Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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The US is the epicenter, it’s being felt pretty much across all the English speaking developed nations. I am fully aware that once you get outside the English speaking world it’s equally likely to be the far left as the far right.

In Latin America it is more a matter for the moderated left, and some populists on the right that believe to be leftists. But I have to say that unlike the anglosphere, those pockets of denialism are almost never institutional. There's no political branch declaring AGW to be a scam, though groups of members may think that way.

I think it is a cultural issue. Creationism is not possible in a Catholic+Atheist background. Neither AGW denialism. But I wouldn't be surprised if evangelical groups, so active nowadays, are promoting AGW denialism, as they started with creationism. My perception is that their entire view of the world and themselves is challenged when a world warming by human actions suggests them a breach of the most basic contract among "The Lord" and mankind by the divine abandonment of the very fabric the world is made of, hence, it is not possible for that to happen -and they don't want to hear a word about it-.
 
...a bit of delusion snipped....
Wow - the delusion that the greenhouse effect (how CO2 heats the surface) does not explain the greenhouse effect, r-j :eek:!
O maybe the inane demand that we explain every detail of the greenhouse effect to you starting from the QM involved!
Or maybe the total inability to Wikipedia articles:
Greenhouse effect
The greenhouse effect is a process by which thermal radiation from a planetary surface is absorbed by atmospheric greenhouse gases, and is re-radiated in all directions. Since part of this re-radiation is back towards the surface and the lower atmosphere, it results in an elevation of the average surface temperature above what it would be in the absence of the gases.[1][2]
...
The Earth receives energy from the Sun in the form UV, visible, and near IR radiation, most of which passes through the atmosphere without being absorbed. Of the total amount of energy available at the top of the atmosphere (TOA), about 50% is absorbed at the Earth's surface. Because it is warm, the surface radiates far IR thermal radiation that consists of wavelengths that are predominantly much longer than the wavelengths that were absorbed (the overlap between the incident solar spectrum and the terrestrial thermal spectrum is small enough to be neglected for most purposes). Most of this thermal radiation is absorbed by the atmosphere and re-radiated both upwards and downwards; that radiated downwards is absorbed by the Earth's surface. This trapping of long-wavelength thermal radiation leads to a higher equilibrium temperature than if the atmosphere were absent.

This highly simplified picture of the basic mechanism needs to be qualified in a number of ways, none of which affect the fundamental process.
 
So you agree that CO2 does not warm the atmosphere, but only the surface?
I never said that so no, r-j.
It is obvious to anyone that any radiation that is radiated toward the surface passes through the atmosphere and can warm the atmosphere. The warming of the surface will also warm the atmosphere.

I hope that this is not the rather inane idea that because some people do not fully understand some climate science that all climate science (and so AGW) is false :D.
 
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All of which is lies of course.
The truth remains that there is no scientific theory called "Theory of Global Warming", r-j.
The truth remains that there exist web pages with the words global, warming and theory on them :jaw-dropp!
The truth remains that there exist references to the idea (theory) of global warming :jaw-dropp!

So if you want to discuss a scientific issue, it's certainly prudent to be able to define and explain what you are talking about, asking about, or moaning and wringing your hands over, r-j. The first step is to cite the scientific literature on the scientific theory called "Theory of Global Warming".
 
(citizenzen): "The only other force that comes close to religious faith is political affiliation. But even then, it's unclear to me why those on "the right" would see it as an opportunity to deny somethings existence as opposed to fighting over the best solution. There's plenty of room for debate in that realm."
He’s primarily politically motivated.

While it frequently intersects with religious issues like the denial of evolution, the denial of climate change typically comes more from the libertarian contingent of the far right. It arises from the dogma that market failures either can’t exist or can’t be create problems.

Climate change creates something of a cognitive dissidence for people who believe markets are infallible because it’s a tangible example of a market failure that has huge consequence and requires government action to deal with.
Rather than modify their position on the infallibility of markets it becomes easier to deny the science that is challenging their belief. It’s not really all that different than denial of evolution based on religious belief especially if you interpret the faith in market infallibility as a form of religious belief.
JREF moderators have now tolerated pages of speculation about the motivations of AGW skeptics by the AGW faithful. When I answered a question about why people with relevant expertise accepted the AGW faith, moderators move my speculation (I'm not a mind reader) to Abandon All Hope. Since they have allowed speculation by the AGW faithful about the motives of skeptics, I will allow myself here to address the comments of Citizenzen and Lomiller.
a) Use of the terms "left" and "right" to describe political positions indicates a one-dimensional view of the multi-dimensional political continuum to which I do not subscribe.
b) AGW skeptics do not deny "climate change". The opposite is the case. Skeptics do not see that any new factor (i.e., anthropogenic CO2) is needed to explain the recent (late twentieth century) temperature increase, given variability inferred from historical accounts (Roman warm period, medieval warm period, little ice age) and geological reconstructions (Russ, Mindel, Wurm glaciations, etc.).
c) If astronomers were to locate an Earth-crossing asteroid and to predict a reasonable probability of an impact with Earth, I expect that many AGW skeptics would have no problem with a crash government-funded response. The difference does not depend on views of the place of markets versus government but on differences between the assessment of the science behind "climate science" and the science behind astronomical predictions.
d)Consider the discussion (for example) between my comment here... and
here and
here and
here and
here: "unhealthily invested in their own image ... so prominent in the denier world shows how poverty-stricken they've always been for content and talent." and here: "...pseudoscience content..." and
here: "...clear the taste out your mouth after discussing Dear Anthony...what blight his blog is...." and
here: " ... denialist rants ... everything they say is straight from the memes that fly around the denialist blogs. There is not an original thought provided, apart from the odd piece of 'common sense'." and
here: "What's the saying, ah yes; 'I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.'
Problem is, too large a segment of the population just gets a kick out of watching pig wrasslin!" and
here: "The problem is, these pigs are in charge of our country and making policy." and
here: "and an oily pig is indeed a slippery character."
and here...
(Malcolm): "There's little point to a discussion of differences unless we get agreement on basic terms. That's where the discussion begins. I suggest also that relentless ad hominem degrades the prospect for progress in the argument."
The AGW faithful demonstrate how to construct and maintain a climate consensus: by ad hominem against skeptics and assembling a supportive horde of brainless invertebrates.
"Pig" yourself.
 
That nobody understands it? Not much at all really. But as to how CO2 warms, that is certainly an important matter.

The fundamental issue is that increasing CO2 levels reduce the amount of IR that escapes uselessly (as far as this debate is concerned) away from Earth. You know, photons drifting lost in the eternal void of deep space. I suppose a few might hit The Moon and other places, but they won't care much.

Whether that saved energy resides for a while in the CO2 as increased kinetic energy or is transferred to other molecules through collisions or is re-radiated to warm other 'stuff' is neither here nor there. The precise mechanism is of no importance.

Heat is a measure of the average kinetic energy of 'some stuff of interest to us'. If a source of that 'goes away forever to where we don't need to care about it' then there will be less heat 'where we do care about it'.

Hope that deep technical analysis helps :)
 
AGW skeptics do not deny "climate change". The opposite is the case. Skeptics do not see that any new factor (i.e., anthropogenic CO2) is needed to explain the recent (late twentieth century) temperature increase, given variability inferred from historical accounts (Roman warm period, medieval warm period, little ice age) and geological reconstructions (Russ, Mindel, Wurm glaciations, etc.)..
You are right, Malcolm Kirkpatrick. AGW skeptics are not (usually!) in denial of climate change. There have been rare occasions when they have stated that global warming is not happening or has stopped.
AGW skeptics are in denial of climate science. This is the climate science that shows that current global warming
* needs the CO2 produced by us in order to be explained. The human fingerprint in global warming
* is not explained by natural variability. It's a natural cycle
* has exceeded historical accounts (Roman warm period, medieval warm period). How does the Medieval Warm Period compare to current global temperatures?
* is nothing to do with Russ, Mindel, Wurm glaciations, etc. (it is a warming!)

You should be aware that that variability is evidence that the sensitivity of the climate is high and so that more CO2 will have bigger effects according to the AGW skeptics than the scientific consensus.
 
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M-K do you have any actual climate science to discuss or will you just continue to whinge about moderating and how your posts get dumped where they belong.

Now how about you answer a simple question regarding AGW so the readers can know where you stand.

Does CO2 trap IR in the atmosphere?.
 
Perhaps now we can move on to the next questions and debates that Global Warming will present, instead of arguing over whether it is real or not.
Nothing is stopping you, or anyone else, from solving the problem of fossil fuels. Or discussing how bad it will all be, or really saying anything at all.
 
Consequences

While the relationship to drought is still being examined ....no question some areas will get hammered and being right now by longer hot spells and more extreme conditions....changes in hydrology are early markers....

California just now
Parched California hunts for water in unusual places

21:55 28 January 2014 by Hal Hodson

Water is running low in California. Reservoirs are receding, leaving lake beds cracking in the warm winter sun. Snowpack in the Sierra Nevada mountains, traditionally a third of the state's water supply, has dropped to 12 per cent of its normal level. 2013 was the driest year in more than a century, and the resulting water shortages are providing a glimpse of California's future in a warming world.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...for-water-in-unusual-places.html#.Uuho-Hn0BiU

Australia
Heatwaves in Australia are becoming more frequent, hotter and are lasting longer because of climate change, a report released today by the Climate Council says.

The interim findings of the report, titled Australian Heatwaves: Hotter, Longer, Earlier and More Often, come as southern Australia swelters through a heatwave, with the temperature in Adelaide today forecast to hit 46 degrees Celsius.

The report says heat records are now happening three times more often than cold records, and that the number of hot days across Australia has "more than doubled".

It says the duration and frequency of heatwaves increased between 1971 and 2008, and the hottest days have become hotter.

And it predicts that future heatwaves will last up to three days longer on average, they will happen more often, and the highest temperatures will rise further.

"It is clear that climate change is making heatwaves more frequent and severe," report co-author Professor Will Steffen said in a statement.
For the first time, the Bureau of Meteorology has provided a national definition of a heatwave.

It says there are three grades of heatwave, with severe and extreme posing the most serious risk.

"Heatwaves have become hotter and longer and they are starting earlier in the season."

more
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-16/australian-heatwaves-getting-hotter-and-longer/5202272

Instead of discussing approaches to mitigation some have their heads buried in word salad of no scientific merit and think they are accomplished little bunnies..........:rolleyes:
 
You see? Nobody can stop you from discussing the state of the doomed planet.
 
Now who's being alarmist? The planet is not 'doomed'. Human ability to maintain our present standard of living and support the development of other regions is what is endangered.
 
If we manage the problem as Sweden and others are doing there is no reason not to have a vibrant industrial civilization AND a carbon neutral one with the climate similar to the Holocene Optimum about 8,000 years ago and about where we would be if we get on with reducing emissions.

Paying attention to the chattering class who just natter to preen is a waste of everyones' time in a science forum.

There is a good thread on what biome management can do. We know SO2 could and ( maybe is ) slowing the onset but it comes with serious downsides.

First step ....as even Exxon and other hold outs finally have done....admit there is a problem
...it's getting warmer, we're responsible and identify those most at risk..

Second step....develop a variety of strategies to deal with the problem and not make it worse for current and future generations while moving toward carbon neutral in a reasonable time frame...Sweden thinks they can do it by 2050.

If we could get the stupids out of the bog of step one denial of climate change, denial that it's anthro and noise generation for it's own sake, then maybe a serious discussion could be had on step two.

Forecast for the latter not looking good. :mad:
 
TWhether that saved energy resides for a while in the CO2 as increased kinetic energy or is transferred to other molecules through collisions or is re-radiated to warm other 'stuff' is neither here nor there. The precise mechanism is of no importance.
Maybe to you, but it matters a great deal to science, and especially the theories and models that try to predict how warming will happen. If we don't know the mechanism of how CO2 causes warming, there is no way to attribute causation to an increase in CO2.
 
Now who's being alarmist? The planet is not 'doomed'.
It's just humor, even when you see somebody who is serious about it, it's still just a joke.

Human ability to maintain our present standard of living and support the development of other regions is what is endangered.
That isn't supported by any evidence.
 
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. If we don't know the mechanism of how CO2 causes warming, there is no way to attribute causation to an increase in CO2.

Big "If" considering we do know and have known for a long time. CO2 is transparent to visible light and opaque to IR. Much like glass, which lets visible light through but is insulative to heat. (IR)

PS A bit of trivia. That's why they call it a greenhouse gas. It works just like the glass walls of a greenhouse.

This is so basic it is taught in grade school. Why you continually have problems with it is beyond me. :confused:
 
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