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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Abrams and the GIGO principle

Doesn't dan get paid to do his job? Geez. You'd think he could his own work.
At least he is listening, and he is generally a fair-minded journalist from what I can gather. IMO that puts him a cut or two above some of the journalists who have covered this case. The problem is that is a good deal of pseudo-information available, wiki-style.
 
Except when it's not Anglo. The State Department on behalf of the executive can refuse extradition and request extradition, it still requires compliance of the courts. Usually that is mostly a rubber stamp. Unless it isn't.

For example, in the case of Geisser Bauer v. United States. The courts refused extradition.

http://openjurist.org/627/f2d/745/geisser-bauer-v-united-states

The way I read that report, the court allowed extradition. You are comparing apples with oranges. In the cited case the question was whether the US had fulfilled its obligation in a plea bargain to use best endeavours to persuade Switzerland to withdraw an extradition request. Judgment was given to the US and Switzerland on the point.

What has that to do with anything?
 
Griffin rule

Nencini apparently took into consideration the fact that Sollecito did not testify. One, in some jurisdictions, there is a prohibition against doing so. Two, in Italy the defendant is expected to lie. Therefore, I don't see much difference between making a spontaneous statement and being sworn in. Three, Amanda did testify in front of Massei. Did Nencini factor that into his "reasoning?" I use the word reasoning loosely.
 
Why did you decide not to interrogate Guede?
“For what purpose? He has never confessed and even if we had questioned him, he had the right not to say anything. We did not think it necessary. Instead it seemed important to us to analyze other aspects and in fact we have evaluated and listened to the witnesses on which there were doubts. It is the role of the appeal judges. In four months we have succeeded in arriving at a resolution.”

This seems another Italian theme as explained by Mach but never convincingly. They act like one hour of court time will put them behind schedule. Maybe they should work a couple hundred days a year and not take months off for vacation.

Maybe he has seen the light or maybe he work trip himself up. Nencini said elsewhere that all the expert reports were in the jury room and the lay jurors had to read them - was that for the first time?

What witnesses did they listen to? Aviello?
 
If I read Rose's article correctly, Bongiorno is mostly ticked off about her "legal strategy" being publicly criticized.

I wish she were criticizing more than that... but much may have been lost in translation.

Putting aside the article for a moment, surely it's not news to her that her client would get an AMAZING deal if he pointed the finger at Amanda. I doubt many questions would be asked.

I've thought about this. I've truly wondered what would happen if someone made Raff a deal he couldn't resist. He's always had that option... but stakes are higher now. He's looking at long prison sentence and Amanda may not be.

Of course, it would require some kind of irregular procedure, but I imagine even at this late date the creative minds of the legal system could come up with some kind of deal for Raff. What a circus that would be, but it's been circus all along...

Of course, I'm engaging in wild, wild conjecture. But I honestly don't see the prospect of Raff saving his ass as ENTIRELY out of the question. I can see Papa Sollecito lobbying for it.
 
It seems, Italian press is catching on that this is a wrongful conviction:

Although from the Christian Science Monitor, it quotes The Rome daily La Repubblica:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0201/Will-Amanda-Knox-be-extradited

As Knox awaits her fate, the questions over who killed Kercher will continue. Knox's supporters, for example, released an electronic book arguing that Guede acted alone in the killing. Kercher's siblings wonder if they'll ever know what really happened.

Some in Italy, however, seem to be coming to one conclusion: the prosecutors didn't have much evidence. The Rome daily La Repubblica wrote Friday that the third verdict confirms that the case "from the very beginning has been judged more on the basis of sensation than actual evidence."
It suggested Knox and Sollecito had "always been the perfect culprits," and that "in reality, what is probably more at stake than assigning responsibility for a murder is the prestige of a part of the magistrature and the Umbrian police."

The important thing is that it is Italians who are waking up to this potential civil war within Italian judiciary.... "the prestige of a part of the magistrature and the Umbrian police."
 
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The way I read that report, the court allowed extradition. You are comparing apples with oranges. In the cited case the question was whether the US had fulfilled its obligation in a plea bargain to use best endeavours to persuade Switzerland to withdraw an extradition request. Judgment was given to the US and Switzerland on the point.

What has that to do with anything?

The court turned down the State three different times. It was the court that decided the issue to deny extradition and it was another court that decided to reverse that decision. NOT the Executive.

The point is that Executive branch/State Department has the authority to deny extradition at any time during the process. The executive is working on behalf of the foreign government according to the treaty. The State Department serves at the pleasure of the President. They work for him. But the courts can refuse the Executive or the State Department's request to extradite on legal issues.
 
Yes, it's quite interesting. Nencini could have provided convincing reasoning for why the accused weren't involved, but he doesn't believe that to be the truth. So... he will have to come up with another report to explain a guilty verdict. His solution will be (1) don't mention the acquittal, and (2) use Massei as a template.

That means Guede decided to rape Meredith, and Amanda/Raffaele broke off their love-making to side with Guede. Choice of extreme evil exacerbated by smoking pot. Done and done.

Except for the matter of bringing the accused back into custody on the strength of this judicial finding. That will be non-trivial, I predict.

Did Massei write that Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room making love when they heard some commotion from Meredith's room so they went into Meredith's room naked to help Rudy conquer and sexually assault Meredith? Is that why there was no blood on Amanda's and Raffaele's clothes and none of their clothes-fiber found in Meredith's room? Or am I conflating what Massei wrote with one of Mignini's happy fantasies?
 
I have never understood how Guedes trial can be tied into AK and RS trial when they could not participate in that trial. How can RG make statements that create prejudice towards AK and RS and not be cross examined on those statements? I guess I will never understand how decisions made in his trial are automatic facts in AK and RS trial before their trial ever began.

Could Guede have been called as a defense witness during the original trial? Maybe he could have been worn down under aggressive cross-examination, but at the very least he could have testified that "I was there, and I never saw Amanda and Raffaele."

With respect, as an individual my ability or inability to argue the points of this case has had no bearing on its passage through the Italian justice system or indeed whether it will end with Italy requesting Amanda’s extradition. There are people who are either better qualified or have devoted a great deal of time going through the minutia of the case, nonetheless a fair question would be; why didn’t either defence team use or follow up on any of the information freely available in various sites?

To me, the absence of cross-examination is the most frustrating aspect of how the trials have been run. Cross-examination is how lawyers in the United States win their cases. I can't imagine a trial without it.

Cross-examination is basically what we have all been doing in the forums for several years. We ask questions that by rights should break the case but that never seem to occur to the Italian lawyers, much less be used as strategies by them.

Their system prolongs the process of a prosecution as opposed to resolving it. How helpless the defense lawyers must feel.
 
The court turned down the State three different times. It was the court that decided the issue to deny extradition and it was another court that decided to reverse that decision. NOT the Executive.

Who asked for extradition to be turned that was granted by the court? The Attorney General asked and he is part of the Executive. Therefore it was the Executive that decided to deny extradition and the court allowed it.

The point is that Executive branch/State Department has the authority to deny extradition at any time during the process. The executive is working on behalf of the foreign government according to the treaty. The State Department serves at the pleasure of the President. They work for him. But the courts can refuse the Executive or the State Department's request to extradite on legal issues.

If the executive can deny it at any time then what was the executive asking of the courts?

You do understand that the executive through the Attorney General wanted to make the deal which included not extraditing. This case was a bit complicated because the deal involved a US prosecution for a very serious offense and they hoped to use these people to get to dealers in France and Switzerland. Any plea deal needs court approval for the domestic charges.
 
Who asked for extradition to be turned that was granted by the court? The Attorney General asked and he is part of the Executive. Therefore it was the Executive that decided to deny extradition and the court allowed it.



If the executive can deny it at any time then what was the executive asking of the courts?

You do understand that the executive through the Attorney General wanted to make the deal which included not extraditing. This case was a bit complicated because the deal involved a US prosecution for a very serious offense and they hoped to use these people to get to dealers in France and Switzerland. Any plea deal needs court approval for the domestic charges.


I understand this Grinder. I'd say so? But it would only continue this tangential discussion.
 
To me, the absence of cross-examination is the most frustrating aspect of how the trials have been run. Cross-examination is how lawyers in the United States win their cases. I can't imagine a trial without it.

Cross-examination is basically what we have all been doing in the forums for several years. We ask questions that by rights should break the case but that never seem to occur to the Italian lawyers, much less be used as strategies by them.

Their system prolongs the process of a prosecution as opposed to resolving it. How helpless the defense lawyers must feel.
Frustrating alright when Rudy claims to have witnessed this murder.
 
If I read Rose's article correctly, Bongiorno is mostly ticked off about her strategy" being publicly criticized.

I wish she were criticizing more than that... but much may have been lost in translation.

Putting aside the article for a moment, surely it's not news to her that her client would get an AMAZING deal if he pointed the finger at Amanda. I doubt many questions would be asked.

I've thought about this. I've truly wondered what would happen if someone made Raff a deal he couldn't resist. He's always had that option... but stakes are higher now. He's looking at long prison sentence and Amanda may not be.

Of course, it would require some kind of irregular procedure, but I imagine even at this late date the creative minds of the legal system could come up with some kind of deal for Raff. What a circus that would be, but it's been circus all along...

Of course, I'm engaging in wild, wild conjecture. But I honestly don't see the prospect of Raff saving his ass as ENTIRELY out of the question. I can see Papa Sollecito lobbying for it.

If Raffaele is offered a deal and still does not turn against Amanda, this raises an important question. Amanda and Raffaelle supposedly committed a brutal murder together after they had only been dating six days. The assumption is that a couple who barely know each other will not have much loyalty to each other and will turn against each other. Why did this not happen with Amanda and Raffaele? The only time Raffaele went against Amanda was under police pressure in the interrogation. In six years Amanda and Raffaele have remained loyal to each other, have stayed friends and have not turned against each other. Is it credible that a couple who committed a murder after knowing each other only six days would do this?
 
To me, the absence of cross-examination is the most frustrating aspect of how the trials have been run. Cross-examination is how lawyers in the United States win their cases. I can't imagine a trial without it.

While duly frustrating, I think even more is the idea that if you have things compatible with someone that's good enough to go on the side of guilt. A finger print should match not be compatible. It's as if in Italy if you throw enough spaghetti on the wall and some of it doesn't fall off immediately that's as good as sticking.

Cross-examination is basically what we have all been doing in the forums for several years. We ask questions that by rights should break the case but that never seem to occur to the Italian lawyers, much less be used as strategies by them.

Once again it seem this is a cultural thing. People either are truth tellers and can't be doubted i.e. witnesses while defendants are allowed and expected to lie. So why ask Rudy anything because he will lie and even if he told exactly how it came down without the kids, it wouldn't matter.

Their system prolongs the process of a prosecution as opposed to resolving it. How helpless the defense lawyers must feel.

You mean because of carpal tunnel from counting all their money?
 
The court turned down the State three different times. It was the court that decided the issue to deny extradition and it was another court that decided to reverse that decision. NOT the Executive.

The point is that Executive branch/State Department has the authority to deny extradition at any time during the process. The executive is working on behalf of the foreign government according to the treaty. The State Department serves at the pleasure of the President. They work for him. But the courts can refuse the Executive or the State Department's request to extradite on legal issues.
OK I guess we're heading right into the teeth of the issues thrown up by checks and balances of constitutional law. The executive has a foot in the world beyond the jurisdiction of the US courts. It makes treaties with foreign powers and must be seen to honour it's treaty obligations if it wants to make more treaties or expects observance of other countries' obligations. Extradition treaties have obvious advantages for both parties since, without them, criminals could escape justice simply by fleeing the jurisdiction.

On the other hand, the US guarantees it's citizens and residents fundamental constitutional rights of liberty, due process, freedom from arbitrary arrest etc. so there is a clear and obvious tension between two competing policy considerations. It is in the interests of US citizens to be free from unfair procedures but it is also in their interests to be protected from crime. Extradition arrangements serve the latter purpose by ensuring that fleeing the jurisdiction does not put miscreants beyond the reach of the law.

In our specific case, Amanda has been convicted in Italy. The US has a treaty with Italy which says in plain terms that extradition is a formality to be handled by the executive. The treaty confers no probable cause protection to persons convicted in Italy. It simply sets out the papers that need to be supplied. The question for an American judge from whom a person in Amanda's position seeks redress is: is the court concerned with the merits of the case against her or only with whether the (simple) formalities of extradition have been complied with? If the former, her constitutional rights are properly safeguarded but the US position in its relations with Italy and others is prejudiced and vice versa if the latter.

What we want is authority on how these tensions are being resolved in contemporary jurisprudence. I doubt we should expect to find clear and compelling authority either way.
 
OK I guess we're heading right into the teeth of the issues thrown up by checks and balances of constitutional law. The executive has a foot in the world beyond the jurisdiction of the US courts. It makes treaties with foreign powers and must be seen to honour it's treaty obligations if it wants to make more treaties or expects observance of other countries' obligations. Extradition treaties have obvious advantages for both parties since, without them, criminals could escape justice simply by fleeing the jurisdiction.

On the other hand, the US guarantees it's citizens and residents fundamental constitutional rights of liberty, due process, freedom from arbitrary arrest etc. so there is a clear and obvious tension between two competing policy considerations. It is in the interests of US citizens to be free from unfair procedures but it is also in their interests to be protected from crime. Extradition arrangements serve the latter purpose by ensuring that fleeing the jurisdiction does not put miscreants beyond the reach of the law.

In our specific case, Amanda has been convicted in Italy. The US has a treaty with Italy which says in plain terms that extradition is a formality to be handled by the executive. The treaty confers no probable cause protection to persons convicted in Italy. It simply sets out the papers that need to be supplied. The question for an American judge from whom a person in Amanda's position seeks redress is: is the court concerned with the merits of the case against her or only with whether the (simple) formalities of extradition have been complied with? If the former, her constitutional rights are properly safeguarded but the US position in its relations with Italy and others is prejudiced and vice versa if the latter.

What we want is authority on how these tensions are being resolved in contemporary jurisprudence. I doubt we should expect to find clear and compelling authority either way.

Very well said. I almost think you might be an American. This is one of those things that could be very simple or very complicated depending on the judge that oversees the extradition hearing. I can see a judge rubber stamping the process and also can see a judge wanting to delve into all the dirty details and really getting into every detail.

Grinder made a comment that a judge wouldn't say no to the Executive branch if he wanted to advance his career. But I strongly believe that Federal Court judges (as opposed to State or Municipal court judges) in particular are interested in "interesting cases" and since Federal judges are appointed for life and cannot be removed from office except by impeachment, retirement or death. The Constitution actually deliberately made them beholden to no one including the President so they have a great deal of freedom and discretion.

And Federal Court judges actually earn about the same amount of money.

So in this case. The lowest Federal court in Amanda's jurisdiction is the Western District Court in Seattle. So a judge would rule there and the loser could appeal on the next level which is the 9th circuit court in San Francisco and then they could appeal to the US Supreme Court.
But it is very possible that the present Executive Obama could pursue extradition and it could be in court until he left office and his replacement could deny it after the US Supreme Court said.."go ahead extradite her."
 
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