Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[Dcdrac]

I have been to Regent's Park Mosqueand the Mosque on Commercial Road I too saw those marches, but I also know that cannot be taken as representative of every muslim I was likely to meet.

If you know most muslims want to live in peace then you will know making blanket assertions about them is just plain wrong.

 

[raff55]

'This largely drawn from Hadiths, the validity of which is questioned by many islamic scholars, try talking with them before making blanket assertions about islam and muslims.'

Why do you assume that I haven't ?

'For the record I am aethiast but I do not approve of scapegoating entire groups of people just because of the actions of a handful of nutters'.

Where have I done this ?

You find as many interpretations of the hadiths across the differing scholars you talk with'.


And that is the crucial part.

 

[DC]

what experiences did you have then?

I was in London in 1998 when thousands of bearded men burned a book they hadn't read and demanded the punishment of the author.

I listened in disbelief to a musician I had admired calling for his death.

I have tried to understand why. I have read the quran and engaged in debate with many Muslims.
I was again in London last year and encountered a 'Muslim Patrol'.

I do not know how many times I have to say it but here I go again I know most Muslims just want to live in peace but that is not who we are dealing with.[/QUOTE]

well when we are talking about Islam, we are actually mainly dealing with those Moslems, as they are the vast majority. when we talk about islamic terrorists , extremists and fanatics. then we are not dealing with those peacefull Moslems.

 

[Mister Agenda]

'Once again applying group guilt to a whole group of people using the actions of a couple of fanatics.

On a doctrinal level and this I know because I have read the Qu'ran, as soon as they murdered that solider in pure islamic doctrine they stopped being muslims.

Like in christianity murder is a sin in islam.'

Your interpretation is different from theirs and many other previous martyrs.
I too have read the Qu'ran and many, many Hadiths. Crucially they did not see it as murder but as war. They are confident of there place in paradise. Where did they and others get this idea from ?

If Islam never existed, we would be having trouble with people from the Middle East and North Africa. People of the region have long-standing grievances with the West that began before Mohammed was born and have only gotten worse in the last eighty years. If they were Orthodox Christians they would have little trouble finding religious justifications for retaliation against a West that has, among other things, in living memory, replaced a leftist reformer with a brutal dictator and currently militarily supports a harsh monarchy.

Thirty years ago, if asked to link religion and terrorism, most people would have brought up Catholics vs. Protestants. There are geopolitical roots for the current linkage of Islam and terrorism; and as the saying goes, we may be making enemies faster that we can kill them. Fundamentalist Islam, particularly Salafism, can be a toxic belief system, but it's a weed fertilized by blowback.

 

[Dcdrac]

Maybe try talking with muslims

http://www.freemuslims.org/about/

The key point is the vast majority are not the nutters they are lumped in with, and just want to be left in peace to get on with their lives and generally do just that and most muslims would agree the actions of the fanatics are vile and evil if anyone bothered to ask them.

 

[IDB87]

People of the region have long-standing grievances with the West that began before Mohammed was born and have only gotten worse in the last eighty years.

Bolded - eh? What? Care to elaborate?

 

[Ryokan]

I was in London in 1998 when thousands of bearded men burned a book they hadn't read and demanded the punishment of the author.

In 1998 I was in Bosnia, in the aftermath of one of the greatest genocides of modern times. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims were killed, massacred, tortured, raped and put into death camps simply for being Muslims. 1998 was also the start of the attempted genocide of the Muslims in Kosovo.

I saw horrible things in Bosnia, things most people living in peaceful countries wouldn't believe. Black dried blood on the walls and floors of concentration camps, different from the nazi ones only in scale. Mass graves. The eyes of people who had their entire family raped and killed in front of them. Young teenage girls who had to take up arms or suffer at the hands of the Serbs.

So when people tell me there's something unique about the evils of Islam, I will have none of it.

 

[raff55]

'A reasonable critique of Islam might observe that Salafism seems to be a common characteristic of Sunni terrorist organizations and advocate for Salafism being discouraged, perhaps by lending support to peaceful organizations based on rival schools. It's a specific observation with a suggested course of action that can be carried out.'

Yes I agree with this. We have to support the peaceful route. How do we do this? I am uncertain but I do know that we have to address the ideology.

More interpretation and cherry-picking is exactly what Islam needs, but the Islamophobe doesn't acknowledge that sort of thing as 'legitimate Islam', as though they trump Islamic scholars and their followers when it comes to Islamic authenticity. '

Do you mean 'there is no such thing as moderate Islam' school of thought ?
I disagree with it.
There are 100's of millions practicing their religion peaceably without recourse to violence. This requires 'interpretation and cherry-picking' and I'm all for it.

It is those who don't practice it peaceably that are the problem. Saying there isn't a problem within Islam does everyone a disservice.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Bolded - eh? What? Care to elaborate?

Roman conquest and occupation.

 

[Dcdrac]

instead of just picking on the one religion and the fanatics that claim to act in its name be consistent, highlight the nutters who claim to be christians who attack Doctors in the US who carry out abortions and send death threats to people, maybe point out the almost ceaseless attack on science by all religious fundamentalists?

How about the Bhuddists who have been attacking christians in Sri Lanka?

Be consistant, three are fanatics in all religions who will go to extremes and have done so, that must mean there is a problem in all the religions.

 

[raff55]

'instead of just picking on the one religion and the fanatics that claim to act in its name be consistent, highlight the nutters who claim to be christians who attack Doctors in the US who carry out abortions and send death threats to people, maybe point out the almost ceaseless attack on science by all religious fundamentalists?

How about the Bhuddists who have been attacking christians in Sri Lanka?

Be consistant, three are fanatics in all religions who will go to extremes and have done so, that must mean there is a problem in all the religions.'

Yes there is but the topic is Islam and are they all equivalent ?

 

[Octavo]

Absolute tosh I do it every day with colleagues at work, who also critique my athesiam none of us have come to blows yet.

I see. So those riots in Denmark had nothing at all to do with Islam?

i guess that is true for many islamic countries. but not so in the Country i am living. and i do it very often at work. where the majority is actually Moslems. and the worst i got to hear was something like , oh you Atheists... and twisting eyes.

Sadly its not my experience.

Mine either.

Taking the example of the minority and their actions and using them to say an entire group of people behave like this is simply applying guilt group to the majority who are innocent of these things.

Has anyone in this thread done that?

I have actually been to a mosque and discussed islamic beleifs with a iamams it was cordial and we agreed to differ.

Yeah, and I bet some of your best friends are black too. Why do you think this anecdote is of any value?

 

[DC]

I see. So those riots in Denmark had nothing at all to do with Islam?





Mine either.



Has anyone in this thread done that?



Yeah, and I bet some of your best friends are black too. Why do you think this anecdote is of any value?

what are your experiances with Moslems then?

and why do you think anecdotes of violent fanatics is of any value?

 

[Craig B]

CraigB

Much as enjoy your homely little stories about Glasgow what has this got to do with this Islamic topic?

Read for comprehension; It is unique today in the level of Violence.

The "stories" have to do with your statement that

That is the Quran and Hadiths which are incompatible with a modern secular society.
It is pronounced as perfect and provides religious belief, social behavior rules, political strictures, economic disciplines it even intrudes into sexual behavior and dietary needs ... Islam, amongst all the major religions, is unique.

So, then it was unique in the scope of its "central texts". I show that not to be so. What do you do? Tell me my arguments are irrelevant because the uniqueness is in the level of violence. Neat switch. But of course I can deal with your statements only one at a time, if you don't mind.

 

[Dcdrac]

I see. So those riots in Denmark had nothing at all to do with Islam?





Mine either.



Has anyone in this thread done that?



Yeah, and I bet some of your best friends are black too. Why do you think this anecdote is of any value?

reading between th eliens it is clear what the message is, and I am stating as a matter of record that I have actually talked with adherents and Mosque officials before froming a view on them and their co religionists, outside of hysteria generated by the actions of handful of fanatics.

After 9/11 I realised I knew very little about Islam other than muslims prayed on Fridays toward mecca so I set out to find out and find out just how complex and multi layered it is and that is what informs my views that is no different nor special than any other religion and that they all have their own share of dangerous fanatics, and to say islam is somehow more problematic is a response generated by hysteria and not rational discussion.

 

[raff55]

Craig b
'But of course I can deal with your statements only one at a time, if you don't mind'.


Context. Context. Context.

This is the problem in your very long whatever it was, took various posts I made in response to other specific lines of discussion from other posters and mixed them up. Then you made comments on them that I'm not sure that I followed.


Anyway I have been avoiding work and I need to get back to it. Also I feel I'm starting to repeat my arguments now.
I have enjoyed the debate and I have learned quite a few things. Thanks everyone.

 

[Craig B]

... Yes there is but the topic is Islam and are they all equivalent ?

So we're back to that. The subject is Islam, so nothing else can be referred to. But you have repeatedly been stating that Islam is "unique". Do you really mean that if you say that Thing A is unique, and somebody else comes along with Things B and C that are the same, thus proving you wrong, you are entitled to reply: "I'm talking only about Thing A". If you can do that, well you can prove that anything you fancy is unique, or not equivalent to anything else.

"The Quran is unique because it prescribes dietary and sexual behaviour."
"It's not unique. The Torah does that too."
"I'm not talking about the Torah, just the Quran."

Great stuff!

 

[Cleon]

The Muslim apologists are ignoring the elephant in the room, rioting over cartoons, beheadings and suicide bombings that happen every day. They also seem to think that knowing a few Muslims makes them experts in all thing Islam.

^^^This will be called Islamophobic.^^^

There are something on the order of 3,000,000 Muslims in the United States. Unless I missed a major news story, the number of suicide bombings, beheadings, and rioting over cartoons hovers pretty close to zero. Certainly nowhere near "every day." So it's not so much an elephant as a flea.

I'm glad you realize that your post is Islamophobic - the first step to fixing the problem is recognizing that you have one.

 

[zugzwang]

But who is an expert in all things Islam? I suppose some imams might be, but then there are many varieties of Islam, so probably he would not be knowledgeable about all of them.

My best friend was a Sufi, so I knew a bit about it from him, but he wasn't an expert, and I certainly am not.

I suppose some historians are?

 

[A'isha]

The Muslims here in Birmingham must be awfully busy people to manage to get in all that rioting, beheading, and suicide bombing inbetween their community bowling, nature hike outings, ski trips, and annual Ramadan open house.