Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

What the sleazy knife carrier is doing in his diary is telling us that yes, she did indeed have a key.

I guess you forgot to include that part?

 

[MDDVS]

From the knife carriers book:

"“Amanda Knox did not leave – could not have left – my house on the night of the murder."

“She didn’t have her own key, so if she’d gone out alone, she would have had to ring the doorbell and ask me to buzz her back in. Even if I’d been stoned or asleep when she rang, I would have remembered that. And it didn’t happen.”

Yet this is Raffles writing in his diary on the 11th of Nov..... a full week after the murder:

"My real concerns are now two: the first one derives from the fact that, if that night Amanda remained with me all night long, we could have (and this is a very remote possibility) made love all evening and night only stopping to eat... it would be a real problem because there would be no connections from my computer to servers in those hours..."

If that night she remained with him?

And this is the knife carrier Raffaele Sollecito writing on the 18th of Nov.... over 2 weeks after the murder:

"Thinking and reconstructing, I think that she always remained with me; the only thing I do not remember exactly is if she went out for a few minutes in the early evening."

I think?

Later he writes:

"I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then come back home."

Ok... now he's "convinced". Is he convinced that she didn't go out because because she didn't have a key to get back in?

No. He's convinced because:

"The fact that there is Meredithʹs DNA on the kitchen knife is because on one occasion, while we were cooking together, I, while moving around at home [and] handling the knife, pricked her hand, and I apologized at once but she was not hurt [lei non si era fatta niente]. So the only real explanation for that kitchen knife is this one."

LOL.

What the sleazy knife carrier is doing in his diary is telling us that yes, she did indeed have a key.

Of course his self serving book now states ...hey, she couldn't have gone out without me knowing because she didn't have a key!

Right knife boy. Right.

Vibio, can you explain how Meredith's last meal was still fully inside her stomach when she died?

 

[syllogism]

Everyone is all excited about what the US will do when Italy requests extradition.

But . . .

Any chance the ECHR could enjoin Italy from requesting extradition pursuant to the ECHR's interim measures power, pending disposition of Knox's appeal? That would be fascinating.

Absolutely no chance whatsoever. If it was a question of Italy being the extraditing country and it was to a non-signatory state, that would be a different story.

 

[acbytesla]

From the knife carriers book:

"“Amanda Knox did not leave – could not have left – my house on the night of the murder."

“She didn’t have her own key, so if she’d gone out alone, she would have had to ring the doorbell and ask me to buzz her back in. Even if I’d been stoned or asleep when she rang, I would have remembered that. And it didn’t happen.”

Yet this is Raffles writing in his diary on the 11th of Nov..... a full week after the murder:

"My real concerns are now two: the first one derives from the fact that, if that night Amanda remained with me all night long, we could have (and this is a very remote possibility) made love all evening and night only stopping to eat... it would be a real problem because there would be no connections from my computer to servers in those hours..."

If that night she remained with him?

And this is the knife carrier Raffaele Sollecito writing on the 18th of Nov.... over 2 weeks after the murder:

"Thinking and reconstructing, I think that she always remained with me; the only thing I do not remember exactly is if she went out for a few minutes in the early evening."

I think?

Later he writes:

"I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then come back home."

Ok... now he's "convinced". Is he convinced that she didn't go out because because she didn't have a key to get back in?

No. He's convinced because:

"The fact that there is Meredithʹs DNA on the kitchen knife is because on one occasion, while we were cooking together, I, while moving around at home [and] handling the knife, pricked her hand, and I apologized at once but she was not hurt [lei non si era fatta niente]. So the only real explanation for that kitchen knife is this one."

LOL.

What the sleazy knife carrier is doing in his diary is telling us that yes, she did indeed have a key.

Of course his self serving book now states ...hey, she couldn't have gone out without me knowing because she didn't have a key!

Right knife boy. Right.

Right is right Vibio. You are twisting his words and his meanings.

And I'm curious. What makes him sleazy in your book?
That he had premarital sex with Amanda? Or that he had a Manga comic book? Seriously, why do you call him sleazy?

 

[platonov]

Basoons it is then ?

Do you have a link to the appearance or a report of it?

So Kaosium - what do you think.

Has Moore finally cracked (the conspiracy).
You, and many others, used to be a huge fan of his - what say you to his latest 'discovery'.
Admittedly it overshadows your M/M conspiracy - btw have you abandoned that thread
This Nov 5th fixation is all very well but surely this latest salvo by a FOA talking head is worth a comment.

 

[Kaosium]

The Micheli thing is very interesting. I've never heard of any system, anywhere, that allows a defendant's guilt to be adjudicated in somebody else's trial. It's just ridiculous. Among other things, it would be a slam dunk violation of the right to an independent tribunal and fair trial. Again, it's simply a ridiculous concept.

I got the impression it's not common in Italy either, it's just a loophole Mignini figured would work and he turned out to be right. This system is too easily corrupted by dishonest and unscrupulous men like Mignini.

I recall telling Sherlock that whatever information he was using (in that post) was from the Micheli trial and couldn't be used as evidence against Raffaele and Amanda. I honestly believed that was impossible, for much the same reasons as you wrote above. He must be laughing his ass off at me right now!

That said, I have never fully understood Knox/Sollecito's roles in the Micheli process and the ensuing appeals. I think that the process somehow involved their arraignment, and so they may have participated in at least some of the proceeding. Obviously, though, they would not necessarily have had notice that their guilt was being adjudicated, the same incentive to litigate in advance of their "real" trials, full rights to discovery and to call and cross-examine witnesses, and to appeal. I'd like to understand a little better exactly what their role was in the Guede trial and appeals.
It's still very screwy, though.

They were still in prison due to the Matteini (and Ricciarelli 'confirming' or whatever they call it) ruling, where they were held for one year so their case could be 'investigated.' They were never actually officially charged until Rudy was convicted, at which time Micheli committed them to trial.

I believe I recall Machiavelli saying that they should have tried to get some standing in Guede's trial, however that's supposed to work. That seems like more of the same nonsense though, Raffaele and Amanda's lawyers working in his trial to convict him? I think he's guilty but he has the right to his own trial. Plus it's not like Raffaele and Amanda could testify against him or anything, their representation would have been limited to contesting things like the 'staged break-in' and their claim of multiple attackers, which they ought to be able to do in their own goddamn trial! If Raffaele and Amanda's defense got outplayed one reason is they can't read Mignini's mind and know what he's up to.

 

[Vibio]

Right is right Vibio. You are twisting his words and his meanings.

I'm not. Raffles is very clear in his book: "Even if I’d been stoned or asleep when she rang, I would have remembered that. And it didn’t happen.”

Yet he never comes to that simple, obvious, first-thought conclusion that anyone would come to. If it were true.

And I'm curious. What makes him sleazy in your book? That he had premarital sex with Amanda? Or that he had a Manga comic book? Seriously, why do you call him sleazy?

That's peanuts.

I don't know about over by you... but over here by me, it's illegal to carry a knife.

Perugia isn't Camden New Jersey or Newark. It's a city with a low crime rate. So why would you habitually carry a weapon?

Also Raffaelle is wealthy...he comes from a good family. Young well-to-do Italian boys do not carry knives.

Furthermore.... this is the knife, a Spyderco Delica 4. Watch it in action.

This is the knife Raffles had confiscated from him at police station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaZ1OehNtSQ&feature=player_embedded

BTW... I wonder what would happen to you if you were found to have this on your person inside of an American Police Station. Any ideas?

 

[platonov]

'critical reasoning practices'

Well well well.

I see S Moore the FBI guy has gone public on US TV with the CT I addressed here.
That the Supreme court is in on the conspiracy [ & RG was a police informant ]

Forget the Pentagon Papers, Snowden, wikileaks, the Magna Carta, Lady Diana, Lord Nelson .... even Maggie Thatcher will sit up when she hears this one.
Now that the american public is appraised of the situation no way can AK be extradited.
In fact I'm surprised the missiles aren't already launched, NATO ally or not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is even better than LJ's argument that Italy will have to leave the ECHR or something.

Please take more care in future not to misrepresent my arguments, if you're going to bring them up in your own posts. It's intellectually dishonest and signifies a distinct lack of critical reasoning practices. Thank you in advance

Apologies, I left out part of your argument for the sake of brevity.

If I describe it thus .....

Either the Italians exonerate Amanda, give her a big bag of money, dissolve the republic & make her the Queen OR ELSE they will have to leave the ECHR

..... is that better !

 

[Kaosium]

So Kaosium - what do you think.

Has Moore finally cracked (the conspiracy).
You, and many others, used to be a huge fan of his - what say you to his latest 'discovery'.
Admittedly it overshadows your M/M conspiracy - btw have you abandoned that thread
This Nov 5th fixation is all very well but surely this latest salvo by a FOA talking head is worth a comment.

I think the dingbat NYC prosecutor needs to review the evidence he's talking about. I don't think the best explanation for this debacle continuing is because Rudy was a police informant, which I'm not sure of myself. I think there's a number of parties whose best interest is seeing that Raffaele and Amanda are considered guilty because the way Mignini perverted justice in this case is embarrassing to their system because it shows how easily kooky nonsense can be 'proven' in their courts and the deplorable state of forensics in Italy.

I have not exactly abandoned that thread. I saw your post and was going to say something but had to go do something else and subsequently forgot about it.

 

[Kaosium]

I don't know about over by you... but over here by me, it's illegal to carry a knife.

Perugia isn't Camden New Jersey or Newark. It's a city with a low crime rate. So why would you habitually carry a weapon?

Also Raffaelle is wealthy...he comes from a good family. Young well-to-do Italian boys do not carry knives.

Furthermore.... this is the knife, a Spyderco Delica 4. Watch it in action.

This is the knife Raffles had confiscated from him at police station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaZ1OehNtSQ&feature=player_embedded

BTW... I wonder what would happen to you if you were found to have this on your person inside of an American Police Station. Any ideas?

Uh, nothing. Police aren't afraid of pocket knives here. Some kids carry them because they think it makes them cool, others because a knife is actually a very useful tool. Everywhere my backpack goes a Swiss Army knife goes with it, and that's pretty much everywhere I take my laptop. A similar tool (though more a pliers with a knife blade too) goes everywhere my winter jacket goes. I went through security at Lambeau with it a few weeks back with no comment.

 

[Diocletus]

Absolutely no chance whatsoever. If it was a question of Italy being the extraditing country and it was to a non-signatory state, that would be a different story.

No? It would seem unexpected. On the other hand, is wrongful imprisonment in a place where she was subjected to sexual assault not inhuman and degrading treatment? All she would be doing is asking the ECHR to maintain the status quo until it rules on the merits of her pending application, which might well have some legs. Do you think that the ECHR lacks authority to do so, or just wouldn't want to do it?

 

[Samson]

I'm not. Raffles is very clear in his book: "Even if I’d been stoned or asleep when she rang, I would have remembered that. And it didn’t happen.”

Yet he never comes to that simple, obvious, first-thought conclusion that anyone would come to. If it were true.





That's peanuts.

I don't know about over by you... but over here by me, it's illegal to carry a knife.

Perugia isn't Camden New Jersey or Newark. It's a city with a low crime rate. So why would you habitually carry a weapon?

Also Raffaelle is wealthy...he comes from a good family. Young well-to-do Italian boys do not carry knives.

Furthermore.... this is the knife, a Spyderco Delica 4. Watch it in action.

This is the knife Raffles had confiscated from him at police station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaZ1OehNtSQ&feature=player_embedded

BTW... I wonder what would happen to you if you were found to have this on your person inside of an American Police Station. Any ideas?

Careless of Raffaele to be still carrying the murder weapon. God Ergon wrote an article a couple of weeks ago proving it was so.
Alternatively he isn't a killer and thought nothing of carrying it.

 

[Skind]

Perugia isn't Camden New Jersey or Newark. It's a city with a low crime rate. So why would you habitually carry a weapon?

Probably due to habit. That's what the term means.

Also Raffaelle is wealthy...he comes from a good family. Young well-to-do Italian boys do not carry knives.

So Raffaelle isn't a young well-to-do Italian boy then. Or he is, and therefore young well-to-do Italian boys can carry knives.

Furthermore.... this is the knife, a Spyderco Delica 4. Watch it in action.

This is the knife Raffles had confiscated from him at police station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaZ1OehNtSQ&feature=player_embedded

Thanks for that, I've been trying to tell guilters that the Spyderco D4 is a pocket knife for years. Thanks for posting a video demonstrating that it is designed and carried as one.

Hmm, I've a slight feeling your post didn't go quite the way you intended. No matter, you'll come up with some bullcrap justification no doubt.

But anyway - keep up the good work! Anymore posts like that and you'll have to be put on the Knox PR payroll!

 

[acbytesla]

That's peanuts.

I don't know about over by you... but over here by me, it's illegal to carry a knife.

Perugia isn't Camden New Jersey or Newark. It's a city with a low crime rate. So why would you habitually carry a weapon?

Also Raffaelle is wealthy...he comes from a good family. Young well-to-do Italian boys do not carry knives.

Furthermore.... this is the knife, a Spyderco Delica 4. Watch it in action.

This is the knife Raffles had confiscated from him at police station.

It's illegal to carry a knife? I've been carrying knives since I was ten and my father game me that knife. I'm 53 years old and I still have a knife in my pocket.
I also don't live in Camden or Newark. But I was born in Iowa. And a pen knife really isn't a weapon. It's a tool. I use it to cut boxes, twine, clean fish. And I own a half a dozen knives including the Spyderco. I also have parents that are well to do. Next question.

BTW... I wonder what would happen to you if you were found to have this on your person inside of an American Police Station. Any ideas?

Absolutely NOTHING. If they were arresting you, they would take it from you. But it's is not illegal to carry a knife. My best friend on the planet, a guy I went to college with also carries a knife and he still carries a knife all the time while he's not on the job..actually he carries it while he's on the job as well.

He's a sergeant with the Seattle Police Department.

And if it is illegal to carry a knife in Italy, why didn't they charge him with that crime?

Carrying a knife in my book doesn't make one sleazy.

 

[LondonJohn]

Apologies, I left out part of your argument for the sake of brevity.

If I describe it thus .....

Either the Italians exonerate Amanda, give her a big bag of money, dissolve the republic & make her the Queen OR ELSE they will have to leave the ECHR

..... is that better !

Is this an attempt at humour? I'm not sure.

Either way, no: this is no better as a fair representation of my argument on this issue. And either way, I assume that you're not here to debate in good faith. Am I right?

 

[platonov]

I think the dingbat NYC prosecutor needs to review the evidence he's talking about. I don't think the best explanation for this debacle continuing is because Rudy was a police informant, which I'm not sure of myself. I think there's a number of parties whose best interest is seeing that Raffaele and Amanda are considered guilty because the way Mignini perverted justice in this case is embarrassing to their system because it shows how easily kooky nonsense can be 'proven' in their courts and the deplorable state of forensics in Italy.

Forget this guy - he is probably a jew or an Italian or part of the conspiracy somehow.
Is THE FBI MAN correct about the Supreme court being part of the conspiracy.
And are you sure RG is not a police informant - Steve said he was and like that other oracle Frank S he knows about this stuff remember.

I have not exactly abandoned that thread. I saw your post and was going to say something but had to go do something else and subsequently forgot about it.

I see.

 

[Grinder]

Then what specifically are you talking about considering you know from the convicting judge and transcripts of the trial that voice recordings made in the Questura were used in court? You said they could NEVER be used in court, so what exactly were you referring to?

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at but I'll do my best. Police interviews with people that are not suspects can not be used against them in court. Those interviews may be used against others but not the person giving the interview. Recordings of conversations between people such as Amanda and Raf can be used in court, the transcript for sure if not the actual recording.

Once a person is declared a suspect he can only be interviewed with legal representation present. As I understand it those recorded statements can be used but rarely occur because the lawyer doesn't allow them.

If they don't have the tapes what good would it do to say they were taping anyway, who would sell the story if they didn't have the tapes? If you take anything from Machiavelli's posts on this subject note how he details it's just not that big a deal to them in his opinion, just like hiding the EDFs isn't.

If a person that had the position to know and was in the police station that night came out with an account that the recordings had been made and that a later date they were destroyed after Amanda had the nerve to tell the truth about being slapped; yes, I think that a tab would buy the story. If it was Mignini that ordered the destruction, the price would be higher. It is much bigger than hiding the EDF's because everybody can understand what the recordings mean.

They know that Stefanoni hid the TMB negatives and lied about it in court, Massei quoted Gino on this point. They know Stefanoni never quantified the amount she extracted from the bra clasp and lied about it in court, no biggie! The bra clasp deteriorates due to be stored in a manner that would ensure it, that's just business as usual. So why would anyone risk their career and friendships to tell about something that no one in Italy would care about and (especially without proof) all they would garner is condemnation by the police and prosecution? They'd be facing calunnia charges!

As I cited earlier, Massei lists amongst those that had to be transcribed the following:

Well, it is my opinion that if they had made recordings that it would be a much bigger story than TBM or is that TMB? They would risk all you describe for money and perhaps because they would want the truth to come out. While I think this case has had a lot of incompetence and cover-ups of that incompetence, I'm not convinced there are no Italians that have honor.

ETA - As the souvenir photo takers showed us, the PLE did create and sell them. The interview would have been perceived as valuable immediately and the technician or the transcribers could have made a copy. It would seem a copy would be made as a matter of course. At the time there would be no reason for the PLE to fear it coming out because they had cracked the case.

 

[platonov]

Duality or Flight

You can hardly blame the guy, according to extracts I have seen from his book, his family wanted him to distance himself from Amanda before the 1st level trial; his initial legal advice was also the same.

I just find the duality here remarkable, might as well rename the thread to the Amanda Knox case.

Having said that, wonder if he regrets not testifying.

Indeed - perhaps we could have a catchy title like say ...

Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

It has a certain ring dont you think ?

On a more serious note - I saw RS on CNN ?
First time I have seen this particular primate - one thing struck me.

He had a US lawyer - does he know something the Italian cops dont know.

 

[acbytesla]

Here is a better you tube video reviewing the Spyderco Delica 4. The video compares to 3 other knives. The Delica 4 has the smallest blade by far. If you are thinking about buying a knife as a weapon, the Delica 4 is not going to be your choice. The fact that Vibio posts a link of some teenager showing just how quickly he can open the knife like he's a gunslinger means nothing. I'm sure even Vibio knows that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAGBlvP1oU

 

[Kaosium]

Forget this guy - he is probably a jew or an Italian or part of the conspiracy somehow.

No, he's a dingbat cribbing off the false wiki or what Harry Rag and friends keep bombarding e-mail boxes with.

Is THE FBI MAN correct about the Supreme court being part of the conspiracy.
And are you sure RG is not a police informant - Steve said he was and like that other oracle Frank S he knows about this stuff remember.

I don't think Guede being an informant explains enough, so if he is or not that's not why Raffaele and Amanda are still being persecuted.

I see.

Do you listen too?