Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[NancyS]

that's a lie. The real PR Machine has been "The Machine" and "harryrag". And their fake wikipedia type site. The one they've sent to literally 1000's of Journalists. themurderofmeredithkercher.com sick. And their 3 hate cult sites, the 2 pmf's and the ridiculous True Justice for Meredith Kercher which is merely an excuse to obsess over Meredith AND Amanda. They're just a bunch of sad trolls, haters, people with no other options apparently, in their lives. and

It's sad that these are the type of people supporting the Kercher's. Do they even have any idea of how "out there" the people who support them are? There's one guy who literally claims to be God. Another guy who writes books about Assasin's and it's all a complete lie, he was in the band in the Army, and he's threatened Amanda and needs medical help. Another one who needs medical help is a Child Neurologist who thinks we outed him when in fact he outed himSELF when I merely went on FB, found out who his brother was and asked him to please have his brother stop harassing us. Because he was. It became obvious by his response that he's not even in touch with his family who demanded he stop. This is the one who tried to strangle his Psychologist and when pulled away went back to try to attack her again. He is still just as obsessed, but more behind the scenes (yeah, right) working away on their fake wikipedia type site. Then we have the guy who stalked a Ballerina trying to hook up with her and even admitting it in his (over 500) emails to her...and blackmailed her. These are the type of people who have encouraged this family in their thinking. And yes, still to this day they claim Steve Moore is a paid shill. You are very incorrect on this. And on any of this PR accusation.

The family of Meredith said (in almost every single interview) that they simply could not keep up with the PR Machine they were having to fight. Whaat? They were simply fighting truth, not some PR Machine. And meanwhile they were the one's with the real PR Machine. It's very sad to me. They're choosing their own pain.

Btw, the Italian's have all figured out they're innocent. Pretty much everyone has. The Journalists who accidentally thought that the nutter's fake wiki site was real, they've all come to the realization that they were had and are quite embarrassed I know this for a fact by some of them. Very embarrassed, and they should be. Shame on these quacks. They need to be sued by someone who has the emotional strength to have to be around them at all. Oh, then there's Peggy, who is so jealous and obsessed with the family and literally counts their shrubs and is more paranoid than anyone I know, and a jealous petty woman. Oh, and they're all very foul mouthed. So classy, these are the people who support Meredith's family. Well, I would love to be able to support the family. But they are wrongly victimizing the wrong people and I will fiercely defend this injustice to the end. Another words, the gloves are off on this end.

Very well said Michelle - you have a group of people creating a fake Wikipedia site full of false information, which was created after the lies were removed from the real Wikipedia site - and they are then sending the fake wiki to every journalist possible. If that's not a PR supertanker, I don't what is

 

[Machiavelli]

Mach, as I google the issue of the control room I keep coming up with some ambiguous accounts from someone named Peter Quennelli and another guy named Yummi. .... Have you asked Giobbi about it? I understand he testified to being in the control room.

Maybe it's better if you read his testimony.

 

[anglolawyer]

Giobbi, pg 191, 29th May 2009, http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...-May-29-Sbardella-Politi-Codispoti-Giobbi.pdf

In the same hearing, Giobbi does also say that he was in the control room at some point:

Ghirga: I remember that when Amanda was taken for the interrogation by others, you were in the control room with Profazio.
Giobbi: I was with Profazio in the control room the evening of the arrests
Ghirga: So you weren’t present in the moment of the interrogation.
Giobbi: this being the evening?
Ghirga: No, here we have arrived at 5 in the evening, when you called both of them for investigative strategy
Giobbi: 5 in the evening
Ghirga: so you weren’t present when Amanda was interrogated?
Giobbi: No

Note: I'm translating sommarie informazioni testimoniali (sit) as interrogation for ease of reading.

Thanks Teddy

 

[Mary_H]

Nencini is not under investigation for misconduct.

There is a request to open an investigation. This is AK/ RS's defense which is normal. This is also political. The right (remember Berlusconi) will of course make a big deal about this.<snip>

This is something that has always puzzled me about this case, and maybe even about Italy -- the magistrates and judges are considered to be politically left of center. I think Machiavelli, who loves the Italian justice system, identifies as a communist, right?

Yet the pro-guilt argument is pro-authoritarian, anti-women and anti-science. These are the opposite of what are considered politically liberal values in our system.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is illogical. I don't have to demonstrate anything. Giobbi says what needs to be said in his testimony, that's all he says, and what he says is that she was not in any control room at the time of Knox's confession. It is also evident that he is using the term 'control room' as a colloquialism, without any implication about video equipment, as you can deduce even from Teddy's translation of another snippet.

I am actually going to agree with you on this one (surprise). I don't see in Giobbi's testimony that he indicates he was watching the interrogations and the implication is that he was not.

 

[MichaelB]

Giobbi, pg 191, 29th May 2009, http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...-May-29-Sbardella-Politi-Codispoti-Giobbi.pdf

In the same hearing, Giobbi does also say that he was in the control room at some point:

Ghirga: I remember that when Amanda was taken for the interrogation by others, you were in the control room with Profazio.
Giobbi: I was with Profazio in the control room the evening of the arrests
Ghirga: So you weren’t present in the moment of the interrogation.
Giobbi: this being the evening?
Ghirga: No, here we have arrived at 5 in the evening, when you called both of them for investigative strategy
Giobbi: 5 in the evening
Ghirga: so you weren’t present when Amanda was interrogated?
Giobbi: No

Note: I'm translating sommarie informazioni testimoniali (sit) as interrogation for ease of reading.

Interesting. So there was a control room. Reminds me of Get Smart for some reason.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
Yet the pro-guilt argument is pro-authoritarian, anti-women and anti-science. (...)

Not at all. The victim is a woman; Novelli is a scientist; arrogance, racism and bullism was a feature of the US media campaign.

 

[Kestrel]

Please do not expect me to consider Candace Dempsey as a source. If your basis is Candace Dempsey then you are having a wrong approach from the very roots.

Anyone who believes Amanda is innocent is disregarded by the guilters.

 

[NancyS]

Unfortunately I think Steve could have been far more effective in summarizing what went wrong in this case.

Callan is incredulous that all these judges would collaborate to railroad innocent people, if the crime is as simple as Steve says. Why would they do that?

The answer is not that Guede was a police informant.

The answer is that the police made a grandiose public accusation before they knew what had happened, before they knew about Guede or the evidence proving he was the real killer. They didn't want to admit they were wrong.

This has lots of precedents, starting with the Nicarico case in Illinois. The police caught the guy who did it, Brian Dugan. They nailed him with DNA and he confessed. He was a serial killer who acted alone in his other murders.

But by that time, they had already accused Hernandez and Cruz and they didn't want to admit they were wrong, so they hung on for dear life with a crazy theory in which Hernandez and Cruz were Dugan's accomplices in the Nicarico murder.

The David Camm case is a more recent example. Why would the police and prosecutor continue to railroad a white ex-cop, even after DNA led them to the black guy who really did it?

Because they had already publicly accused him and they didn't want to admit they were wrong.

This goes all the way back to the Dreyfus Affair. Esterhazy? Who's he? He's the scoundrel and con artist, desperate for money, who really committed the act of espionage for which Dreyfus was charged. The entire French army command went into full-on conspiracy mode. They suppressed evidence against Esterhazy and acquitted him in a secret trial. Why? Because they had already accused Dreyfus and they didn't want to admit they were wrong.

I agree, I think people need to step away from criticising Italy as it will just make people dig their heels in. I think people need to be clear that miscarriages of justice happen everywhere - and initially happen because of some bias against the accused, which convinces the police of their guilt, which leads to collecting evidence to try and prove guilt, rather than to solve the crime

In this case, they convinced themselves Amanda was involved - most likely due to cultural differences in the way she behaved, which wasn't helped by Raffaele being a bit of a habitual smoker who could barely remember what he had for breakfast. When they found all the evidence pointed clearly to another man, they just couldn't let go of the theory - and due to the vicious media campaign against Amanda, she had been convicted in the hearts and minds of the Italian people long before the first trial began

I think people also need to know more about Rudy Guede. That he is a troubled young man who barely knew Amanda and was a known burglar who had broken into properties in exactly the same way that the cottage was broken into. I would keep hammering this point home - claiming the break-in was staged, when Guede has previously broken into properties in EXACTLY the same way, is just ludicrous

 

[Teddy2007]

I think I know Italian a little better than you; cabina di regia is a colloquialism, and at least in one instance it is evident that Giobbi uses the expression with this meaning; above all, you need to read the whole of Giobbi's testimony. Like where he explains very clearly that he did not witness to Knox's 'confession'.

I'm sure you do, but I'm not dishonest, and corrected the meaning once I saw the full context. Note, however, that there was a control room in the Police Station, and Giobbi was sitting in it at some point. He testified that he was not present at the SIT and didn't see it, although I'm not quite sure how he was able to offer guidance to his staff if he wasn't watching first hand the goings on.

 

[MichaelB]

The quotes don't really bear out the lurid tone of the article.

But I don't doubt this has put a wall between them. Their interests have diverged. He's only in this because they are out to get her, and he damn well knows it. But he is the one who is within their grasp. Now is a great time for him to distance himself from her, if he knows what is good for him.

I listened to the 360 interview again and at 2.44 he says "I'm not saying Amanda is responsible for all this situation"

http://us.cnn.com/2014/02/03/world/europe/italy-knox-sollecito/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Diocletus]

Nencini is not under investigation for misconduct.

There is a request to open an investigation. This is AK/ RS's defense which is normal. This is also political. The right (remember Berlusconi) will of course make a big deal about this.

But what does the president of Tuscany's National Association of Magistrates have to say about all of this?:

""In ogni caso - ha aggiunto Dominijanni - non mi sembra che il presidente Nencini abbia commentato la sentenza del processo Meredith entrando nel merito della decisione. Ha solo manifestato uno stato d'animo con riguardo a un procedimento complesso. Per questo non ritengo che possa subire un procedimento disciplinare"."

http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2014/02/02/1019791-processo-meredith-nencini-anm.shtml

The report that I saw said that the justice minister has commenced some process. What that process is I have no idea. I assume it's not a coffee klatch.

 

[anglolawyer]

snip
Please do not expect me to consider Candace Dempsey as a source. If your basis is Candace Dempsey then you are having a wrong approach from the very roots.

Well at least Strozzi cited a source, whether you like it or not. I am still waiting to hear your source for saying Mignini showed up at 2.00 a.m. Three strikes and you're out, Mach. Please answer this time or we can file your unsourced claim under W for wastepaper bin.

In fact Follain an unimpeachable source who had access to Mignini, strongly suggests he showed up earlier. Here is the passage (location 1952):



Note he goes to bed at 10.30, like a good boy, falls asleep immediately and half an hour later, thus at 11.00, he was asked to go to the police station after Profazio had 'launched another round of questioning' (interesting choice of phrase). Did it really take him three hours to get there as Mach's 2.00 a.m. unsourced arrival time suggests (usefully keeping Mignini squeaky clean as Amanda had signed her 'confession 15 minutes beforehand)?

So, should we junk Follain as a source along with Dempsey? Or Mach?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Does anyone know if these quotes are accurate? It sounds like they've stopped speaking and he's doing his own thing from now on. It's to late to a deal though post conviction you'd think.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...-appear-courtroom-negatively-influenced-jury/

While he was in the courtroom for some of the proceedings, Sollecito turned on his former lover, saying Knox’s decision to remain in the United States may have influenced the verdict.

“I don’t know. It’s — it can be possible, actually it can be. But it was her decision, and actually another person, so I made my decision by myself. I mean, I decided it completely by myself, as she did, she did the same.”

At one time very close, Sollicito said that he hasn’t spoken to Knox since the guilty verdict was handed down.

“Psychologically it’s not my priority. You can understand that this is something that’s about me now, more than, and about my family, my people who support me. So any kind of support between me and her in this moment there’s no, lift up.”

He also said his relationship with Knox has deteriorated over the years.

“Yeah, it was more supportive. I felt that I could have a shoulder on the other side. But now the situation, even if we are in the same kind of trial, my life and her life is very different, and things developed in a very different way.

If true, you can hardly blame Sollecito; even here he is pretty much the forgotten man.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The quotes don't really bear out the lurid tone of the article.

But I don't doubt this has put a wall between them. Their interests have diverged. He's only in this because they are out to get her, and he damn well knows it. But he is the one who is within their grasp. Now is a great time for him to distance himself from her, if he knows what is good for him.

I wonder if the notion that Italian justice is after Amanda rather than Sollecito will be of any comfort to him when he is sitting in jail, assuming of course their appeal to the Italian Supreme Court fails next year.

 

[Bill Williams]

Nencini is the coordinator of 'Magistratura Democratica' in Tuscany, that is the leftist Magistrate gropu. He is the person who filed a report for criminal defamantion against Berlusconi, that was declared inadmissible because Berlusconi was a Senator at the time. Indeed Nencini is a prominent enemy of Berlusconi and actions against him are obviously political.

This government action is quite a pretext and will go nowhere: the minister herself is not in a moral position for that, given that she was caught in a scandalous conflict of interest, plotting at the phone trying to get her friend out of prison - minister Cancellieri is the friend of the Ligresti family, and the political coordinator of her party is Benedetto Dalla Vedova, the brother of Carlo Dalla Vedova.

Machiavelli is confirming that judges in Italy get caught up in intra-politics, much like Hellmann observed after the ISC reversals in March 2013.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wonder if the notion that Italian justice is after Amanda rather than Sollecito will be of any comfort to him when he is sitting in jail, assuming of course their appeal to the Italian Supreme Court fails next year.

It will console him not one whit. For me, that was the tone of his CNN interview with Anderson Cooper yesterday.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well at least Strozzi cited a source, whether you like it or not. I am still waiting to hear your source for saying Mignini showed up at 2.00 a.m. Three strikes and you're out, Mach. Please answer this time or we can file your unsourced claim under W for wastepaper bin.

In fact Follain an unimpeachable source who had access to Mignini, strongly suggests he showed up earlier. Here is the passage (location 1952):

[qimg]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/cwismayer/ScreenShot2014-02-04at132949_zps15d6010a.png[/qimg]

Note he goes to bed at 10.30, like a good boy, falls asleep immediately and half an hour later, thus at 11.00, he was asked to go to the police station after Profazio had 'launched another round of questioning' (interesting choice of phrase). Did it really take him three hours to get there as Mach's 2.00 a.m. unsourced arrival time suggests (usefully keeping Mignini squeaky clean as Amanda had signed her 'confession 15 minutes beforehand)?

So, should we junk Follain as a source along with Dempsey? Or Mach?

I also wish to hear Machiavelli's source for the claim that "Knox wanted to issue a statement," at her interrogation. Mignini describes coming into a room where he intuited that the suspect wished to make a statement, and he would help her - but Mignini is clear that this was his action.....

Machiavelli will not answer, nor provide a source for his claim. Is Mignini lying or is Machiavelli?

 

[NancyS]

Does anyone know if Sollecito was stoned during his questioning? Has he ever admitted to smoking cannabis earlier in the day on Nov 5th? It would make his confusion over dates more understandable.

I was reading Bruce Perry's 'The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog' - and it has a chapter on the Satanic Ritual Abuse panic that was all over Texas in the 1990s and how much of this was caused by using techniques to create false memories and induce false confessions. It speaks in depth about how inaccurate memory is and how easy it is for someone to change your memories of an event. This led to a lot of innocent arrests and I thought it had some parallels with this case. It's a very interesting read

 

[Bill Williams]

Interesting. So there was a control room. Reminds me of Get Smart for some reason.

[qimg]http://tmsimg.com/showcards/v3/AllPhotos/183916/p183916_n17204_cc_v3_aa.jpg[/qimg]

However, Machiavelli is using his legendary "nuancing" to suggest that Italian word is not "control room".

If it walks like a dick, and quacks like a duck....

On another matter of the pejorative use of the term, "PR Campaign", Machiavelli's actions here are the only evidence of a PR Campaign which seeks to spin things out of existence.

How many times has Machiavelli argued here that something is not really what it is? Not THAT'S public relations spin.....