[Merged] Immortality & Bayesian Statistics

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Ladewig said:
I am unsure why you think it beats oblivion, but far more importantly: Would your looping self really enjoy eternity knowing that billions of people will forever live lives of crushing poverty in misogynistic, bigoted societies? Isn't that An exceptionally high price to pay?
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To be fair, only people using the time machine would relive their lives. For others, there would be no repetition.

Problem is, if there is no memory, why bother? Just to be able to say "I will continue to exist"?

I recall reading about someone discussing the idea of an afterlife saying "I would rather go to Hell than cease to exist."

The idea that the time travelers can ask "how many times have we done this already?" is interesting.
 
Jabba said:
Squeegee,
- Could be -- but, I'd still enjoy it.
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

At the risk of being accused of being contentious, how would your experience be different if you were doomed to repeat the same loop, over and over, with no memories of your previous iterations and no chance to change, or grow; than if you simply experienced the loop once, ant then faced oblivion?

How would you, personally, know the difference?

ETA: ninja-ed by Pixel42!
 
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Slowvehicle said:
At the risk of being accused of being contrary, perhaps you, personally, consider both "Jesus" and "immortality" "magical". Might you provide a source of anyone else using that term to describe either of those things?
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"If my boyfriend and I ever have a kid, we'll just be honest with it. We'll say that mommy is one of God's chosen people, and daddy believes that Jesus is magic!" - Sarah Silverman.
 
Slowvehicle said:
Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

At the risk of being accused of being contentious, how would your experience be different if you were doomed to repeat the same loop, over and over, with no memories of your previous iterations and no chance to change, or grow; than if you simply experienced the loop once, ant then faced oblivion?

How would you, personally, know the difference?

ETA: ninja-ed by Pixel42!
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As I already posted in this thread: Mr. Savage appears to be discussing a form of immortality where there is no memory of your previous selves or any gain in knowledge with each loop. Also. of course, our physical appearance will not repeat and your prior "lives" will not influence your present one in any way. Please correct me, Mr. Savage, if I am wrong about this.

This is a very poor form of immortality indeed! I prefer the standard model as Mr Savage defines it: at least half of my genes are repeated in my children, and I have some chance to influence their world outlook as they grow up. It is not immortality, but it is better than having my "soul," something that is not like me at all, being endlessly repeated.
 
Humots said:
I recall reading about someone discussing the idea of an afterlife saying "I would rather go to Hell than cease to exist."
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I see nothing wrong with that choice. As long as if one finds hell unbearable, one can then choose the cease-to-exist option.
 
Jabba said:
Pakeha,
- Both are considered "magical."
- In that section of my website, I try to explain why we should believe in Magic. Doing so, would support a belief in immortality as much as it would support a belief in Jesus.
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Jabba,
If you simply changed your assertion to
I have proved to my own satisfaction that immortality exists in some form and I am eligible to partake. This proof does not contain the types of evidence and hard logic that many self-admitted skeptics insist upon when the word "proof" is used. Instead it considers possibilities, probabilities, imaginings, and more things than are dreamt of in all your philosophies. The spark of the divine cannot be seen by all, but to some it provides enough light to make out the edges of a path. A path I intend to follow. Forever.​

then the thread could end and die a natural death.
 
Slowvehicle said:
Good morning, Mr. Savage!

At the risk of being accused of being contrary, perhaps you, personally, consider both "Jesus" and "immortality" "magical". Might you provide a source of anyone else using that term to describe either of those things?

Are you, perhaps, confusing "magic" with "miracles"?

Are you, instead, being determinedly anti-reality?

I have to say, it still seems asif you are workig yourself up to claiming that we should "believe" in "immortality" precisely because there is no evidence.
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Slowvehicle,
- Do you believe in "free will."
 
Jabba said:
Slowvehicle,
- Do you believe in "free will."
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage! Thank you kindly for responding to my post.

I hope you will not think me unkind, or unfriendly, if (given the confusions your idiosyncratic definitions have caused in the past) I ask you to define what you mean by free will--or, for that matter, what you mean by "free will".

I would truly enjoy pursuing this with you, but not unless and until you commit to a specific question.

What do you mean by the term, free will, and what do you mean by the same term, protected by scare quotes?

I do hope you will answer again.
 
Slowvehicle said:
Good morning, Mr. Savage! I do hope your Tuesday is going well.

At the risk of having this deteriorate into a film critique, one of the reasons Groundhog Day works as a movie, but does not work as a practical example of "looped immortality" (for want of a better term) is that Phil Connors learns from, and is changed by, the multiple iterations of the looped day. As such, the movie bears no resemblance to your scheme of multiple iterations of the "same" "soul" in unconnected experiences joined together by nothing more than the undefined and undefinable "sameness" you invoke to comfort yourself facing oblivion.

Admittedly, watching even Murray and McDowell go through infinite unchanging iterations of the same day would have made a terrible movie; OTH, as it stands, the sequential development of Connors' character makes it a terrible example of the kind of immortality you appear to be selling.

I wonder that you appear to have glossed over a friendly suggestion I made a bit earlier. As much trouble as you are having trying to stack the semantic deck in order to make sure that what you want to call immortality is the only logical conclusion (foundering, as you have seen, on the problems of assuming the consequent, special pleading, circular reasoning, careless definitions, and your continued struggles with ~A, to name but a few), why not consider working the problem from the other end?

I suggest that, instead of trying to define your claim into existence, you present all of the evidence you have for the existence of your claim. The problem with the apophatic approach is that you end up claiming that some postulate or another is "true" precisely because there is no evidence. Consider supporting your assertions that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal", with evidence: practical, empirical, physical evidence. When you produce such evidence, it can be judged on its merits. Until you produce such evidence, you have, at best, produced or described a gedankenexperiment, which will have to be supported by evidence in order to be accepted.

Why not start with the evidence first?
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Slowvehicle,
- I think I love Andy McDowell, so I'd hardly care if the movie just kept repeating the same story...
- Otherwise, which specific claim do you mean?
 
Jabba said:
Slowvehicle,
- I think I love Andy McDowell, so I'd hardly care if the movie just kept repeating the same story...
- Otherwise, which specific claim do you mean?
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Jabba said:
- I think that I can essentially prove immortality using Bayesian statistics.- If this belongs in a different thread, or has already been done, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll present my case here.
--- Jabba
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:rolleyes:

Dude, you're claiming to be freaking immortal. Haven't you noticed that this is your claim?
 
Jabba said:
Slowvehicle,
- I think I love Andy McDowell, so I'd hardly care if the movie just kept repeating the same story...
- Otherwise, which specific claim do you mean?
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Good afternoon, Mr. Savage!

I hope you are not actually confused, and are just making a bit of sport at my expense.

If you are serious, I intended to casually reference what seems to me to be the core of your claim, that is, that the "soul" exists, and is immortal.

What evidence have you to offer for the existence, not to mention the immortality, of the soul?

I anticipate your answer, and your answer to my request for clarification about your post immediately prior.
 
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Q: Who can doubt the horror of immortality?

A: Someone who's never seen a Jabba thread.
 
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Agatha said:
Ladewig said:
I am unsure why you think it beats oblivion, but far more importantly: Would your looping self really enjoy eternity knowing that billions of people will forever live lives of crushing poverty in misogynistic, bigoted societies? Isn't that An exceptionally high price to pay?
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Or an abused child having to relive the abuse over and over and over again? Or someone in constant pain due to illness or injury having to suffer that pain for all eternity? Sounds like a terrible thing to me, and it sure would not beat oblivion for those people.
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Or having to relive one's mental illness over and over again. I have to wonder, even in the reincarnation model of immortality, would something like the potential for mental illness carry over? It's a defining characteristic of one's mind, personality, and consciousness, after all.



You were in oblivion for billions of years before you were born and did not care. What makes you think you'll care after you're dead?
 
Jabba said:
Slowvehicle,

- Otherwise, which specific claim do you mean?
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Slowvehicle might mean the claim he paraphrased two sentences after the one you highlighted

Consider supporting your assertions that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal", with evidence: practical, empirical, physical evidence.
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