be able to understand the concept better if we said he stole from Meredith's room? The definition of stealing lies with the thief not the victim. :boggled:

Truly, I think that someone has hacked Machiavelli's account, and is trying to make him appear a heartless brute.

I am adding this to my list of "Machavellisms": you can't steal from a dead person.

You can't steal from a dead person. I am copying and pasting this as one example of how far wrong guilters have gone.

CoulsdonUK.... what's your assessment of this?
 
Well a pointed knife is certainly a weapon under Italian jurisprudence. It is a tool if there is a context for it to be used as a tool and the object is shaped for that use. I am not interested in drawing any inference from Sollecito's carrying a weapon inside a police station, that could have been a mistake, a distraction. You forget to empty your pockets.


Raffaele carried a tool. There is no evidence or testimony of it ever being used as a weapon. The police tore this tool apart looking for blood and found nothing. Raffaele was at a function where this tool that he carried would be used (to cut pizza). From there he went to the police station. Do they have a sign outside the door saying "please leave tools outside”?

Before Raffaele went to the station, the police had released a statement to the press stating that the murder weapon was likely a pocket knife. Before that they had intercepted the call between Raffaele and his dad where the fact that Raffaele carried a pocket knife was discussed. I am truly surprised that they did not find Meredith's blood on that knife. Perhaps Stefie hadn't read the memo.
 
I find it curious that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever state their alibis in their many interviews.

If I was innocent of a murder, I would never let an interview pass where I didn't say where I was at the alleged time of the crime.

Yet both Sollecito and Knox prefer to talk vaguely about mistreatment or injustice.

My question is why don't they just say, clearly, and on television, when the stakes are highest, what they were doing.
 
When the Milan police arrested Rudy, the found him in possession of a cell phone stolen from a Perugia office. Since Rudy had lifted cell phones before, why us it so hard to believe that he pocketed the two that Meredith had?

Even if you follow Machiavelli's argument that you can't use Rudy's prior behavior to convict him of the cell phone thefts, it is perfectly reasonable to use this argument in defense of AK and RS by offering a perfectly likely alternate theory. Rudy is a very plausible cell phone pincher, having done it before - more so than AK and RS who had not previously made off with other peoples' phones.
 
I find it curious that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever state their alibis in their many interviews.

If I was innocent of a murder, I would never let an interview pass where I didn't say where I was at the alleged time of the crime.

Yet both Sollecito and Knox prefer to talk vaguely about mistreatment or injustice.

My question is why don't they just say, clearly, and on television, when the stakes are highest, what they were doing.

I don't find it curious at all. Knox particularly talks about the impossibility of commiting a crime and not have anything which points to it forensically. Raffaele talks about being frustrated that he's never asked questions at court... where it counts.

I'm curious as to why the various prosecution and courts who've found them guilty need to be reinventing the crime each time. Look at what Crini did with the ISC's stipulation that it was a "sex crime gone wrong"! He denied it and substituted his own version of the crime!
 
Last edited:
I find it curious that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever state their alibis in their many interviews.

If I was innocent of a murder, I would never let an interview pass where I didn't say where I was at the alleged time of the crime.

Yet both Sollecito and Knox prefer to talk vaguely about mistreatment or injustice.

My question is why don't they just say, clearly, and on television, when the stakes are highest, what they were doing.

That's kind of a tough one Griffin. I've heard them do dozens of interviews where they say what they were doing at the time of the murder. But I think most people miss when they say they were at his apartment. Their alibi is each other which doesn't help all that much when the police fold him into their crazy theory.

For the most part, I think they have done very well during their interviews. I can think of a few things I would have done differently, but I wonder if that might be my own subjectivity and perspective and not necessarily the rest of the world's.

I kind of think that your criticism may be a bit like mine. Something that is apparent to ourselves, but not necessarily a universal perspective. Maybe?? Possible?? What do you think Griffin?
 
I find it curious that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever state their alibis in their many interviews.

If I was innocent of a murder, I would never let an interview pass where I didn't say where I was at the alleged time of the crime.

Yet both Sollecito and Knox prefer to talk vaguely about mistreatment or injustice.

My question is why don't they just say, clearly, and on television, when the stakes are highest, what they were doing.

Their alibis are each other - they both state in their books they spent the entire night together at Raffaele's apt smoking weed, having sex, watching a movie, reading a book, etc. This is their biggest problem - they have no alibi, no other witnesses except each other, cell phones turned off, and a computer that shows no activity a little after 9pm. It's not the strongest part of their defense.
 
Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post

Taking the phone is not a theft, because the owner is dead; and the intent was not to have the phones, because they were tossed. The taking of phone was part of a staging.<snip>


It is truly shocking you would defend Rudy this way, and it would be even if what you are saying were true. But what you are saying is not true. Meredith was still alive when Rudy left her.

Can't steal from a dead person....unbelievable. Would you be able to understand the concept better if we said he stole from Meredith's room? The definition of stealing lies with the thief not the victim. :boggled:



:covereyes:boggled: You can't steal from a dead person? Seriously??? This is one of the dumbest arguments that I think you have ever made. And that is saying something.

Even if you buy into this incredibly silly argument that Rudy wouldn't have been stealing from Meredith, you have to remember that now that she has passed, her belongings now are the property of her heirs. So it's stealing regardless.
 
That's kind of a tough one Griffin. I've heard them do dozens of interviews where they say what they were doing at the time of the murder. But I think most people miss when they say they were at his apartment. Their alibi is each other which doesn't help all that much when the police fold him into their crazy theory.

For the most part, I think they have done very well during their interviews. I can think of a few things I would have done differently, but I wonder if that might be my own subjectivity and perspective and not necessarily the rest of the world's.

I kind of think that your criticism may be a bit like mine. Something that is apparent to ourselves, but not necessarily a universal perspective. Maybe?? Possible?? What do you think Griffin?

Are there any television interviews you can think of where they directly state their alibi?
 
Their alibis are each other - they both state in their books they spent the entire night together at Raffaele's apt smoking weed, having sex, watching a movie, reading a book, etc. This is their biggest problem - they have no alibi, no other witnesses except each other, cell phones turned off, and a computer that shows no activity a little after 9pm. It's not the strongest part of their defense.

The computer evidence and the testimony of Raffaele's neighbor is actually pretty strong if you take into account the most likely time of death is pretty close to 9:00 PM. The state of Meredith' digestion and Rudy said that Meredith was killed around 9:30. And Raffaele's neighbor stopped by at 8:45 to tell Raffaele that she didn't need to take him to the train station as he had promised her earlier.
 
Are there any television interviews you can think of where they directly state their alibi?

Dozens. They'd also already been secretly bugged by PLE saying this to family. Although, Machiavelli believes this to be "Mafia code" meaning the opposite.

Me, I'm still recovering from Mach's, "you can't steal from a dead person," comment.
 
The computer evidence and the testimony of Raffaele's neighbor is actually pretty strong if you take into account the most likely time of death is pretty close to 9:00 PM. The state of Meredith' digestion and Rudy said that Meredith was killed around 9:30. And Raffaele's neighbor stopped by at 8:45 to tell Raffaele that she didn't need to take him to the train station as he had promised her earlier.

Too bad it's a 5 min walk to Amanda's apt and programs can run even without anyone present.
 
What 'crimes'?

Unlawful entry, trespassing, theft of a weapon, leaving the kitchen trashed, lying to police, possession of stolen goods.

Definitely not 'Big', but there might be a little trouble.

But it's OK to have it in your bag at a nursery school provided you stole it from them? Walking down the street with it you can say you're just taking it somewhere, people do need to do that on occasion, like after buying one from the store. How is that worse than stealing it and having it where you don't belong amongst toddlers and the like? He wasn't planning on staying so he would have had to transported that weapon had he not been caught.

Your point is that the prosecution should have used suspicion of alleged crimes committed by Rudy to charge him with more. Your point is proven false, and my point is such alleged 'crimes' could not be used to add anything about the charges.

No, I'm saying they should have investigated those crimes and charged him appropriately. Some there wasn't any need to investigate much, others like the possession of the stolen computers might well have led to burglary charges... ;)

You really need to get a bit within boundaries of realiti on this one. The prosecution office of Perugia's jurisdiction coincides with almost the whole Province of Perugia, that is it's like 4000 square kilometer not more than that. The Rome office has a different territory.
People in Florence can be involved in committing crimes that took place in Perugia, like the Narducci case (body discovered on the eastern side of the Trasimeno lake, that is Perugia jurisdiction). And cases can be logically connected together if the other jurisdiction agrees that is the about same deed. But these things are only for complex things involving organized crime.
Sleeping in a school and killing Meredith Kercher are not the same case.

These are logically connected by the same man on his crime spree, and another connection is that the computers were stolen from Perugia, which is why the Milanese prosecutor called Perugia, isn't it?

Rome is in the Perugia jurisdiction for what concerns crimes committed by Magistrates (I mean Roman Magistrates).

Ah, OK, thanks for the info.

No they could not. Albeit I see you would like him to be charged of non-existent aggravating factors.

Let me put it this way: the fact that the book got thrown at Raffaele and Amanda but Rudy nearly got off scot free despite the absolutely damning evidence against him is very suspicious. Mignini showed great ingenuity in hurting Amanda and Raffaele, in part by also charging their families with crimes. And their supporters.

This is idiotic. There isn't any charge such as "crime spree", besides there isn't any "crime spree culmnatin in". You are making up the law. In the Kercher case, he could only be charged with things directly connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher. There is no relation between sleeping in a school and the killing of Meredith Kercher. There is no relation between any other thing Guede did any other day and the Meredith Kercher murder: those alleged crimes are not part of the case.

When Italian officials capture a burglar and find evidence of other crimes during the investigation do they just ignore them?

You don't need to believe, you need to know the law, to be used to it, and acknowledge what you see.


False. Art. 104 cpp is not a 'mafia law'.

Whatever it's called it restricts the right to see a lawyer and leads to solitary confinement, I've read it was to make mafia cases easier to crack. At any rate it shows a vigor to punish Raffaele and Amanda that was entirely missing when it came to babying Rudy's bum. Why is that?

completely made up and unproven (for the sake of those accusing me of not substantiating claims).

I'm talking about the lying Mignini did before Matteini. I'll start with the 'second opinion' on Rudy's shoeprints that Mignini got an 'exact match' (to Raffaele's) report after the first was was rightfully much vaguer. That turned out to be without a doubt fraudulent evidence that he suborned. How about the nonsense regarding Amanda holding down Meredith's face? An outright lie. The whole 'sex game gone wrong' was a total fraud right from the beginning, there was absolutely nothing about the scene which suggested a party or gathering nor anything else suggesting there was a 'sex game.' There was a broken window, a messed up room and a dead girl. They made their arrests on the basis of a phone message that suggested nothing other than a meeting (to them at least) and the statements said nothing about a 'sex game' or anything like it and didn't implicate Raffaele at all in the murder. The 'sex game gone wrong' was a total fabrication bereft of evidence and an outright lie.


Just keep "(:p)" demonstrating you are not serious. I have already proven that you are wrong, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

I'm serious it just doesn't have to impede adding some humor. The (:p) was for your benefit so you'd better be able to understand what I meant by 'severe coddling.'

What does it mean "at the very least"? The truth is no money was proven to be missing, only the phones, and this is not theft but illicit appropriation (you can't steal from a dead person) and clearly taken by someone who did not intend to keep them, since the person immediately tossed them in a ravine.

It means the victim was dead and it's possible other things were stolen, no one would know for sure. Being as the Polizia Scientifica trashed her belongings, including the last gifts she'd bought for her family that they might have wanted in remembrance of her, they wouldn't be able to say either.

Meredith's rent money was due and it was the first and hadn't been paid and has never been found. They included it as missing for a reason in the charges.

Taking the phone is not a theft, because the owner is dead; and the intent was not to have the phones, because they were tossed. The taking of phone was part of a staging.

That's just dumb, who on earth would run off with cellphones as far as they were away from the cottage to 'stage' a break-in? Just how mindless does this 'staging' have to be until people realize there was no reason whatsoever to stage a break-in. The only reason for the 'staged break-in' is that idiot cops jumped to an extreme conclusion off limited data when they saw a real break-in that your average pot-bellied pork product couldn't do themselves.

They were not searched. Everything untouched, everything in order. Not searched.

I've read about or seen pictures of a cracked drawer, in Laura's room I believe. Plus it does look like someone ruffled through Filomena's room!

Maybe because Guede got the maximum, 30 years? Or maybe, did you want Guede to get 16 years and 6 months?

Guede may have gotten the maximum on one charge, but it was severely mitigated and it looks like he'll be out walking the streets soon. There are ways to keep people in prison more than seven years, I know that because I've read of a number of criminals in Italy who've been there longer...on lesser offenses.


From the wiki:

In detail, according to articles 576 and 577 is punishable with life imprisonment murder committed:

In order to commit another crime, or in order to escape, of favor, or take advantage from another crime (art.61, sect.2);

Against a next of kin (parent or child) and either through insidious means, with premeditation, cruelly, of for futile motives;

By a fugitive in order to escape capture, or in order to acquire means of subsistence;

While raping or sexually assaulting a person (articles 609 bis, 609 quater, 609 octies);

By a stalker against the victim of stalking;

Against a police officer engaged in enforcing the law;

In a cruel way and/or through the use of torture (art.61, sect.1);

For abject and/or futile motives (art.61, sect.4);

Against a next of kin (parent or child);

Through insidious means;

With premeditation.


There's a number of those that could have applied to this case had Mignini prosecuted it that way.
 
Last edited:
I find it curious that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever state their alibis in their many interviews.

If I was innocent of a murder, I would never let an interview pass where I didn't say where I was at the alleged time of the crime.

Yet both Sollecito and Knox prefer to talk vaguely about mistreatment or injustice.

My question is why don't they just say, clearly, and on television, when the stakes are highest, what they were doing.


Is there anyone in the world that does not know where Amanda and Raffaele claim they were? Unless you are claiming that you have a special ability to detect lies when people speak then it's not going to make any difference hearing them say it. If you do think you have some special ability then you've come to the right place to have that ability tested. Their might even be a $Million waiting for you if you can prove it.

What I want to know is: Why haven't any of the many prosecutors in this case ever stated clearly their theory of the crime they are accusing Amanda and Raffaele of committing with a timeline for when this crime is supposed to have occurred?
 
Last edited:
Are there any television interviews you can think of where they directly state their alibi?

I'd have to go back and review them Griffin. I'm sure that they have...but I'm not sure at this moment, which ones, they have been interviewed so many times. I'm pretty sure that during her interview with Cuomo as well as during her first interview with Diane Sawyer. But I'm doing it from memory.

Go to Injustice Anywhere and you can find links to many of her interviews.
 
Too bad it's a 5 min walk to Amanda's apt and programs can run even without anyone present.

That's true, but what do you think lamasheen. That they ran from their cozy little love nest to murder her roommate in a 5 minute window?

It seems absurd to me lamasheen, that Amanda and Raffaele. Two young kids who have never done anything violent in their lives and who knew each other for exactly one week went from heavy petting to essentially premeditated murder with a total stranger and then the strange went his separate ways.

I mean that's just me. What do you think?
 
Too bad it's a 5 min walk to Amanda's apt and programs can run even without anyone present.

However considering you already know someone did the murder, what with his leaving his traces on her clothes, inside her body, on her pillow, on her purse and on her floor why do you need to bring two extraneous people into it who were arrested on completely bogus or mistaken evidence?

You know who did the murder, you know the first people were arrested for nonsense, wherein lies the difficulty in realizing that a spontaneous conspiracy involving three people who barely knew each other is this side of impossible?

A guy broke in and killed Meredith then fled the country. It's that simple.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom