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Did Jesus exist?

Did Jesus exist?


  • Total voters
    193
  • Poll closed .
Where did you "prove" in this thread that Jesus existed?

You are claiming to have proved in this thread that these Christians were followers of an executed Jesus, right? You cannot execute people who do not exist. So please quote where in this thread you "proved" that Jesus existed.

How did you prove (as you just claimed) that Jesus existed?

"these Christians" were rather obviously following something, some teaching.
But being honest, I can't find that either. I would imagine that if such an actual identifiable individual were proven it would make the news at the very least.
 
Where did you "prove" in this thread that Jesus existed?

You are claiming to have proved in this thread that these Christians were followers of an executed Jesus, right? You cannot execute people who do not exist. So please quote where in this thread you "proved" that Jesus existed.

How did you prove (as you just claimed) that Jesus existed?

You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Further, you deleted the very next sentence from my post which illuminates the entire post with delicious context.

That being said, perhaps it is understandable given the propensity of our friend to slather the thread with non sequitors and other completely irrelevant musings in a list form, a/k/a galloping.
 
You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Further, you deleted the very next sentence from my post which illuminates the entire post with delicious context.

That being said, perhaps it is understandable given the propensity of our friend to slather the thread with non sequitors and other completely irrelevant musings in a list form, a/k/a galloping.

GISH GALLOP.

1. it has been proven in this thread that the Christians were followers of the man who suffered the extreme penalty under Pilate.

was Simon Magus crucified by Pilate? YES OR NO?

2. Even assuming that people were following Simon Magus, Simon Magus claimed to be a follower of Christ.

Answer the simple question, dejudge.
That is your post in full. Not seeing your point.
 
That is your post in full. Not seeing your point.

That is not the post in full.

I was responding to the now thoroughly discredited claim that Tacitus was referring to Simon Magus or any other person/being/deity (ie Osiris) other than the man who had suffered the extreme penalty before Pilate.
 
"these Christians" were rather obviously following something, some teaching.
But being honest, I can't find that either. I would imagine that if such an actual identifiable individual were proven it would make the news at the very least.



Oh, sure. There clearly were Jews in that region who for many centuries had believed in the coming of a "Christ", i.e. a messiah.

Though since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls c.170BC through to 70AD, it seems Jewish messiah preaching had been in a state of change, probably influenced by various god beliefs introduced by the Greeks, Romans and Persians, inc. preaching very similar to the later beliefs of Paul, where instead of a human military leader in the line of King David (who himself appears to have been only fictional anyway!), where both the scrolls and Paul appear to be preaching of the messiah as a divine priestly figure ordained by Yahweh in heaven and who had been sent specifically to gather the faithful ready for Yahweh's day of final judgement which was believed imminent at any moment.

But exactly who any of those different preachers and sects thought that divine apocalyptic messiah was, seems to vary from one preacher or sect to the next. Paul apparently thought he was the messiah named 1000 years before by Moses as "Yehoshua" i.e. Jesus. The Essenes of the DSS only named the messiah by the coded epithet "Teacher of Righteousness". Paul is supposed to have referred to earlier Christ believers who he had once persecuted, but in certain of Paul’s letters he appears to admonish the leaders of those earlier existing "Christ" followers for believing that various different people were "the Christ".

But the teaching they were all following was rather obviously their belief in the OT. The only problem with that was, the prophecies and statements in the OT were often deliberately vague and left open to all sorts of interpretations as to what anyone thought the passages really meant.

Paul is very clear in his letters in saying that he had used that OT scripture to discover the true meaning of the messiah prophecies. He clearly says that he believed that "God was pleased to reveal his Son in me" (that from memory), where he is talking about his belief that all his constant attempts to communicate with God and to receive & understand Gods great secret message etc., had been rewarded by God giving him the gift of revealing from the OT the true meaning of the divine message that iirc Paul says was the great "secret" "hidden for so long" ... and that great secret which God was pleased to reveal in Paul, was the revelation that the OT passages actually meant that the messiah had been a divine messenger of the past named Yehoshua (Jesus), named by Moses himself!

So if the above is roughly correct then it does not seem to me that there needs to be any great mystery about where any of that messiah teaching came from. It very clearly came from their absolute and total faith in the OT as divine revelation from God. And in fact both Paul’s letters and all the gospel writing specifically says that the authors were obtaining their messiah beliefs from that OT scripture. So I don’t see much room for any doubt about that at all.

And nor do I think there is any great mystery about who these earlier "Christians" were. They were all the Jews of that region, every last one of them. All of whom were absolutely certain that their divine OT promised as matter of certainty that a Christ would appear to save them ... the only caveat, which had lasted since at least 500BC if not 1000BC, was their constant debate about exactly who God’s messiah was or would be (depending on whether they thought he had already appeared, or whether they thought he was still preparing to appear) ... where at various times different preachers like Paul and different sects such as the Essenes, had variously claimed all sorts of different people as Yahweh’s promised and utterly certain coming messiah “the Christ“.
 
Yes, right during the period Christian community was beginning to flourish.

Is there something to indicate Tacitus, as a boy, had any contact with Christians?...

Now, back to why you reckon Tacitus had contact with Christians as a growing boy?

I never said his contact/knowledge of the Christians was limited to when he was a boy.

Very true. Are you saying Tacitus had contact with Christians when he was a boy?
What makes you think Tacitus was an eyewitness of at the age of eight to the events of the Great Fire?
 
Very true. Are you saying Tacitus had contact with Christians when he was a boy?
What makes you think Tacitus was an eyewitness of at the age of eight to the events of the Great Fire?

What a strange series of questions.

Is there some doubt in your mind that the Great Fire took place?
 
How about the point I brought up that was ignored:

Pliny the Elder who was in Rome during Nero's reign mentions the fire...but not Christians though he does write of the Essenes. It's the Philo-Herod Agripa I situation again...a known adult contemporary who should be providing corroborating evidence for events...but doesn't.

Josephus despite being in Rome in 64 CE doesn't mention the fire, which would make sense as it doesn't reflect on the welfare of the Jewish people...until the persecution of Christians enters the picture in the light of the TF. Certainly Josephus would have written about how the followers of the wondrous man he gave us a paragraph in the TF suffering under Nero...but we instead get nothing.


Philostratus who in Life of Apollonius of Tyana goes on and on about Nero's many crimes and enormities but neither the fire or persecution of Christians are among them.

Oh on the whole 'in the 1st century the followers of Jesus were not known as Christians' that in one form or another pops up in MJ literature. One such work (Refuting Missionaries) states that "Christians" in the 1st century were known by the term Notzrim.

In fact, the very term "Christian" does NOT appear in any of Paul's writings and in the actual Biblical text in only three places: Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16

Thanks, maximara.
Off to read Philostratus (a new pleasure!) and reding up on Notzrim.



That, according to Maximara, in the first century the followers of Jesus were not known as Christians. I'm not at all sure that it's true. The opposite is stated in Acts 11. There's nothing implausible about that, though Acts is not by any means an infallible source of information. They proclaimed Jesus as a messiah, or christ, after all. As the younger Pliny reports shortly later, in the early second century; by that time they were worshipping the messiah as a god.

A good point about Pliny the Younger, Craig B.
 
I won't allow you to continue the propaganda.

Pliny the younger did not mention Jesus in the letter to Trajan.

Pliny the younger did not claim Jesus was the Messiah.

Pliny the younger did not know what the Christians believe.

Pliny TORTURED some to find out and they still did not mention Jesus.

You already know it is claimed that there were Christians who worshiped Simon Magus as a God since 41-54 CE. See Justin's Apology.

You already know that it is simply a fallacy that all people called Christians worshiped Jesus.

Please, let us be honest.

Please, stop the propaganda that Pliny the younger mentioned Jesus.
The propaganda has been already exposed.

You cannot continue to make assumptions as facts--that is wrong and unacceptable at any level.

Call a spade a spade. It is a LIE that Pliny the younger mentioned Jesus. :eek:
 
What a strange series of questions.

Is there some doubt in your mind that the Great Fire took place?

He asked regarding EVENTS of the Great Fire not the fire itself. It would be akin to challenging the claim there was a rigid airship moored atop one of the World Trade Centers when they destroyed Sept 11, 2001 by asking if the person was doubting the World Trade Centers were destroyed Sept 11, 2001. :boggled:
 
Hyperbole.

Hyperbole?
Orly? What did Pliny write to Trajan?

Orly!! What did Pliny write to Trajan?


Who might this "Christ" be of whom Pliny spoke?

Who is Christ in the 2nd century??


What is true?

He had a vague idea, no more than that.

You know He had a vague memory?

They were faithful christians who declined to curse christ. What about the ones who did?

Who was this cursed Christ in the 2nd century? Obscure dead HJ was cursed? Who would curse your obscure DEAD man in the 2nd century?

The HJ argument doesn't make much sense.


By definition they were not christians.

What is a Christian by definition in the second century?

Also by definition not christians.


What is a heretic Christian by definition in the 2nd century?

Exsqueeze me?

You Exsqueezed?


Hyperbole again.

Hyberbole again?


And again.

Again, Where is the evidence for HJ?
 
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OK Maximara.

I'm not going to try to argue you out of the corner you've painted yourself into regarding the Historical authority of Tacitus.

There is no corner. The reality is we KNOW Tacitus talked about Chrestians and some scribe later altered the word into Christians.

Given there were no real standard of spelling in the West until the advent of the printing press in the 15th century why would the spelling of the word need to be changed? This is especially true given that supposedly Chrestians was a variant spelling of Christians. Why would you change it...unless you were trying to hide something---like there may have been another group called Chrestians that had nothing to do with Jesus.
 
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There is no corner. The reality is we KNOW Tacitus talked about Chrestians and some scribe later altered the word into Christians.

Given there were no real standard of spelling in the West until the advent of the printing press in the 15th century why would the spelling of the word need to be changed? This is especially true given that supposedly Chrestians was a variant spelling of Christians. Why would you change it...unless you were trying to hide something---like there may have been another group called Chrestians that had nothing to do with Jesus.

Though if there is no real standarad of spelling then there would be no need to 'correct' the spelling since that wouldn't make sense.
 
"these Christians" were rather obviously following something, some teaching.
But being honest, I can't find that either. I would imagine that if such an actual identifiable individual were proven it would make the news at the very least.

There is apoint 16.5 and cohort are missing.

At some point there were Zeus followers. Zeus did not exists.

just sayin'. Having follower is not a proof of existence of mythic semi deified figure of that cult.
 
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Very true. Are you saying Tacitus had contact with Christians when he was a boy?
What makes you think Tacitus was an eyewitness of at the age of eight to the events of the Great Fire?

What a strange series of questions.

Not really.
Have you forgotten your claims Tacitus was an eyewitness to the Great Fire and would have had contact with Christians as a boy?





Is there some doubt in your mind that the Great Fire took place?

I love the smell of a strawman in the morning! :D
16.5, you registered in 2007 yet haven't posted til December of 2013. That means you've had time to read many, many threads on the subject of the historicity of Jesus.
I'm surprised you've posted a strawman argument rather than a discussion Tacitus' report of the Great Fire as evidence of an HJ.

Again, why do you think Tacitus was an eyewitness to the Great Fire?
ETA
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9811198&postcount=271
Here's your post making this claim

ETA
16.5, I owe you a deep apology for my grossly mistaken comments on your posting history, as everyone's comments seem to start in December of 2013. Please accept my sincere and ashamed apology.
 
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Not really.
Have you forgotten your claims Tacitus was an eyewitness to the Great Fire and would have had contact with Christians as a boy?

Again, why do you think Tacitus was an eyewitness to the Great Fire?
ETA
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9811198&postcount=271
Here's your post making this claim

That is not what I wrote. Words mean things.

Further, I am astonished about the anti-History postings here. Did Tacitus have to actually see the Fire burning to write authentically and authoritatively about the Great Fire of Rome? Of course not, that is utterly absurd.

On the other hand, did have first hand knowledge that Nero was said to have blamed the Christians? Of course he did
 
That is not what I wrote. Words mean things.

Further, I am astonished about the anti-History postings here. Did Tacitus have to actually see the Fire burning to write authentically and authoritatively about the Great Fire of Rome? Of course not, that is utterly absurd.

On the other hand, did have first hand knowledge that Nero was said to have blamed the Christians? Of course he did

How do you know he had first hand knowledge? Are there any other sources that say Nero blamed the Christians?
 
How do you know he had first hand knowledge? Are there any other sources that say Nero blamed the Christians?

What does it matter if there are not?

Answer: it does not matter for our purposes. the discussion here is about Christians in Rome, which were 1. an identifiable sect; 2. strongly disliked by the literary elite; and that there was a connection between the sect in Rome and events that took place in Judea under Pilate
 
What does it matter if there are not?

Answer: it does not matter for our purposes. the discussion here is about Christians in Rome, which were 1. an identifiable sect; 2. strongly disliked by the literary elite; and that there was a connection between the sect in Rome and events that took place in Judea under Pilate

If the only evidence that Nero persecuted Christians is Tacitus and we know that Tacitus is true because Nero persecuted the Christians then it matters very much whether or not there are other records.
 
If the only evidence that Nero persecuted Christians is Tacitus and we know that Tacitus is true because Nero persecuted the Christians then it matters very much whether or not there are other records.

I believe that if one were to closely evaluate my post, one would see that your post is not accurate.
 

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