Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Rolfe]

Unfortunately I think Steve could have been far more effective in summarizing what went wrong in this case.

Callan is incredulous that all these judges would collaborate to railroad innocent people, if the crime is as simple as Steve says. Why would they do that?

The answer is not that Guede was a police informant.

The answer is that the police made a grandiose public accusation before they knew what had happened, before they knew about Guede or the evidence proving he was the real killer. They didn't want to admit they were wrong.

This has lots of precedents, starting with the Nicarico case in Illinois. The police caught the guy who did it, Brian Dugan. They nailed him with DNA and he confessed. He was a serial killer who acted alone in his other murders.

But by that time, they had already accused Hernandez and Cruz and they didn't want to admit they were wrong, so they hung on for dear life with a crazy theory in which Hernandez and Cruz were Dugan's accomplices in the Nicarico murder.

The David Camm case is a more recent example. Why would the police and prosecutor continue to railroad a white ex-cop, even after DNA led them to the black guy who really did it?

Because they had already publicly accused him and they didn't want to admit they were wrong.

This goes all the way back to the Dreyfus Affair. Esterhazy? Who's he? He's the scoundrel and con artist, desperate for money, who really committed the act of espionage for which Dreyfus was charged. The entire French army command went into full-on conspiracy mode. They suppressed evidence against Esterhazy and acquitted him in a secret trial. Why? Because they had already accused Dreyfus and they didn't want to admit they were wrong.

This is why I was so heartened by what happened in the Bristol murder (Joanna Yates). The police obviously thought Chris Jefferies was their man, but while they arrested him and detained him, they didn't go through an irrevocable "case closed" performance. Then when the evidence they subsequently gathered pointed elsewhere they were able to backtrack with some dignity intact, release Jefferies, and arrest Tabak.

Now the entire world knows that Chris Jefferies may have been rather eccentric, but he was entirely innocent and in fact is a perfectly nice guy. And at the same time he has taken the tabloids who dragged his reputation through the gutter for a six-figure sum.

Sometimes it really does work out for the best, and doesn't it just give you a nice warm glow. The police behaviour in that case should be a model for everyone - well, not the bit where they released Jefferies's details to the gutter press, but then that did at least enable him to supplement his retirement income rather nicely.

Rolfe.

 

[Teddy2007]

[2] (p191) T: i comportamenti li ho delineati, il signor Sollecito è stato diciamo a mio parere, perchè io non ho assistito, io come ho detto all’inizio, io ero una sorta di cabina di regia intermedia, cioè io e Profazio che erano quelli che conducevano di fatto le le indagine acquisivamo notizie dagli operatori e investigatori che materialmente stavano facendo i sit, però devo dire le urla di Amanda si sentono nel corridoio della Questura anche se la stanza è chiusa, il signor Sollecito non ha avuto lo stesso atteggiamento, un atteggiamento molto più signorile e pacato

[2] (p191) T: the behaviors I have outlined, Mr Sollecito was say in my opinion, because I have not seen, as I've said earlier, I was a kind of intermediate control room, that I Profazio and which were the ones that led to the investigation made ​​by the operators acquisivamo news and investigators who actually were doing the sit, but I have to say Amanda's screams heard in the hallway of the police station even if the room is closed, Mr Sollecito has not had the same attitude, a much more elegant and soft-spoken

OK, now that I have the context the meaning is different. I've never seen cabina di regia used in that way before, but I would translate that passage as follows:
2] (p191) T: the behaviors I have outlined, Mr Sollecito was let’s say in my opinion, because I was not present, as I've said earlier, I was a kind of an intermediate coordinator, that is, Profazio and I who were the ones who actually directed the investigation acquired updates from the operators and investigators that physically were doing the interrogations, however I have to say Amanda’s screams can be heard in the corridor of the Police Station even if the room is closed, Mr. Sollecito did not have the same behaviour, a behaviour much more elegant and calm.

 

[MichaelB]

Does anyone know if these quotes are accurate? It sounds like they've stopped speaking and he's doing his own thing from now on. It's to late to a deal though post conviction you'd think.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...-appear-courtroom-negatively-influenced-jury/

While he was in the courtroom for some of the proceedings, Sollecito turned on his former lover, saying Knox’s decision to remain in the United States may have influenced the verdict.

“I don’t know. It’s — it can be possible, actually it can be. But it was her decision, and actually another person, so I made my decision by myself. I mean, I decided it completely by myself, as she did, she did the same.”

At one time very close, Sollicito said that he hasn’t spoken to Knox since the guilty verdict was handed down.

“Psychologically it’s not my priority. You can understand that this is something that’s about me now, more than, and about my family, my people who support me. So any kind of support between me and her in this moment there’s no, lift up.”

He also said his relationship with Knox has deteriorated over the years.

“Yeah, it was more supportive. I felt that I could have a shoulder on the other side. But now the situation, even if we are in the same kind of trial, my life and her life is very different, and things developed in a very different way.

 

[Vibio]

But this is only talking about "video recording". I'd be comfortable if they had even audio recording. The have regularly and routinely at least using sound recordings of interrogation since the 1960s.

There really is no excuse not to have at least that.

"One of the most egregious technological omissions in the criminal justice is that police departments in New York are NOT required by law to video or audio record police interrogations on felony arrests"

"As of 2002 only two states – Alaska and Minnesota – required electronic recording of custodial interviews. Ten years later, in 2012 sixteen (16) states and the District of Columbia now require these recordings. A number of states – including New York – have bills pending requiring these recordings. But until the New York bill passes defendants charged with felonies in New York still are subject to outdated tactics and potentially inaccurate statements being taken from them. It still remains a game of he said, she said"

http://www.cmgesq.com/blog/police-interrogations-and-video-recording/

 

[MichaelB]

http://www.affaritaliani.it/cronache/il-giudice-del-processo-meredith040214.html

The First Board of CSM has unanimously decided 'to ask the Committee to chair the opening of a case on the judge Alessandro Nencini, President of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence on Thursday that gives' the last sentence to the murder of Meredith Kercher.

At the heart of the practice, the statements that the judge has released an interview with the newspaper published last Saturday, a few hours after a conviction for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, and thus well before the filing of the written judgment. Even the lay of the center of the Palace of the Marshals have prepared a document calling for the opening of a case to determine whether there are grounds for initiating a transfer of office to incompatibility '. Sara 'then the Executive Committee, whose next meeting and' set for Wednesday 'morning, before the plenum, to decide whether to authorize the opening of the file with the transmission of documents to the First Commission.

More at the link.

 

[Diocletus]

http://www.affaritaliani.it/cronache/il-giudice-del-processo-meredith040214.html

The First Board of CSM has unanimously decided 'to ask the Committee to chair the opening of a case on the judge Alessandro Nencini, President of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence on Thursday that gives' the last sentence to the murder of Meredith Kercher.

At the heart of the practice, the statements that the judge has released an interview with the newspaper published last Saturday, a few hours after a conviction for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, and thus well before the filing of the written judgment. Even the lay of the center of the Palace of the Marshals have prepared a document calling for the opening of a case to determine whether there are grounds for initiating a transfer of office to incompatibility '. Sara 'then the Executive Committee, whose next meeting and' set for Wednesday 'morning, before the plenum, to decide whether to authorize the opening of the file with the transmission of documents to the First Commission.

More at the link.

Is this dishonest idiot, Nencini, even considered to be competent to write a Motivation if he is actually under investigation for misconduct in the case? It seems illegitimate if he's even allowed to put his hands on the file again.

 

[anglolawyer]

OK, now that I have the context the meaning is different. I've never seen cabina di regia used in that way before, but I would translate that passage as follows:
2] (p191) T: the behaviors I have outlined, Mr Sollecito was let’s say in my opinion, because I was not present, as I've said earlier, I was a kind of an intermediate coordinator, that is, Profazio and I who were the ones who actually directed the investigation acquired updates from the operators and investigators that physically were doing the interrogations, however I have to say Amanda’s screams can be heard in the corridor of the Police Station even if the room is closed, Mr. Sollecito did not have the same behaviour, a behaviour much more elegant and calm.

From which transcript is this taken please? Or which hearing date?

 

[Machiavelli]

Really? I work here in Italy and have worked with audio/visual technicians. They manage audio and video from "la cabina di regia" as they call it.

I think I know Italian a little better than you; cabina di regia is a colloquialism, and at least in one instance it is evident that Giobbi uses the expression with this meaning; above all, you need to read the whole of Giobbi's testimony. Like where he explains very clearly that he did not witness to Knox's 'confession'.

 

[Machiavelli]

This strikes me as a distinction without a difference. How would 'control room' be all that different than a 'staff room' or directorate?

The video. There is no video in Giobbi's acount.

So how many hours was he waiting in that corridor and why?

Read his testimony.

 

[Vibio]

if he is actually under investigation for misconduct in the case...

Nencini is not under investigation for misconduct.

There is a request to open an investigation. This is AK/ RS's defense which is normal. This is also political. The right (remember Berlusconi) will of course make a big deal about this.

But what does the president of Tuscany's National Association of Magistrates have to say about all of this?:

""In ogni caso - ha aggiunto Dominijanni - non mi sembra che il presidente Nencini abbia commentato la sentenza del processo Meredith entrando nel merito della decisione. Ha solo manifestato uno stato d'animo con riguardo a un procedimento complesso. Per questo non ritengo che possa subire un procedimento disciplinare"."

http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2014/02/02/1019791-processo-meredith-nencini-anm.shtml

 

[Teddy2007]

From which transcript is this taken please? Or which hearing date?

Giobbi, pg 191, 29th May 2009, http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...-May-29-Sbardella-Politi-Codispoti-Giobbi.pdf

In the same hearing, Giobbi does also say that he was in the control room at some point:

Ghirga: I remember that when Amanda was taken for the interrogation by others, you were in the control room with Profazio.
Giobbi: I was with Profazio in the control room the evening of the arrests
Ghirga: So you weren’t present in the moment of the interrogation.
Giobbi: this being the evening?
Ghirga: No, here we have arrived at 5 in the evening, when you called both of them for investigative strategy
Giobbi: 5 in the evening
Ghirga: so you weren’t present when Amanda was interrogated?
Giobbi: No

Note: I'm translating sommarie informazioni testimoniali (sit) as interrogation for ease of reading.

 

[Machiavelli]

Are these the same financial reasons that allowed them to spend a fortune on their ridiculous cartoon?

They didn't spend anything for the cartoons. The cartoon was commissioned and paid by the Procura, not by the police.
And anyway, the cartoon expenses should be refunded by the two convicted perps.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>I saw a short clip on Anderson Cooper's website tonight. Raffaele was asked if he blamed Amanda for this mess, and he was careful not to say "no," as he has in the past. Perhaps he is finally learning how to be a good Italian.

I noticed that, too, Charlie; they showed that clip on the local news.

I also would not blame Raffaele for making some kind of deal to keep himself out of prison. Hopefully some savior will intervene before that becomes necessary.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Does anyone know if these quotes are accurate? It sounds like they've stopped speaking and he's doing his own thing from now on. It's to late to a deal though post conviction you'd think.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...-appear-courtroom-negatively-influenced-jury/

While he was in the courtroom for some of the proceedings, Sollecito turned on his former lover, saying Knox’s decision to remain in the United States may have influenced the verdict.

“I don’t know. It’s — it can be possible, actually it can be. But it was her decision, and actually another person, so I made my decision by myself. I mean, I decided it completely by myself, as she did, she did the same.”

At one time very close, Sollicito said that he hasn’t spoken to Knox since the guilty verdict was handed down.

“Psychologically it’s not my priority. You can understand that this is something that’s about me now, more than, and about my family, my people who support me. So any kind of support between me and her in this moment there’s no, lift up.”

He also said his relationship with Knox has deteriorated over the years.

“Yeah, it was more supportive. I felt that I could have a shoulder on the other side. But now the situation, even if we are in the same kind of trial, my life and her life is very different, and things developed in a very different way.

The quotes don't really bear out the lurid tone of the article.

But I don't doubt this has put a wall between them. Their interests have diverged. He's only in this because they are out to get her, and he damn well knows it. But he is the one who is within their grasp. Now is a great time for him to distance himself from her, if he knows what is good for him.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>And anyway, the cartoon expenses should be refunded by the two convicted perps.

Words fail me.

 

[Machiavelli]

[Nencini is not under investigation for misconduct.

There is a request to open an investigation. This is AK/ RS's defense which is normal. This is also political. The right (remember Berlusconi) will of course make a big deal about this. (...)

Nencini is the coordinator of 'Magistratura Democratica' in Tuscany, that is the leftist Magistrate gropu. He is the person who filed a report for criminal defamantion against Berlusconi, that was declared inadmissible because Berlusconi was a Senator at the time. Indeed Nencini is a prominent enemy of Berlusconi and actions against him are obviously political.

This government action is quite a pretext and will go nowhere: the minister herself is not in a moral position for that, given that she was caught in a scandalous conflict of interest, plotting at the phone trying to get her friend out of prison - minister Cancellieri is the friend of the Ligresti family, and the political coordinator of her party is Benedetto Dalla Vedova, the brother of Carlo Dalla Vedova.

 

[RoseMontague]

Nencini is not under investigation for misconduct.

There is a request to open an investigation. This is AK/ RS's defense which is normal. This is also political. The right (remember Berlusconi) will of course make a big deal about this.

But what does the president of Tuscany's National Association of Magistrates have to say about all of this?:

""In ogni caso - ha aggiunto Dominijanni - non mi sembra che il presidente Nencini abbia commentato la sentenza del processo Meredith entrando nel merito della decisione. Ha solo manifestato uno stato d'animo con riguardo a un procedimento complesso. Per questo non ritengo che possa subire un procedimento disciplinare"."

http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2014/02/02/1019791-processo-meredith-nencini-anm.shtml

Looks like he is giving his opinion that nothing will come of this. I guess we will have to wait and see. Thanks for the info.

 

[js202]

"One of the most egregious technological omissions in the criminal justice is that police departments in New York are NOT required by law to video or audio record police interrogations on felony arrests"

"As of 2002 only two states – Alaska and Minnesota – required electronic recording of custodial interviews. Ten years later, in 2012 sixteen (16) states and the District of Columbia now require these recordings. A number of states – including New York – have bills pending requiring these recordings. But until the New York bill passes defendants charged with felonies in New York still are subject to outdated tactics and potentially inaccurate statements being taken from them. It still remains a game of he said, she said"

http://www.cmgesq.com/blog/police-interrogations-and-video-recording/

So, for you, now, the question of guilt or innocence rests entirely on standards of police station recording across the globe? Curious. Others here have given you citations which demonstrate that the Perugian offices were outfitted with recording equipment, so I'm not sure about the efficacy or pertinence of your comparisons. I myself am far more curious about the fact that the vaunted chef's knife was proven to contain no trace of Meredith Kercher's DNA, and yet Nencini still saw fit to convict.

By the way, what happened to your penetrating line of inquiry on "knife boy", and his well-documented history of association with Rudy Guede before the night of the murder?

 

[Machiavelli]

M[achiavelli, do you have a cite for that? If so, I would like to see it. To convince me that Giobbi was not in the control room, you will have to demonstrate that for several hours repeat several hours Giobbi was pacing in the hall and did not enter the the control room.

This is illogical. I don't have to demonstrate anything. Giobbi says what needs to be said in his testimony, that's all he says, and what he says is that she was not in any control room at the time of Knox's confession. It is also evident that he is using the term 'control room' as a colloquialism, without any implication about video equipment, as you can deduce even from Teddy's translation of another snippet.

I do have a cite for my statement that Giobbi was in the control room. Candace Dempsy wrote:

Please do not expect me to consider Candace Dempsey as a source. If your basis is Candace Dempsey then you are having a wrong approach from the very roots.

 

[anglolawyer]

Nencini is the coordinator of 'Magistratura Democratica' in Tuscany, that is the leftist Magistrate gropu. He is the person who filed a report for criminal defamantion against Berlusconi, that was declared inadmissible because Berlusconi was a Senator at the time. Indeed Nencini is a prominent enemy of Berlusconi and actions against him are obviously political.

This government action is quite a pretext and will go nowhere: the minister herself is not in a moral position for that, given that she was caught in a scandalous conflict of interest, plotting at the phone trying to get her friend out of prison - minister Cancellieri is the friend of the Ligresti family, and the political coordinator of her party is Benedetto Dalla Vedova, the brother of Carlo Dalla Vedova.

Its a relief to find there is nothing going on that could possibly touch on the strict impartiality of these judges.