JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

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Henri McPhee said:
There was an interesting American TV show on British TV yesterday called America Declassified which touched on the JFK murder. It was about an investigation by Mike Baker ,a former CIA officer, into the JFK murder witness Lee Bowers who died in a mysterious car crash.

It mentioned that 18 witnesses died within 3 years of the JFK murder, though somebody did appear to say that was quite normal.
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Yes it is. And if the "mysterious" accident was any more than that, there is no evidence connecting it to JFK.
 
Henri McPhee said:
There was an interesting American TV show on British TV yesterday called America Declassified which touched on the JFK murder. It was about an investigation by Mike Baker ,a former CIA officer, into the JFK murder witness Lee Bowers who died in a mysterious car crash.

It mentioned that 18 witnesses died within 3 years of the JFK murder, though somebody did appear to say that was quite normal.

The thing about the Lee Bowers death was that there was no accident investigation, or cause of death, apart from it being an accident, and his body was quickly cremated, which was very unusual at the time.

I think all this warrants further investigation. There is a bit of background to all this on the internet:
...(snip uncredited quote)...
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Henri, if you're going to quote in its entirety a passage from a thirty year old article by Penn Jones- the father of the "mysterious witness deaths" myth- to support the myth, don't you think it would have been honest to cite its provenance?

I suppose it's possible that you didn't know that's what you were quoting- that it's just something you got from someplace like AboveTopSecret or DemocraticUnderground. But that just makes you another example of CT methodology, in repeating what you hear on the Internet as gospel somehow sanctified as truth by mere repetition (in fact, it's kind of interesting that the echo you're repeating has finally circled around- unbeknownst to you- to its original source).
 
Henri McPhee said:
My source for that Lee Bowers information can be found here:

http://www.maebrussell.com/Disappearing Witnesses/Disappearing Witnesses.html

It looks like more unsolved and not properly investigated murders to me.
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Sorry, I guess I wasn't making my point clear. My question is, do you have anything to support the myth other than the source of it? What you're doing here is similar to what fundie Christians do when they cite the Bible to support the truth of the Bible. Surely you have evidence that these were "unsolved and not properly investigated murders" independent of just the opinion of the guy who first told you so; echo chambers don't make for good research.

Have you looked at any other opinions? For instance, BStrong, just above (in post #5127), gives you a link to McAdams. I know you guys tend to dislike that site, but you'll notice something about it if you bother to read it- he doesn't just give opinions, he backs them with cites and sources (something you won't find In Jones's article). For the Bowers case you find so mysterious, there is a link to an article by an insurance investigator who spoke to (among others) the ambulance attendant who picked Bowers up and the doctor who attended him at the hospital where he died (there apparently wasn't any "doctor...who rode to Dallas in the ambulance with Bowers")- with no support from either of them for Jones's story. You'll notice, too, that the insurance investigator's article names the witnesses- another thing Jones doesn't do.

The whole "mysterious deaths" thing is ridiculous anyway; as McAdams points out, it's just begging the question to list the deaths as evidence for a conspiracy that you must assume first to ever see them as mysterious. And the "six degrees of separation" game being played there is almost beyond belief- I mean, Martin Luther King??? Really??
 
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Henri McPhee said:
"Lee Bowers's testimony is perhaps as explosive as any recorded by the Warren Commission. He was one of the 65 witnesses who saw the President's assassination, and who thought shots were fired from the area of the Grassy Knoll. (The Knoll is west of the Texas School Book Depository Building.)
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That's a crock... he didn't testify to shots coming from the area of the grassy knoll.

Here's his actual testimony:

Mr. BALL - You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street from Main, did you?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I saw that.
Mr. BALL - Then you lost sight of it?
Mr. BOWERS - Right. For a moment.
Mr. BALL - Then you saw it again where?
Mr. BOWERS - It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. BOWERS - I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.
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Bowers made two significant observations which he revealed to the Warren Commission. First, he saw three unfamiliar cars slowly cruising around the parking area in the 35 minutes before the assassination;
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How is cars driving through a parking lot *significant*? That really says a lot; you know, about what qualifies to a conspiracy theorist as significant.
Would people standing on a sidewalk to see the motorcade be significant?
How about someone filming a Presidential motorcade? Significant?


Bowers also observed two unfamiliar men standing on the top of the Knoll at the edge of the parking lot, within 10 or 15 feet of each other. "One man, middle aged or slightly older, fairly heavy set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another man, younger, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket." Both were facing toward Elm and Houston in anticipation of the motorcade.
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Explain why two men who decided to watch the motorcade from the top of the grassy knoll are significant. Explain why your source left out something of significance from Bowers' observation, to wit:

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?
Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.
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So are we to assume what? The grassy knoll assassin set up shop nearby some bystander and shot at JFK totally unconcerned that he would be seen by this bystander?


The two were the only strangers he remembered seeing. His description shows a remarkable similarity to Julia Ann Mercer's description of two unidentified men climbing the Knoll.
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Please quote the Mercer descriptions so we can judge for ourselves.

Curiously, your source leaves out another interesting fact that tends to destroy any mystery to these two men:

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people up on this high ground?
Mr. BOWERS - There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.
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So there were THREE or FOUR men in that general area behind the grassy knoll fence, (Bowers makes the total FOUR or FIVE) and Bowers knew at least one of them. That would make it a less-than-desirable spot from which to shoot the president, woundn't it? (by the way, the movie "JFK" portrays the men in uniform as police officers - ignoring the testimony of Bowers on this point entirely -- because police officers in on the coverup makes for a better story).*

Bowers observed "some commotion" at that spot . . .," " . . . something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around . . . which attracted my eye for some reason which I could not identify." At that moment, a motorcycle policeman left the Presidential motorcade and roared up the Grassy Knoll, straight to where the two mysterious gentlemen were standing. Later, Bowers testified that the "commotion" that caught his eye may have been a "flash of light or smoke."
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The "commotion" he probably saw was Jackie on the trunk and Clint Hill running toward the limo. Or the tallest man seen fleeing the scene who is captured in the background of the Moorman photo standing on the steps during the assassination.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmoorman2.jpg

Compare to what happens to this man on the far left in this film of the assassination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9it1QpbuYk\

The tall man takes off running back up the steps and flees the scene - he is last seen running in a direction that would take him into Lee Bowers' view (Bowers was about 80 yards behind the grassy knoll in a two story building).

So exactly who is suspicious here, except maybe you?

Hank

______

* The Policeman on the knoll springs from Jack White who colorized (with felt tip markers) the black&white Moorman photo to come up with an image that to some suggests a policeman firing at the motorcade from near the knoll. If you check out "Badgeman JFK Jack White" you should learn all about this charade. Every conspiracy theorist's favorite witness - Jean Hill - who before this had never mentioned seeing a policeman on the knoll, soon incorporated seeing a man on the knoll shooting at the limo in her statements to conspiracy conventions, where she was a 'star' witness for the conspiracy. Of course, in her initial statements -- recorded for posterity within the first two hours of the assassination to a news reporter at WBAP -- she flatly denies seeing any shooter:

Q. "Did you see the person who fired the . . ."
A. "No . . . I didn't see any person fire the weapon . . ."
Q. "You only heard it?"
A. "I only heard it."
 
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Henri McPhee said:
My source for that Lee Bowers information can be found here:

http://www.maebrussell.com/Disappearing Witnesses/Disappearing Witnesses.html

It looks like more unsolved and not properly investigated murders to me.
Click to expand...


Why would conspirators go around killing witnesses? Wouldn't that attract attention?

Especially witnesses - like Bowers - that *didn't* say they saw a shooter behind the knoll?
And witnesses - like Bowers - who *weren't sure* where the shots came from?

What is the point of just killing random witnesses whose testimony doesn't point to a conspiracy unless it is twisted beyond recognition (as your cited source did with Bowers' testimony)?

And if there is some drug that can be given to someone to produce a 'strange shock' and cause them to have a motor vehicle accident, why didn't the conspirators simply give that drug to the pilot of Air Force One? They would then save all that nonsense of altering the body, altering the x-rays and autopsy photos, planting a rifle in the TSBD, planting shells in the TSBD, planting a bullet at Parkland hospital, planting fingerprints on Oswald's weapon, planting fragments in the limo traceable to Oswald's weapon, forging photos showing Oswald with the rifle, forging paperwork that shows Oswald ordered the murder weapon, killing witnesses, killing a police officer and framing Oswald for that, planting a jacket that doesn't belong to Oswald to somehow try to implicate him in the crime, forging the Zapruder film, intimidating witnesses, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Do you have a theory (or a suspicion, even) that covers all that?

Or even any of it?

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
Especially witnesses - like Bowers - that *didn't* say they saw a shooter behind the knoll?
And witnesses - like Bowers - who *weren't sure* where the shots came from?
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Conspirator1: Did you see this guy, Lee Bowers? He says he didn't see any shooter and he can't tell where the shots came from.
Conspirator2: We gotta take him. He knows too much!
 
HSienzant said:
That's a crock... he didn't testify to shots coming from the area of the grassy knoll.

Here's his actual testimony:
Quote:
Mr. BALL - You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street from Main, did you?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I saw that.
Mr. BALL - Then you lost sight of it?
Mr. BOWERS - Right. For a moment.
Mr. BALL - Then you saw it again where?
Mr. BOWERS - It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. BOWERS - I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.
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...
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Ha. Never noticed that before, but, of course, you're right. The CTers are playing a little sleight of hand here; in saying "The Knoll is west of the Texas School Book Depository Building" (which is true), they depict Bowers's actual testimony only that the shots could have come from near the overpass (also west of the Depository) as "[he] thought shots were fired from the area of the Grassy Knoll." Of course, since Bowers's position in the railroad tower was almost exactly between the two points he mentions east and west of him (the Depository and the overpass), but directly behind the knoll, it's pretty clear that the one position for the shots he was not pointing to from that testimony was the one right in front of him- the knoll. His whole testimony is inconclusive as to the source of the shots; he himself says the echo is confusing; but, reading his testimony as is, it would be a fairer interpretation to say he ruled out the knoll than to say he thought that was the source.

And that "some commotion" quote CTers love so much is especially ridiculous; a president had just been shot- why would "some commotion" be a mysterious thing?

I wonder if Henri has ever actually been to Dealey Plaza? My wife and I were there last summer- first time for me- and I cannot imagine how anybody who has been there could think that any sensible conspirators would pick such a small, easily-observed area as the Knoll from which to kill a President. "Badge Man" is especially impossible.
 
pgwenthold said:
Conspirator1: Did you see this guy, Lee Bowers? He says he didn't see any shooter and he can't tell where the shots came from.
Conspirator2: We gotta take him. He knows too much!
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I'm still trying to figure out Martin Luther King's connection that made it necessary to kill him.
Conspirator #1: "Do you suppose Dr King knows anything about us whacking John?"
Conspirator #2: "No, but what the heck- we're conspirators, right? It's what we do."
 
turingtest said:
Sorry, I guess I wasn't making my point clear. My question is, do you have anything to support the myth other than the source of it? What you're doing here is similar to what fundie Christians do when they cite the Bible to support the truth of the Bible. Surely you have evidence that these were "unsolved and not properly investigated murders" independent of just the opinion of the guy who first told you so; echo chambers don't make for good research.

Have you looked at any other opinions? For instance, BStrong, just above (in post #5127), gives you a link to McAdams. I know you guys tend to dislike that site, but you'll notice something about it if you bother to read it- he doesn't just give opinions, he backs them with cites and sources (something you won't find In Jones's article). For the Bowers case you find so mysterious, there is a link to an article by an insurance investigator who spoke to (among others) the ambulance attendant who picked Bowers up and the doctor who attended him at the hospital where he died (there apparently wasn't any "doctor...who rode to Dallas in the ambulance with Bowers")- with no support from either of them for Jones's story. You'll notice, too, that the insurance investigator's article names the witnesses- another thing Jones doesn't do.

The whole "mysterious deaths" thing is ridiculous anyway; as McAdams points out, it's just begging the question to list the deaths as evidence for a conspiracy that you must assume first to ever see them as mysterious. And the "six degrees of separation" game being played there is almost beyond belief- I mean, Martin Luther King??? Really??
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I'll say.

Last year after a funeral I attended some of us were talking about who was and who wasn't still around, and a friend of mine noted that I have about as many dead friends and acquaintances as live ones and he wasn'r sure that he wanted to be my friend anymore - the way he stated all this was meant as a joke and taken likewise, but it got me to thinking, and a quick mental list came up with 30 some guys I knew in my approximate age group and profession that aren't here due to natural or other causes.

I don't doubt that some "connect-the-dots" "investigator" could write a pretty fancy CT based on just my history and the actuarial tables for my known associates.
 
turingtest said:
I'm still trying to figure out Martin Luther King's connection that made it necessary to kill him.
Conspirator #1: "Do you suppose Dr King knows anything about us whacking John?"
Conspirator #2: "No, but what the heck- we're conspirators, right? It's what we do."
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Mark Lane said that Martin Luther King was killed by the conspirators because he was an opponent of their plans, same as Kennedy.
 
LSSBB said:
And I say neither was killed by conspirators. How do you know which is right?
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You are.

But we're not talking about what I think; we're talking about what conspiracy theorists think. And they, unfortunately, are more common.

Lane's thesis satisfies the opinions of a certain, prevalent class that is at odds with "the system" and think that social justice has been prevented by an amorphous enemy.
 
Major Major said:
Mark Lane said that Martin Luther King was killed by the conspirators because he was an opponent of their plans, same as Kennedy.
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Kind of makes you wonder why Lane hasn't been rubbed out by the conspiracy, doesn't it? After all, they have no problem knocking off obscure, tenuously-connected folks like Tom Howard, Jim Koethe, and Gary Underhill; they don't mind going to the opposite extreme and taking out public figures like Dr King and RFK; why would they stick at an opponent of their plans like Lane?

I think your word "amorphous" from your later post is a good one for this conspiracy- it appears to conveniently have just enough shape that CTists can define it by their assumptions about its actions, but not quite enough that they need to define it by any evidence for those actions.
 
Major Major said:
Mark Lane said that Martin Luther King was killed by the conspirators because he was an opponent of their plans, same as Kennedy.
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Mark Lane also stated that the Jim Jones/Jonestown slaughter was a CIA Plot.

Mark Lane Stated a lot of things.

Almost all of them pure Paranoid B.S.
 
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