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LDS II: The Mormons

Why's that?
Temples are The House of The Lord, sacred spaces for sacred matters of no concern to those who have not reached this stage of progression. Everyone has the chance to progress to this level, it is just a matter of choosing to take the steps required.
 
What importance do you see with Ravi Zacharias speaking at the Tabernacle? I'm curious cause obviously I have my own thoughts. :D

Actually, my feeling is that Janadele was using Ravi's talking at the tabernacle to show that the Christian world is accepting LDS as Christians. Not sure since she didn't answer yet (unless it's waiting for a moderator to approve it).

I happened to run into Ravi's comments following his most recent talk at the Tabernacle, a few days ago, and I was pretty much correct in my assumption.

Ravi said:
So I realized our doctrinal differences, I realize the constituency we represent, and also the need to present the gospel. My challenge to them was, you cannot change society until the Church, that claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ understands who Jesus is. As the final and sufficient revelation for our salvation... I understand the risks, but we will never compromise our convictions, and the message, and as apologists we go where we feel that message is needed the most.

So in other words, he saw the opportunity to preach, and share his message, and he took it.

Actually, I already saw his comments following his first talk at the Tabernacle, which is how I knew what he'd do this time. Ravi still considers the LDS Church to be a cult; wait, I forgot to mention that he edited Martin's book Kingdom of the Cults! He doesn't see us as a cult in the secular view of the term (i.e. Jim Jones...), but in the "Christian" sense of the word, one who deviates from the teachings of Christ, particularly one who adds to, or removes doctrines or scriptures. BTW, I know more about Ravi than I care to, thanks to the link Janadele sent in about the Trojan Horse and the Gay Agenda. Yep, that's right. Victoria Jackson has a video of his comments on speaking at the tabernacle the first time. :rolleyes:
 
Please provide links to as many of the times that Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Old Testament as you can find.

Thank you in advance.

The Old Testament is rich in references to Jesus Christ. Here is a sampling:

Isaiah 7:14 (His birth).
Isaiah 9:6 (His destiny, including some of the names by which He shall be
known--"Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father,"
"Prince of Peace").
Micah 5:2 (His destiny).
Zechariah 9:9 (He will come and live under humble circumstances).
Psalm 22: 16-18 (Cruelty with which He will be treated).
53rd chapter of Isaiah (Detailed information about Jesus).
Malachi 4:2 (Second coming).

I hope this is helpful.
 
I've been in a working Temple. Trust me people there is nothing interesting happening in them except pretty standard baptisms and marriages.
 
Temples are The House of The Lord, sacred spaces for sacred matters of no concern to those who have not reached this stage of progression. Everyone has the chance to progress to this level, it is just a matter of choosing to take the steps required.

You pagans can get weird with your mystery religions.

Christians, such as Lutherans, Catholics and the like tend to allow anyone seeking God to enter the church, not just those deemed "holy" enough by an Earthly bureaucracy.

Back on topic, why do Mormons have a Catholic grade obsession with masturbation?

Bizarre Mormon anti-masturbation video narrated by BYU President

 
Why's that?

An LDS Temple is known as "The House of the Lord." One cannot enter unless he/she is LDS and can satisfactorily answer a series of questions posed in a temple recommend interview. Those questions are designed to determine if the member is worthy to enter such a holy place. Those who qualify are issued a "recommend," which they must show to a temple worker to gain admission.
 
.....why do Mormons have a Catholic grade obsession with masturbation?

Shaming of natural behavior is just another way to achieve control over perfectly normal human beings. This is what religious leaders often do. It's an insidiously damaging and harmful guilt trip that no young person can easily escape, and their search to resolve this guilt inevitably results in unnatural desires. So mean old men use their own "virtuous behavior" to manipulate them and to credit themselves with some sort of sick moral victory over sin.

It's the invasion, for nefarious purposes, of the private world of an individual's sexual needs and attractions that is the sin, and the perpetrator should be soundly punished.

Bronze age thinking, with Victorian values.
 
The Old Testament is rich in references to Jesus Christ. Here is a sampling:

Isaiah 7:14 (His birth).
Isaiah 9:6 (His destiny, including some of the names by which He shall be
known--"Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father,"
"Prince of Peace").
Micah 5:2 (His destiny).
Zechariah 9:9 (He will come and live under humble circumstances).
Psalm 22: 16-18 (Cruelty with which He will be treated).
53rd chapter of Isaiah (Detailed information about Jesus).
Malachi 4:2 (Second coming).

I hope this is helpful.
That's just quote mining. The Old Testament is rich in imagery and metaphor. The writer(s) of the Gospel of Matthew pretty much ransacked the Old Testament looking for anything that could be linked to something in the life of Jesus. And they probably threw out way more "prophesies" than they kept

I'll bet one could do the same for Kim Jong-un.


Also, did you know God is a chicken? For proof, see Psalms 91:4.

He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
 
Anyone can enter the regular churches. Only the temples are restricted to members.

An obsession with masturbation is new to me. I never encountered that before.
 
. . . An argument against my position would have to show conclusively that the institution of single sex marriage itself would have a net harmful effect on the society that actually exists at this moment.

Girls need female role models if they are to fulfill their biological destiny of becoming wives, homemakers, and mothers. They learn from those female role models how to keep a house, how to cook, how to dress, how to shop for appropriate clothing, and how to carry a fetus for nine months and go through childbirth (and breast feeding) A girl who has a "mother" who is, in fact, a male, is at a distinct disadvantage in learning and mastering these elemental skills. True, men can cook, men can shop, men can keep a house, but they cannot do it with the insight that women can. It is well established that the brains of males and females are wired differently, with females being superior at multi-tasking, precisely the innate ability that homemaking and motherhood requires. Try as you might, you cannot endow a male "mother" with the ability to be a real mother. Does this fact impact society as a whole? Of course it does. "Mothers" who don't know how to be mothers raise young women who are not equipped to do what they are biologically foreordained to do. That is not a promising prospect for society. If you want to claim that this is a matter of small moment, please explain why females are physically and mentally provisioned to accomplish some critically important roles in life while men are not. Accepting your position is the equivalent of claiming that there are no physical/mental differences between men and women.







My job is, I believe, much less demanding than yours. If you are to argue that considerations of child welfare make gay marriage inadvisable, you will have to find cogent arguments, and those arguments must include an explanation of how the existing children of homosexual parents, with or without partners, would be harmed by allowing their parents to marry the people they love. That is a very hard argument to make. It has not happened yet. Limited comprehension is not an asset here.[/QUOTE]
 
. . . Christians, such as Lutherans, Catholics and the like tend to allow anyone seeking God to enter the church, not just those deemed "holy" enough by an Earthly bureaucracy.

Anyone seeking God is free to enter the chapels of any one of thousands of LDS meeting houses throughout the world, where they will be warmly welcomed.

Your statement is less than fair because it suggests that Mormons turn away any one seeking God. It suggests something else, too: You don't understand the purpose of LDS temples. If you did, you wouldn't be able--in good conscience--to state what you have written here.

BTW, if you went to the Vatican, do you think you would be free to enter any building/room of your choosing?
 
As a Jew, it interested me to learn where in my own holy books appeared mention of Jesus. The answer is that it is nowhere in the Torah (except for a singe passage in Deuteronomy. For any hope, Skyrider44 has turned to the Prophets. These lesser books are filled with imagery and doomsaying. They do not count as Jewish law. Not one of the 613 commandments is found therein. Still, let's examine his evidence:


Isaiah 7:14 (His birth).


The fractured Jews are hungry to attack the Samarites and the Syrians. Isaiah tells them not to attack now. He says the time to attack will be when a young woman gives birth to a baby named Immanuel. Jesus' name was not Immanuel. Nothing in this verse talks about any kind of savior (let alone a savior of people's souls). At no point did Jesus defeat Syria or, for that matter, anybody.


Isaiah 9:6 (His destiny, including some of the names by which He shall be
known--"Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father,"
"Prince of Peace").


As Israel is pulled apart and sent into the diaspora, Isaiah gives the people hope that one day a new ruler will arise.


For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne ...​

Sounds like Isaiah is talking about a government leader. Jesus never led a government. Nor did he unite the Jews. Nor did he usher in an era of peace. Note, there's nothing in Isaiah about some guy being born, dying and then coming back to do all that stuff.


I'm just not seeing it.
 
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The Old Testament is rich in references to Jesus Christ. Here is a sampling:

Isaiah 7:14 (His birth).
Isaiah 9:6 (His destiny, including some of the names by which He shall be
known--"Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Everlasting Father,"
"Prince of Peace").
Micah 5:2 (His destiny).
Zechariah 9:9 (He will come and live under humble circumstances).
Psalm 22: 16-18 (Cruelty with which He will be treated).
53rd chapter of Isaiah (Detailed information about Jesus).
Malachi 4:2 (Second coming).

I hope this is helpful.

Not really.
It is helpful, however, as an illustration of circular reasoning.



Girls need female role models if they are to fulfill their biological destiny of becoming wives, homemakers, and mothers.
They learn from those female role models how to keep a house, how to cook, how to dress, how to shop for appropriate clothing, and how to carry a fetus for nine months and go through childbirth (and breast feeding) A girl who has a "mother" who is, in fact, a male, is at a distinct disadvantage in learning and mastering these elemental skills. True, men can cook, men can shop, men can keep a house, but they cannot do it with the insight that women can. It is well established that the brains of males and females are wired differently, with females being superior at multi-tasking, precisely the innate ability that homemaking and motherhood requires. Try as you might, you cannot endow a male "mother" with the ability to be a real mother. Does this fact impact society as a whole? Of course it does. "Mothers" who don't know how to be mothers raise young women who are not equipped to do what they are biologically foreordained to do. That is not a promising prospect for society. If you want to claim that this is a matter of small moment, please explain why females are physically and mentally provisioned to accomplish some critically important roles in life while men are not. Accepting your position is the equivalent of claiming that there are no physical/mental differences between men and women..

It's hard to believe this isn't a Poe, but on the chance your post represents a sincere belief, all I can ask is whether those views on biological destiny are LDS doctrine?
 
Janadele, you have (again and again) made a very strong argument for why a person with your religious views cannot condone homosexual behavior. There is no doubt that you believe strongly that such behavior offends God and your beliefs.

What you have not (as usual) succeeded in doing is convincing anyone that your beliefs should determine the rights of others, or that the protections your beliefs enjoy should be withdrawn from others.

Skyrider44's attempts to frame the argument in practical, civil terms, although they have been, I think, unsuccessful and tendentious, at least suggest that he understands the issue. But you have not bothered even to try. Your arguments are entirely based on an interpretation of what you say God wants, and on the unique theology of the LDS Church with regard to gender before and after death.

Yours are not the only beliefs. They are not the majority beliefs. And yet, because of secular government and religious toleration people with your unusual and unpopular beliefs are allowed to pursue them. You wish to rescind the benefits of a secular civil society, the very benefits that prevent your minority sect from persecution, that your leaders looked to for protection from bigots.

What hubris it is not to understand this.

Bruto, If you wish to submit the above post to the LDS thread I shall once again answer there. Though my past posts have already clearly given the answer.

The question has been submitted Janadele. Will you answer?
 
Anyone seeking God is free to enter the chapels of any one of thousands of LDS meeting houses throughout the world, where they will be warmly welcomed.



Your statement is less than fair because it suggests that Mormons turn away any one seeking God. It suggests something else, too: You don't understand the purpose of LDS temples. If you did, you wouldn't be able--in good conscience--to state what you have written here.


I see. The LDS church draws a distinction between worship and rituals that Christians do not, necessitating separate holy places. It reminds me of some if the Neo-Pagans and Druidic Pagans I know. While they don't typically separate ritual places, they do limit some ritual attendance based upon similar criteria. For example, You and I couldn't walk into a proper Beltane ceremony to witness what happens on the standing stones.

It's odd though that such community centered rituals, likes marriage and introducing an infant to the community, are restricted instead of open. It highlights a rather sick need for isolating outsiders. The choices about what ceremonies are restricted in the LDS appears to be more about deliberately excluding Gentiles than anything "Holy" in the ceremony itself.

Keeping Gentiles out of Mormon weddings does make a bit more sense than the baptisms though. We have to remember that these distinctions evolved during a time when Mormons were openly practicing polygamy. Excluding outsiders meant fewer people knew about a specific act of bigamy. To a Mormon, it's probably a but like Jews celebrating Passover in Inquisition era Spain.

The legacy of being subjected persecution influenced the odd practice of excluding people from community ceremonies. The alleged holiness of the ceremonies is just a post hoc rationalization.

"BTW, if you went to the Vatican, do you think you would be free to enter any building/room of your choosing?"

That's a poor comparison. The Catholic Church has a number of churches that are restricted because they are not in good enough condition to be open to the public. For example, the former monastery where da Vinci's Last Supper is on the wall is a heavily restricted area because the moisture from visitors breathing has been causing the fresco to flake off.

The Catholic Church also has churches and chapels restricted based upon hierarchy. That's about organizational elitism or financial contributions, not being "holier" than someone else.
 
Girls need female role models if they are to fulfill their biological destiny of becoming wives, homemakers, and mothers. They learn from those female role models how to keep a house, how to cook, how to dress, how to shop for appropriate clothing, and how to carry a fetus for nine months and go through childbirth (and breast feeding) A girl who has a "mother" who is, in fact, a male, is at a distinct disadvantage in learning and mastering these elemental skills. True, men can cook, men can shop, men can keep a house, but they cannot do it with the insight that women can. It is well established that the brains of males and females are wired differently, with females being superior at multi-tasking, precisely the innate ability that homemaking and motherhood requires. Try as you might, you cannot endow a male "mother" with the ability to be a real mother. Does this fact impact society as a whole? Of course it does. "Mothers" who don't know how to be mothers raise young women who are not equipped to do what they are biologically foreordained to do. That is not a promising prospect for society. If you want to claim that this is a matter of small moment, please explain why females are physically and mentally provisioned to accomplish some critically important roles in life while men are not. Accepting your position is the equivalent of claiming that there are no physical/mental differences between men and women.







My job is, I believe, much less demanding than yours. If you are to argue that considerations of child welfare make gay marriage inadvisable, you will have to find cogent arguments, and those arguments must include an explanation of how the existing children of homosexual parents, with or without partners, would be harmed by allowing their parents to marry the people they love. That is a very hard argument to make. It has not happened yet. Limited comprehension is not an asset here.
[/QUOTE]
I had to look at the calendar to make sure we were still in 2014 and not back in the 1940s. Your arguments are the exact arguments made against women entering the work force. They are also very similar to the arguments made against women being allowed to vote.


If women, as you claim, are better at multitasking then men, that would mean they should be in industry as managers and CEOs. Also, if men are simply not as good as women at cooking, cleaning and dressing, then how do you explain the prevalence of men in restaurants and in the fashion industry?

Finally, your argument would imply that houses who have the men stay at home and the women work would worse for children than your more traditional approach. Do you believe this?
 
I had thought that the fact that good parents - whether heterosexual or homosexual - ensure that their children have role models of both sexes (even if they themselves are single parents, widow(er)s, or same sex couples) had been established earlier, on this thread or the split off one which concentrated on homosexuality.

If that is the case, as I believe it is, then skyrider's view of parenting roles and the 'destiny' of girls need not worry him, since a male same sex couple who wish to be good parents will ensure that their children have access to positive female role models, and a female same sex couple will similarly ensure that their children have access to positive male role models.
 
Girls need female role models if they are to fulfill their biological destiny of becoming wives, homemakers, and mothers. They learn from those female role models how to keep a house, how to cook, how to dress, how to shop for appropriate clothing, and how to carry a fetus for nine months and go through childbirth (and breast feeding) A girl who has a "mother" who is, in fact, a male, is at a distinct disadvantage in learning and mastering these elemental skills. True, men can cook, men can shop, men can keep a house, but they cannot do it with the insight that women can. It is well established that the brains of males and females are wired differently, with females being superior at multi-tasking, precisely the innate ability that homemaking and motherhood requires. Try as you might, you cannot endow a male "mother" with the ability to be a real mother. Does this fact impact society as a whole? Of course it does. "Mothers" who don't know how to be mothers raise young women who are not equipped to do what they are biologically foreordained to do. That is not a promising prospect for society. If you want to claim that this is a matter of small moment, please explain why females are physically and mentally provisioned to accomplish some critically important roles in life while men are not. Accepting your position is the equivalent of claiming that there are no physical/mental differences between men and women.







My job is, I believe, much less demanding than yours. If you are to argue that considerations of child welfare make gay marriage inadvisable, you will have to find cogent arguments, and those arguments must include an explanation of how the existing children of homosexual parents, with or without partners, would be harmed by allowing their parents to marry the people they love. That is a very hard argument to make. It has not happened yet. Limited comprehension is not an asset here.
[/QUOTE]


As usual, you have missed at least one of my usual main points and accidentally confirmed the other.

You can tout all you want the benefits of what you consider the ideal family arrangement, but what I specifically asked for you cannot deliver: an actual demonstration that the NET effect of gay marriage would be negative for the people who actually exist in the world. The world is full of unhappy marriages, divorces, single parent families, gay couples with and without children, heterosexual pairings with unconventional roles, orphans and outliers. You have yet to show how making gay marriage legal (gay based families having already become legal long ago) would have a negative impact on the reality of life for the people who are actually living in the world.

Besides, as usual, if your argument were valid, it would be a very convincing argument in favor of lesbian marriage. It's clear from what you say that a girl child should ideally have two female parents.
 

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