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How much time do we really have?

TimCallahan said:
Okay, let's take a look at probability and other factors in your quoted fulfilled prophecies and historical facts:

Everyone of these have a 50% probability of being right or wrong. There's nothing in anyway impressive here.

Nonsense. Haman was the villain of the Book of Esther. Muhammad obviously conflated and garbled the two books. That's a major screw up on Muhammad's part. Ergo, the Qur'an is not divinely inspired.

Here's what Q 17: 103, 104 actually says (bracketed material added for clarity):

So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him. After his death We told the Children of Israel, "Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people.

This says nothing about, " . . . the Jewish people would be gathered together from among various nations, such as in the creation of state of Israel."

And yet, Q 17:103, quoted above says, "So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him." So which is it?

No, actually the lost city in the desert found in modern times is the city of Ubar. There's speculation it is the same as Iram, but speculation only.

Actually, in the process of the collection of the surahs of the Qur'an, it was revised a number of times.

Cjhristianity reamins the world's largest religion. You, and the Qur'an, are wrong again.

So, since the ark hasn't been found, the prophecy is unfulfilled and amounts to nothing.

The idea that Jesus wasn't actually crucified was created by Basilides, a Gnostic, in the second century.It's a late myth that Muhammad bought into.

Everything that happens that's momentous is read into supposedly inspired books as a sign of the end.
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Based upon your responses it is pretty obvious that you haven't read any of the things posted in the OP, or bothered to kept up with the discussion taking place in the thread.
 
mikeb768:

Kindly explain why Q 18:92 - 99 state that Duh 'l-Qarnayn ("Two Horns," most likely Alexander the Great) built an iron barrier in a pass between two mountains to keep out Gog and Magog, and that this iron barrier will last until judgment day. In his Wars of the Jews, Josephus refers to this iron barrier as being in the Caucasus. Yet, no such barrier now exists nor ever did. If the Qur'an was inspired by God, where is this iron barrier?
 
mikeb768 said:
Based upon your responses it is pretty obvious that you haven't read any of the things posted in the OP, or bothered to kept up with the discussion taking place in the thread.
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No, I'v'e quoted you chapter and verse from the Qur'an, and you've simply dismissed my very specific points out of hand. Let's take one of the points I made and see if you can actually give a specific rebuttal to it. You claimed in the OP that Q 17:104 predicted the creation of the modern state of israel Once again, here's what Q 17: 103, 104 actually say (bracketed material added for clarity):

So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him. After his death We told the Children of Israel, "Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people.

So, how do you see this as a prediction of the modern state of Israel?
 
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TimCallahan said:
mikeb768:

Kindly explain why Q 18:92 - 99 state that Duh 'l-Qarnayn ("Two Horns," most likely Alexander the Great) built an iron barrier in a pass between two mountains to keep out Gog and Magog, and that this iron barrier will last until judgment day. In his Wars of the Jews, Josephus refers to this iron barrier as being in the Caucasus. Yet, no such barrier now exists nor ever did. If the Qur'an was inspired by God, where is this iron barrier?
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"No such barrier now exists nor ever did" - So you trekked across every inch of the globe before coming to this determination?

I don't pretend to know where this area is? In one of the links which can be found in the OP "The Return of Jesus Christ", the speaker discusses his opinion (which I imagine to be based on both Quran and hadith) as to when he believes the fore mentioned event will take place. It definitely does not represent any sort of error or contradiction, as the event is understood as taking place at a period after the time of Jesus' return.

A good lecture I have heard on the subject is this one here "Gog And Magog". This is still something that many will find quite hard to believe/understand, myself included.
 
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mikeb768 said:
"No such barrier now exists nor ever did" - So you trekked across every inch of the globe before coming to this determination?
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Are you seriously suggesting that there is such a barrier, but that Tim is simply ignorant of its location?
 
mikeb768 said:
So we are left to answer the question, if Muhammad had copied the Bible when reciting the Quran how did he managed to leave out all of the scientifically incorrect information which is found in the Bible, but then managed to included statements which are not found in the Bible, but which are scientifically sound?
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The quran says, a number of times, that the heaven and earth were created in six days. This echoes the bible which says the same thing. Both are wrong therefore Muhammad copied this error from the bible.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Are you seriously suggesting that there is such a barrier, but that Tim is simply ignorant of its location?
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I am implying that we are all ignorant of this location, but the belief is that sometime after Jesus' return the location and significance of this barrier will be made known.
 
Scorpion said:
The quran says, a number of times, that the heaven and earth were created in six days. This echoes the bible which says the same thing. Both are wrong therefore Muhammad copied this error from the bible.
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Actually I have already written a thread on this very subject. Link
 
mikeb768 said:
"No such barrier now exists nor ever did" - So you trekked across every inch of the globe before coming to this determination?

I don't pretend to know where this area is? In one of the links which can be found in the OP "The Return of Jesus Christ", the speaker discusses his opinion (which I imagine to be based on both Quran and hadith) as to when he believes the fore mentioned event will take place. It definitely does not represent any sort of error or contradiction, as the event is understood as taking place at a period after the time of Jesus' return.

A good lecture I have heard on the subject is this one here "Gog And Magog". This is still something that many will find quite hard to believe/understand, myself included.
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The Gog and Magog video in your link is all over the map. At one point it says Gog and Magog come from the east. At another point it says that Dhu 'l-Qarnayn built the barrier to keep them out in the extreme west, at the point of the setting sun. In another place it says they will come from everywhere. In yet another place it says that this extremely numerous people will come from a mountainous region. In yet another place it says that Gog and Magog are sealed underground. In short, it's gibberish.
 
TimCallahan said:
No, I'v'e quoted you chapter and verse from the Qur'an, and you've simply dismissed my very specific points out of hand. Let's take one of the points I made and see if you can actually give a specific rebuttal to it. You claimed in the OP that Q 17:104 predicted the creation of the modern state of israel Once again, here's what Q 17: 103, 104 actually say (bracketed material added for clarity):

So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him. After his death We told the Children of Israel, "Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people.

So, how do you see this as a prediction of the modern state of Israel?
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I'm still waiting for a response to this post.
 
TimCallahan said:
I'm still waiting for a response to this post.
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No need to wait, just read through the history of Jewish people and the point and time when they were gathered from various places around the world and relocated in Israel (what was formerly known as Palestine).

Although I realize many atheists choose not to believe in various portions of the history of the Jews, to include, but probably not limited to the Jewish exodus, Plagues of Egypt, the existence of Moses, etc.
 
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mikeb768 said:
No need to wait, just read through the history of Jewish people and the point and time when they were gathered from various places around the world and relocated in Israel (what was formerly known as Palestine).

Although I realize many atheists choose not to believe in various portions of the history of the Jews, to include, but probably not limited to the Jewish exodus, Plagues of Egypt, the existence of Moses, etc.
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Again, the verse you cited from the Qur'an does not predict this. Here, again, are Q 17: 103, 104 (bracketed material added for clarity):

So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him. After his death We told the Children of Israel, "Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people."

Once again, where do you see a prophecy of the creation of the modern state of Israel in these verses?

BTW: If the Qur'an did indeed predict the modern state of Israel, shouldn't modern day Muslims respect this and leave Israel alone?
 
mikeb768 said:
Why do you keep coming back with this same argument despite me actually showing you on more than one occasion, the Quran was not copied from the Bible.

By looking at just two of the things mentioned in the OP we can see examples of why the claim of "The Quran is copied from the Bible" is quite off base.

[B]1)[/B] The person known as Haman, who is mentioned in both books. Link 2) The book The Bible, the Qu'ran and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge, which was written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. Many aspects of Science that can be found in the Bible do not seem to be in agreement with science, with the Quran this is not the case.

So we are left to answer the question, if Muhammad had copied the Bible when reciting the Quran how did he managed to leave out all of the scientifically incorrect information which is found in the Bible, but then managed to included statements which are not found in the Bible, but which are scientifically sound?
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Regarding the hilighted area and your link: Where is this tablet from ancient Egypt's New Kingdom that supposedly mentions Haman? So far, the only sources I've been able to find for such a claim are Maurice Bucaille - a physician, not an archaeologist or historian - and Harun Yahya, the pen name of Adnan Oktar, an old earth creationist, purveyor of conspiracy theories about the Jews and Freemasons, and a holocaust denier. I addition, he's been involved criminal activities, including blackmail.

Do you have any other sources for the claim that the name Haman appears in texts of the Egyptian New Kingdom? Do you have any references to the whereabouts of this alleged text?
 
mikeb768 said:
Why do you keep coming back with this same argument despite me actually showing you on more than one occasion, the Quran was not copied from the Bible.
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Of course the quran was copied from the bible, It is totally obvious.
The main reason being that the quran is full of references to the Jewish stories in the bible that are obviously nothing but myths.

Unless you believe in Noahs ark, and Jonah being swallowed by a whale, and the parting of the red sea. Because they are all mentioned in the quran.
 
Concerning the name "Haman" supposedly being found among writings of the New Kingdom and listed in Ranke's Dictionary of Personal Names of the New Kingdom, I found Ranke's entry at this site. The name is a actually Hmn - h. One could, I suppose torture that into being "Haman," or it could by Hymen, or human. Then there's that pasky little "-h"at the end of it. Who knows what it means?

As to an Egyptian tablet bearing the name "Haman," the site says this:

Harun Yahya wrote about ten years ago:3

The name "Haman" was in fact mentioned in old Egyptian tablets. It was mentioned on a monument which now stands in the Hof Museum in Vienna, …

This is another lie. There is not even one Egyptian tablet, let alone many, on which the name Haman was found, nor is the artefact with the inscription that allegedly contains the name Haman “a monument”; it is a door post and it does not say “Haman”. Most ironically, there has not even been a “Hof Museum” in Vienna for more than eighty years!

ETA: As it turns out, the museum in question is the Vienna Fine Arts Museum, which has a large ancient Egyptian collection. I've e-mailed them asking if they have an ancient Egyptian tablet bearing the name of Haman. If they actually do have such a tablet, I will be forced to concede the Qur'an got that right. So, mikeb768, if it turns out they have no such tablet, will you acknowledge that the Qur'an is in error concerning Haman?
 
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TimCallahan said:
Again, the verse you cited from the Qur'an does not predict this. Here, again, are Q 17: 103, 104 (bracketed material added for clarity):

So he [Pharaoh] wanted to wipe them off of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him. After his death We told the Children of Israel, "Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people."

Once again, where do you see a prophecy of the creation of the modern state of Israel in these verses?

BTW: If the Qur'an did indeed predict the modern state of Israel, shouldn't modern day Muslims respect this and leave Israel alone?
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Which translation of the Quran are you using? The more popular English translations which can be found at Quran.com state the following:



Some interpret this event as being close to the time of the Hereafter some interpret this event as taking place during the day of Judgement. If the event was close to the day of Judgement and also something that had already taken place as Yusuf Ali writes in his commentary the event would not fit with his interpretation, although his translations were published in 1934 and republished 1938 to my knowledge.

But "Muslims should respect this and leave Israel alone"??? Seriously. Israelis have been systematically stealing land, demolishing homes/property, and wiping the mostly Muslim Palestinians off the map for half a century. Yet you say Muslims should leave them alone? What ever happened to coexist? But this is another discussion all together.



"Al-Nakba" ~ A Documentary on the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine part 1, part 2
 
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mikeb768 said:
Which translation of the Quran are you using? The more popular English translations which can be found at Quran.com state the following:

[qimg]http://s21.postimg.org/dtipman3n/quran.jpg[/qimg]

Some interpret this event as being close to the time of the Hereafter some interpret this event as taking place during the day of Judgement. If the event was close to the day of Judgement and also something that had already taken place as Yusuf Ali writes in his commentary the event would not fit with his interpretation, although his translations were published in 1934 and republished 1938 to my knowledge.
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I'm using the Oxford World's Classic edition translated by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem. I not that, among those you show the one by Muhsin Khan inserts a whole bit about this happening when Jesus returns, something that he apparently invented himself. Are you okay with that?

mikeb768 said:
But "Muslims should respect this and leave Israel alone"??? Seriously. Israelis have been systematically stealing land, demolishing homes/property, and wiping the mostly Muslim Palestinians off the map for half a century. Yet you say Muslims should leave them alone? What ever happened to coexist? But this is another discussion all together.

[qimg]http://s15.postimg.org/nv767o0xz/palestine.jpg[/qimg]

"Al-Nakba" ~ A Documentary on the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine part 1, part 2
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I was merely saying that, if the Qur'an actually did predict that God would bring the children of Israel back into their land in the twentieth century, the the creation of the state of Israel is an act of God.
 
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TimCallahan said:
I'm using the Oxford World's Classic edition translated by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem. I not that, among those you show the one by Muhsin Khan inserts a whole bit about this happening when Jesus returns, something that he apparently invented himself. Are you okay with that?



I was merely saying that, if the Qur'an actually did predict that God would bring the children of Israel back into their land in the twentieth century, the the creation of the state of Israel is an act of God.
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Yeah, I realize that Muhsin Khan provides much more information/interpretation in his translation, but everything not part of the Quran is in ()/[] so there is no question of the source, people can either take it or leave it.

Even if the Quran predicts that God would bring the children of Israel back into their land, that is still no excuse for the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians. It is something which is completely disgusting and deplorable imo. The absolute irony of Israelis claiming that they are being threatened with being "Wiped off the map", while they are literally and systematically wiping an entire people off the map.
 
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