Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

[Foster Zygote]

Actually, that was your own question that you now consider pointless.

I was exposing a stupid argument by a poster who argued that Roman soldiers were not in Paul's audience when he had no evidence whatsoever of such a thing if Paul did exist and preach in Jerusalem.

No. That is not how it happened. Obviously you remember it differently, but Brainache's statement that Paul wasn't aiming his message at the Roman soldiers who nailed Jesus up came after you wrote the text that prompted my question. Here are the exchanges in order:

Do you think that if Jesus was real, he was God?

Is that the problem?

Do you think that if Jesus was really a Crucified Criminal, caught red-handed, that he would be worshiped as a God by those who caught him in the act and Crucified him?

The people Paul was preaching to were not Roman Soldiers acting under orders from Pilate.

So, as you should be able to clearly see, The text you wrote that I am asking about was not made in response to an argument made by Brianache. In fact it was a non sequitur response to a question Brainache asked you about Jesus' divinity.

The rest of your post is another evasive non sequitur.

So, are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers and bureaucrats actually involved in the arrest, sentencing and execution of Jesus must have worshipped him as a god for an historical Jesus to have existed?

 

[Brainache]

No. That is not how it happened. Obviously you remember it differently, but Brainache's statement that Paul wasn't aiming his message at the Roman soldiers who nailed Jesus up came after you wrote the text that prompted my question. Here are the exchanges in order:





So, as you should be able to clearly see, The text you wrote that I am asking about was not made in response to an argument made by Brianache. In fact it was a non sequitur response to a question Brainache asked you about Jesus' divinity.

The rest of your post is another evasive non sequitur.

So, are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers and bureaucrats actually involved in the arrest, sentencing and execution of Jesus must have worshipped him as a god for an historical Jesus to have existed?

I would also like to see your answer to this dejudge.

Something tells me you will just avoid it again, though.

 

[dejudge]

Paul was a wanted man in the NT. Paul was wanted in Damascus.

How did a wanted man who boasted about and documented his own escape from Damascus manage to elude the Romans for over 17 years while publicly breaking the Laws of the Romans?

Damascus was not at that time in the Roman Empire. I think it was Gaius who ceded it to the Nabateans.

I am extremely happy that this matter has come up.

We now have more evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not really an historical account of Paul and the Jesus cult but a compilation of lies, forgeries and fiction.

In the NT, Saul/Paul is introduced as a Persecutor of those who believed Jesus was the Christ and was raised from the dead.

It is claimed there was a Great Persecution of the Church in Jerusalem and that Saul/Paul was going on a house to house campaign to eradicate the believers and had them put in prison.

At that time a character called Stephen was supposedly stoned to death for preaching about Jesus Christ and his clothes were left at the feet of Saul/Paul.

So, this implies the Roman authorities and the Jews were actively engaged in the eradication of the believers.

But, this Persecution happened AFTER Jesus was already dead, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

It was Simon with the power of the Holy Ghost who started telling people about the resurrection--not Paul.

Saul/Paul was a Persecutor.

Somehow on his way to Damascus to persecute believers, by a magical bright light Saul/Paul blacked out and became blind for three days and he was converted.

Saul/Paul started to preach about the resurrected Jesus.

Saul/Paul now HIMSELF would be Persecuted.

Saul/Paul is wanted in Damascus-- A Garrison has been sent by the Governor to have Paul arrested.

The Pauline story is exposed as a complete fabrication.

If Paul goes back to the Jerusalem preaching about the resurrected Jesus Christ his own life must be in danger.

The Jews are probably going to have Paul arrested and stone him to death like they did to Stephen.

1. There was a Great Persecution in Jerusalem at the time of Paul.

2. Paul was sent by the Jerusalem authorities to persecute believers in Damascus for preaching Christ resurrected.

3. Paul escapes arrest and goes to Jerusalem as a beliver

4. Paul is known by the Jerusalem authorities.

5. Paul is a dead duck.


How in the world can Paul go back to Jerusalem as a known believer?

How can Paul be seen in Jerusalem preaching Christ resurrected?

The Jerusalem authorities are most likely going to stone him to death, or have him crucified him or throw him in prison.


1. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem the very same day he publicly claimed he was Christ and the Son of God.

2. Stephen was stoned to death in Jerusalem for preaching about Christ.

3. James was executed in Jerusalem by Herod for preaching Christ.

4. Peter was arrested in Jerusalem to be executed but he magically escaped.


If Paul escapes from Damascus and ends up in Jerusalem he must have been in hiding because the Jerusalem authorities would be waiting for him dead or alive.

Acts 8

And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts of the Apostles and the entire Pauline Corpus are not historical accounts.

They are bogus and composed no earlier than c 180 CE.

The HJ argument is hopelessly dead.

The entire NT is a compilation of forgeries, fiction and every single author is unknown.

 

[Brainache]

I am extremely happy that this matter has come up.

We now have more evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not really an historical account of Paul and the Jesus cult but a compilation of lies, forgeries and fiction.

In the NT, Saul/Paul is introduced as a Persecutor of those who believed Jesus was the Christ and was raised from the dead.

It is claimed there was a Great Persecution of the Church in Jerusalem and that Saul/Paul was going on a house to house campaign to eradicate the believers and had them put in prison.

At that time a character called Stephen was supposedly stoned to death for preaching about Jesus Christ and his clothes were left at the feet of Saul/Paul.

So, this implies the Roman authorities and the Jews were actively engaged in the eradication of the believers.

But, this Persecution happened AFTER Jesus was already dead, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

It was Simon with the power of the Holy Ghost who started telling people about the resurrection--not Paul.

Saul/Paul was a Persecutor.

Somehow on his way to Damascus to persecute believers, by a magical bright light Saul/Paul blacked out and became blind for three days and he was converted.

Saul/Paul started to preach about the resurrected Jesus.

Saul/Paul now HIMSELF would be Persecuted.

Saul/Paul is wanted in Damascus-- A Garrison has been sent by the Governor to have Paul arrested.

The Pauline story is exposed as a complete fabrication.

If Paul goes back to the Jerusalem preaching about the resurrected Jesus Christ his own life must be in danger.

The Jews are probably going to have Paul arrested and stone him to death like they did to Stephen.

1. There was a Great Persecution in Jerusalem at the time of Paul.

2. Paul was sent by the Jerusalem authorities to persecute believers in Damascus for preaching Christ resurrected.

3. Paul escapes arrest and goes to Jerusalem as a beliver

4. Paul is known by the Jerusalem authorities.

5. Paul is a dead duck.


How in the world can Paul go back to Jerusalem as a known believer?

How can Paul be seen in Jerusalem preaching Christ resurrected?

The Jerusalem authorities are most likely going to stone him to death, or have him crucified him or throw him in prison.


1. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem the very same day he publicly claimed he was Christ and the Son of God.

2. Stephen was stoned to death in Jerusalem for preaching about Christ.

3. James was executed in Jerusalem by Herod for preaching Christ.

4. Peter was arrested in Jerusalem to be executed but he magically escaped.


If Paul escapes from Damascus and ends up in Jerusalem he must have been in hiding because the Jerusalem authorities would be waiting for him dead or alive.

Acts 8

Acts of the Apostles and the entire Pauline Corpus are not historical accounts.

They are bogus and composed no earlier than c 180 CE.

The HJ argument is hopelessly dead.

The entire NT is a compilation of forgeries, fiction and every single author is unknown.

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

You're funny.

 

[Belz...]

I am extremely happy that this matter has come up.

We now have more evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not really an historical account of Paul and the Jesus cult but a compilation of lies, forgeries and fiction.

In the NT, Saul/Paul is introduced as a Persecutor of those who believed Jesus was the Christ and was raised from the dead.

It is claimed there was a Great Persecution of the Church in Jerusalem and that Saul/Paul was going on a house to house campaign to eradicate the believers and had them put in prison.

At that time a character called Stephen was supposedly stoned to death for preaching about Jesus Christ and his clothes were left at the feet of Saul/Paul.

So, this implies the Roman authorities and the Jews were actively engaged in the eradication of the believers.

But, this Persecution happened AFTER Jesus was already dead, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

It was Simon with the power of the Holy Ghost who started telling people about the resurrection--not Paul.

Saul/Paul was a Persecutor.

Somehow on his way to Damascus to persecute believers, by a magical bright light Saul/Paul blacked out and became blind for three days and he was converted.

Saul/Paul started to preach about the resurrected Jesus.

Saul/Paul now HIMSELF would be Persecuted.

Saul/Paul is wanted in Damascus-- A Garrison has been sent by the Governor to have Paul arrested.

The Pauline story is exposed as a complete fabrication.

If Paul goes back to the Jerusalem preaching about the resurrected Jesus Christ his own life must be in danger.

The Jews are probably going to have Paul arrested and stone him to death like they did to Stephen.

1. There was a Great Persecution in Jerusalem at the time of Paul.

2. Paul was sent by the Jerusalem authorities to persecute believers in Damascus for preaching Christ resurrected.

3. Paul escapes arrest and goes to Jerusalem as a beliver

4. Paul is known by the Jerusalem authorities.

5. Paul is a dead duck.


How in the world can Paul go back to Jerusalem as a known believer?

How can Paul be seen in Jerusalem preaching Christ resurrected?

The Jerusalem authorities are most likely going to stone him to death, or have him crucified him or throw him in prison.


1. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem the very same day he publicly claimed he was Christ and the Son of God.

2. Stephen was stoned to death in Jerusalem for preaching about Christ.

3. James was executed in Jerusalem by Herod for preaching Christ.

4. Peter was arrested in Jerusalem to be executed but he magically escaped.


If Paul escapes from Damascus and ends up in Jerusalem he must have been in hiding because the Jerusalem authorities would be waiting for him dead or alive.

Acts 8

Acts of the Apostles and the entire Pauline Corpus are not historical accounts.

They are bogus and composed no earlier than c 180 CE.

The HJ argument is hopelessly dead.

The entire NT is a compilation of forgeries, fiction and every single author is unknown.

Christ, man, use paragraphs.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Christ, man, use paragraphs.

If he's a chat-bot, he must be running on a VIC-20.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Dejudge, are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers and bureaucrats actually involved in the arrest, sentencing and execution of Jesus must have worshipped him as a god for an historical Jesus to have existed?

 

[dejudge]

Christ, man, use paragraphs.

Christ is a myth. He can't help you.

You posted only four words. Please, It appears you're lost for words.

 

[Belz...]

Christ is a myth. He can't help you.

You posted only four words. Please, It appears you're lost for words.

My post was short and to the point: learn to use paragraphs.

As usual you are unable to address the content of what people tell you, because you have no argument or counter. Don't worry, I'm not surprised.

 

[DOC]

I am extremely happy that this matter has come up.

We now have more evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not really an historical account of Paul and the Jesus cult but a compilation of lies, forgeries and fiction.

Arguments by assertion.

In the NT, Saul/Paul is introduced as a Persecutor of those who believed Jesus was the Christ and was raised from the dead.

It is claimed there was a Great Persecution of the Church in Jerusalem and that Saul/Paul was going on a house to house campaign to eradicate the believers and had them put in prison.

At that time a character called Stephen was supposedly stoned to death for preaching about Jesus Christ and his clothes were left at the feet of Saul/Paul.

So, this implies the Roman authorities and the Jews were actively engaged in the eradication of the believers.

But, this Persecution happened AFTER Jesus was already dead, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

Jesus' life was in danger before the crucifixion also, as was the life of John the Baptist who was executed.

It was Simon with the power of the Holy Ghost who started telling people about the resurrection--not Paul.

This is false, Paul did talk of a resurrection.

Romans 8:11

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Saul/Paul was a Persecutor.

Somehow on his way to Damascus to persecute believers, by a magical bright light Saul/Paul blacked out and became blind for three days and he was converted.

Saul/Paul started to preach about the resurrected Jesus.

Saul/Paul now HIMSELF would be Persecuted.

Saul/Paul is wanted in Damascus-- A Garrison has been sent by the Governor to have Paul arrested.

The Pauline story is exposed as a complete fabrication.

Argument by assertion.

If Paul goes back to the Jerusalem preaching about the resurrected Jesus Christ his own life must be in danger.

The Jews are probably going to have Paul arrested and stone him to death like they did to Stephen.

They don't have that power over a Roman citizen in Roman occupied Judea. Paul was a Roman citizen. Acts 22 talks a lot about Paul's Roman citizenship. http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Conversation-Roman-Tribune

All of this material about Paul's citizenship (by Luke) seems unlikely to be a made up story.

1. There was a Great Persecution in Jerusalem at the time of Paul.

2. Paul was sent by the Jerusalem authorities to persecute believers in Damascus for preaching Christ resurrected.

3. Paul escapes arrest and goes to Jerusalem as a beliver

4. Paul is known by the Jerusalem authorities.

5. Paul is a dead duck.

Once again, not if he is a Roman citizen as he was.

How in the world can Paul go back to Jerusalem as a known believer?

How can Paul be seen in Jerusalem preaching Christ resurrected?...

The Jerusalem authorities are most likely going to stone him to death, or have him crucified him or throw him in prison.

He was thrown in prison, but since he was a Roman citizen, he was allowed to plead his case in Rome.

1. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem the very same day he publicly claimed he was Christ and the Son of God.

Source? But even if true it doesn't mean he is not who he said he was.

2. Stephen was stoned to death in Jerusalem for preaching about Christ.

3. James was executed in Jerusalem by Herod for preaching Christ.

4. Peter was arrested in Jerusalem to be executed but he magically escaped.


If Paul escapes from Damascus and ends up in Jerusalem he must have been in hiding because the Jerusalem authorities would be waiting for him dead or alive.

Argument by assertion

Acts 8

Acts of the Apostles and the entire Pauline Corpus are not historical accounts.

They are bogus and composed no earlier than c 180 CE.

The HJ argument is hopelessly dead.

The entire NT is a compilation of forgeries, fiction and every single author is unknown.

Arguments by Assertion

 

[Belz...]

Something's very wrong when DOC is schooling you.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Christ is a myth. He can't help you.

You posted only four words. Please, It appears you're lost for words.

You probably shouldn't assert that someone is at a loss for words immediately after a post containing a question that you are clearly avoiding.

 

[dejudge]

I am extremely happy that this matter has come up.

We now have more evidence that the Pauline Corpus is not really an historical account of Paul and the Jesus cult but a compilation of lies, forgeries and fiction.

Arguments by assertion.

You just made a baseless assertion.

You don't know what an argument by assertion is.

The HJ argument is an argument by assertion since they cannot present any evidence from antiquity.

They ASSERT an obscure HJ is plausible --that is all they do day after day.

It was Simon with the power of the Holy Ghost who started telling people about the resurrection--not Paul.

This is false, Paul did talk of a resurrection.

You have no idea of or forget what I wrote. I was specifically dealing with "Chronology".

Simon Peter started preaching that Jesus was raised from the dead BEFORE Saul/Paul in the NT.

In the Pauline Corpus the Pauline writer admitted he was the LAST to be seen of the resurrected Jesus.

Paul claimed he persecuted those before his own conversion who preached the same thing that he began to teach later. See Galatians 1.

The Pauline story is total fiction.

Paul would have either been stoned to death, crucified or imprisoned when he returned to Jerusalem after escaping from the TROOPS of soldiers in Damascus.

Believers were being KILLED and imprisoned in Jerusalem at the same time Saul/Paul was converted.

Saul/Paul himself was on his way to capture more victims in Dasmascus when he was converted by a bright light.


Acts 22

4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness , and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished .

Saul/Paul claimed he consented to the KILLING of Stephen and beat and imprisoned people who believed in Jesus.


Acts 22

19 And I said , Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed , I also was standing by , and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Saul/Paul would be a Dead Duck as soon as he returned the Jerusalem.

The Jerusalem authorities sent Saul/Paul to seek, capture and bring back for punishment those who believed in Jesus.

Saul/Paul became a Believer Himself.

The Jerusalem authorities are WAITING for Saul/Paul.

They are either going to KILL him or put him in prison.

The Jerusalem authorities KILLED Jesus.

The Jerusalem authorities KILLED Stephen.

What are the Jerusalem authorities going to do with Paul after he ESCAPES from the Damascus authorities and ends up in Jerusalem as a BELIEVER in Jesus who was raised from the dead?

Saul/Paul as a Believer in Jerusalem is going to get his BUTT kicked and put in prison, or his head cut off, or stoned to death, or crucified or hanged on a Tree.

Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus are historically and theologically constipated.

The NT is really a compilation of forgeries, fiction and historical constipation.

I really have no idea why such a monstrous source of fiction is used for the biography of an obscure HJ.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Dejudge, are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers and bureaucrats actually involved in the arrest, sentencing and execution of Jesus must have worshipped him as a god for an historical Jesus to have existed?

Are you at a loss for words?

 

[DOC]

You just made a baseless assertion.

You don't know what an argument by assertion is.

The HJ argument is an argument by assertion since they cannot present any evidence from antiquity.

They ASSERT an obscure HJ is plausible --that is all they do day after day.






You have no idea of or forget what I wrote. I was specifically dealing with "Chronology".

Simon Peter started preaching that Jesus was raised from the dead BEFORE Saul/Paul in the NT.

In the Pauline Corpus the Pauline writer admitted he was the LAST to be seen of the resurrected Jesus.

Paul claimed he persecuted those before his own conversion who preached the same thing that he began to teach later. See Galatians 1.

The Pauline story is total fiction.

Paul would have either been stoned to death, crucified or imprisoned when he returned to Jerusalem after escaping from the TROOPS of soldiers in Damascus.

Believers were being KILLED and imprisoned in Jerusalem at the same time Saul/Paul was converted.

Saul/Paul himself was on his way to capture more victims in Dasmascus when he was converted by a bright light.


Acts 22

Saul/Paul claimed he consented to the KILLING of Stephen and beat and imprisoned people who believed in Jesus.


Acts 22


Saul/Paul would be a Dead Duck as soon as he returned the Jerusalem.

The Jerusalem authorities sent Saul/Paul to seek, capture and bring back for punishment those who believed in Jesus.

Saul/Paul became a Believer Himself.

The Jerusalem authorities are WAITING for Saul/Paul.

They are either going to KILL him or put him in prison.

The Jerusalem authorities KILLED Jesus.

The Jerusalem authorities KILLED Stephen.

What are the Jerusalem authorities going to do with Paul after he ESCAPES from the Damascus authorities and ends up in Jerusalem as a BELIEVER in Jesus who was raised from the dead?

Saul/Paul as a Believer in Jerusalem is going to get his BUTT kicked and put in prison, or his head cut off, or stoned to death, or crucified or hanged on a Tree.

Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus are historically and theologically constipated.

The NT is really a compilation of forgeries, fiction and historical constipation.

I really have no idea why such a monstrous source of fiction is used for the biography of an obscure HJ.

So some of the Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Paul, so what. They wanted to kill Jesus too, and eventually did by their appeals to the Romans who carried out the execution of Jesus. What concisely is your point?

 

[DOC]

...The HJ argument is an argument by assertion since they cannot present any evidence from antiquity.

They ASSERT an obscure HJ is plausible --that is all they do day after day...

If what you said is true, one has to wonder why Bart Ehrman says Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book, and that he does not know of any biblical historian who teaches at a major university who does not believe Jesus existed.

 

[Belz...]

Arguments by assertion.

You just made a baseless assertion.

This is going to be awesome.

 

[Belz...]

They ASSERT an obscure HJ is plausible --that is all they do day after day.

I think you are confusing "plausible" with "proven". They do both start with the same letter, I'll give you that.

If what you said is true, one has to wonder why Bart Ehrman says Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book

That would be because he's wrong.

 

[Foster Zygote]

This is going to be awesome.

I'll make the popcorn.

 

[Brainache]

I'll make the popcorn.

I'll mix the Margaritas...