Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Strozzi]

Fungible is a great word but I don't think Curatolo is fungible. The ISC said he wasn't fungible and it's just tough if Nencini doesn't like it.

How can he be fungible? Don't Italians embalm the deceased?

 

[Diocletus]

states he saw them from 9:27 until just before midnight but Massei moved it to 11:30 because that's when the disco buses would normally be gone.

Do you have a quote for this? I am interested in the 9:27 reference.

 

[Strozzi]

Galati on Curatolo:
It is perhaps not accidental that this paragraph makes no sense - quite apart from the extraordinary accuracy part.

Quote:
To highlight the witness’ extraordinary accuracy there is, amongst other things, the fact that two members of the Perugia Scientific Police who on November 2, 2007 went on reconnaissance with equipment, Assistant Palmieri and Assistant Montagna, leaving the Questura [=police headquarters] to go to Via della Pergola where there had been a crime reported ‚around 1:40 PM – 1:45 PM‛ (cf. statements of Chief Insp. Claudio Cantagalli and Asst Chief Gioa Brocci, at the hearing of April 23, 2009, p. 86 to p. 126). [/QUOTE]

I guess the purpose of Gelati's above testimony is to prove to the court that Curatolo was possessed with extraordinary accuracy because he said he noticed the police in white suits headed to the crime scene the day the crime was discovered. I am glad the police looked both ways before they crossed the street, otherwise they might have been hit by a Holloween eve disco bus taking costumed revelers to the discos.

 

[Planigale]

Quote:
To highlight the witness’ extraordinary accuracy there is, amongst other things, the fact that two members of the Perugia Scientific Police who on November 2, 2007 went on reconnaissance with equipment, Assistant Palmieri and Assistant Montagna, leaving the Questura [=police headquarters] to go to Via della Pergola where there had been a crime reported ‚around 1:40 PM – 1:45 PM‛ (cf. statements of Chief Insp. Claudio Cantagalli and Asst Chief Gioa Brocci, at the hearing of April 23, 2009, p. 86 to p. 126).

I guess the purpose of Gelati's above testimony is to prove to the court that Curatolo was possessed with extraordinary accuracy because he said he noticed the police in white suits headed to the crime scene the day the crime was discovered. I am glad the police looked both ways before they crossed the street, otherwise they might have been hit by a Holloween eve disco bus taking costumed revelers to the discos.[/QUOTE]

I do not understand why they would be wandering around in white suits. Surely they would be putting these on as they enter the crime scene, not wandering the streets dressed as extraterrestrials.

 

[Grinder]

Do you have a quote for this? I am interested in the 9:27 reference.

When asked in the Hellmann trial how he was so certain of the time he pointed to the watch on his wrist IIRC. But it could have been at an earlier time when quizzed by the defense.

I'll look. Is there a special reason the exact time is so important for you?

 

[Diocletus]

Do you have a quote for this? I am interested in the 9:27 reference.

Here it is (at least a google version of it):

Court:
So what time he saw her looking at his watch ?


AC:
On my own I looked they were nine and twenty-eight - nine twenty-seven .


Court:
At nine and twenty-eight he looked on his watch ?


AC:
Yes, they are those two minutes I say nine and a half .

 

[anglolawyer]

Quote:
To highlight the witness’ extraordinary accuracy there is, amongst other things, the fact that two members of the Perugia Scientific Police who on November 2, 2007 went on reconnaissance with equipment, Assistant Palmieri and Assistant Montagna, leaving the Questura [=police headquarters] to go to Via della Pergola where there had been a crime reported ‚around 1:40 PM – 1:45 PM‛ (cf. statements of Chief Insp. Claudio Cantagalli and Asst Chief Gioa Brocci, at the hearing of April 23, 2009, p. 86 to p. 126).

I guess the purpose of Gelati's above testimony is to prove to the court that Curatolo was possessed with extraordinary accuracy because he said he noticed the police in white suits headed to the crime scene the day the crime was discovered. I am glad the police looked both ways before they crossed the street, otherwise they might have been hit by a Holloween eve disco bus taking costumed revelers to the discos.[/QUOTE]
To be serious for a moment, Curatolo was extraordinarily accurate about the men in white suits but he was extraordinarily inaccurate about the disco buses, so the ISC is as guilty of cherry-picking the evidence as the most one-eyed guilter.

It's noteworthy here and elsewhere how easily they subvert the distinction between law and fact. That is because almost everything can be turned into a point of law, something which is not special to Italy. They are just more laughably blatant about it.

 

[Diocletus]

Here it is (at least a google version of it):

So, Naruto starts at 9:26.

They arrive at the Plaza at 9:27-:28. See the problem?

Even if we accept that they could have sprinted there, there are screensaver and other interactions afterwards, which would refute Curatalo's testimony.

Even if we reject the computer information, Curatalo pushes the murder back to 11:30.

11:30 requires explanation of the telephones . . .

 

[Planigale]

With regards to the knife and the knife print. Was there any sort of scientific evidence on this, or was this just the prosecutors opinion? I have seen a variety of presentations elsewhere, but the most convincing bit of the print to me is the shape of the handle, which appears to be completely different from the knife from RS flat.

Was the match done by the same people who matched the shoe print - but failed to count the rings?

 

[Grinder]

So, Naruto starts at 9:26.

They arrive at the Plaza at 9:27-:28. See the problem?

Even if we accept that they could have sprinted there, there are screensaver and other interactions afterwards, which would refute Curatalo's testimony.

Even if we reject the computer information, Curatalo pushes the murder back to 11:30.

11:30 requires explanation of the telephones . . .

But he saw the extraterrestrials the next morning

Please look at his testimony for the time being just before midnight. He was very precise and believable according to the PGP except the disco buses hence the revising of the times he saw the kids.

He pushes the time to midnight. You are probably looking at the testimony where he says it. I don't understand why more people here don't see that this half hour is significant. If they didn't murder before 9:27 or 28 then they were there until midnight. He saw them each time he looked up.

Of course it doesn't really matter because he didn't see them at all.

 

[Bill Williams]

With regards to the knife and the knife print. Was there any sort of scientific evidence on this, or was this just the prosecutors opinion? I have seen a variety of presentations elsewhere, but the most convincing bit of the print to me is the shape of the handle, which appears to be completely different from the knife from RS flat.

Was the match done by the same people who matched the shoe print - but failed to count the rings?

AFAIK, it is just the prosecutor's opinion. There was a poster on TJMK who provided some sort of over-lay-photographic evidence to support this "evidence", but AFAIK it did not make it to court.

Then again, the photos on TJMK themselves prove that the kitchen knife-blade was too long to have made the imprint on the sheet... there's a clear mark on the sheet where the blade ends on that (separate) knife and its handle begins. In short it seems to me that TJMK has actually proven the opposite of what they've claimed.

But still... please remember this claim has come out of thin air to begin with.

No one, not Mignini, not the PLE, not Massei, not Hellmann, not the ISC (even in quashing the acquittals) have even hinted at an equivalence between the kitchen knife and that bedsheet stain.

It is only when the DNA evidence collapses completely, and when judges start acquitting based on the DNA collapse, that there's a desperation to keep that knife in play.

Even with the DNA discredited, there remains the question of: is it true that a knife from Raffaele's made it to the cottage? In Mignini's mind it was carried with intent, in Massei's mind it was carried NOT as part of premeditation....

.... and of course in Hellmann's mind it did not make it there at all. Face it, that knife matches nothing at the cottage - not the bedsheet stain, none of the wounds, so why does Crini even bother suggesting it was there?

Well there's a simple answer to that. Without it, there's now no reason, none, nada, zilch, zero reason to think of either Amanda or Raffaele being there that night.

So Crini has to shoehorn it in somehow.

And you know what!? I think Nencini will fall for it.

 

[Bill Williams]

The verdict is on Thursday (or thereabouts).....

.... esp. if there's a conviction, get ready for trolls and internet jackals to descend here to gloat. Folk unwilling to discuss evidence rationally....

.... but boy, can they ever heave around ad hominem remarks! You'll see.

 

[acbytesla]

Fungible is a great word but I don't think Curatolo is fungible. The ISC said he wasn't fungible and it's just tough if Nencini doesn't like it.

Why is it tough if Nencini doesn't like it? Are there any ramifications to Nencini at all if he rules as he pleases? I'm unfamiliar with the structure of the judiciary in Italy. Can the ISC effect the careers of lower court judges?

If they can't, I'm not sure Nencini really has to pay much attention to the ISC at all.

 

[anglolawyer]

Why is it tough if Nencini doesn't like it? Are there any ramifications to Nencini at all if he rules as he pleases? I'm unfamiliar with the structure of the judiciary in Italy. Can the ISC effect the careers of lower court judges?

If they can't, I'm not sure Nencini really has to pay much attention to the ISC at all.

TBH neither am I. I would try harder to understand their system but I only have one life.

 

[Diocletus]

Why is it tough if Nencini doesn't like it? Are there any ramifications to Nencini at all if he rules as he pleases? I'm unfamiliar with the structure of the judiciary in Italy. Can the ISC effect the careers of lower court judges?

If they can't, I'm not sure Nencini really has to pay much attention to the ISC at all.

Frankly, I think he should use Curatalo as Knox and Sollecito's alibi. That would be fun: they falsely said that they were at home, when in fact, the prosecution proved that they were in the square when Kercher was murdered. Which would mean . . . I dunno . . . that the supreme court are idiots???

 

[acbytesla]

Frankly, I think he should use Curatalo as Knox and Sollecito's alibi. That would be fun: they falsely said that they were at home, when in fact, the prosecution proved that they were in the square when Kercher was murdered. Which would mean . . . I dunno . . . that the supreme court are idiots???

That's a given.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The verdict is on Thursday (or thereabouts).....

.... esp. if there's a conviction, get ready for trolls and internet jackals to descend here to gloat. Folk unwilling to discuss evidence rationally....

.... but boy, can they ever heave around ad hominem remarks! You'll see.

Regardless of the verdict on Thursday (or thereabouts) the devil will be in the motivation report +90 days if memory serves, until then.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Though I lean heavily towards incompetence over the choice for evil, the bra clasp is the one piece that looks like someone helped the DNA get there. I've wondered if they did pick it up the first time and then returned it later. It wouldn't have taken a conspiracy to get it done, just one member of the PLE that saw justice was slipping away, knew the shoes weren't looking good and made sure something would be found.

Exactly. It would be the same kind of loyal grunt who vandalized the car of an expert witness in Napoleoni's custody dispute. Possibly it was the exact same person. He wouldn't elaborate on what he had done. He would just tell the investigators to find the bra fastener and test it for DNA. "Very important!"

Hence the big production of looking for it and celebrating the find. They knew it was important, and they could guess the rest.

 

[platonov]

Wow - what a series of emotional & angry responses.

Has the green card story hit a nerve or is there something else going on.
Oh right - verdict due this week. Don't be so defeatist - killers have walked before.
And if they don't walk they will run so all is not lost.

Sigh.

I was funning around. There are worse things I could say about someone who professes to believe Raffaele is innocent and chooses to go to some cut-rate tabloid page with embarrassing news right before his future is to be decided.



Are you hoping for a confession/accusation from Raffaele, is that what you mean?

At any rate, nice to see you posting again, Platonov.

At least you didnt abuse me Kaosium.

As to abusing the prospective bride of Chucky, I'm sure you could.
Given the unrelenting stream of venom directed at the murder victim (and her family) in this case it would hardly be a much of a departure.

 

[Bill Williams]

The verdict is on Thursday (or thereabouts).....

.... esp. if there's a conviction, get ready for trolls and internet jackals to descend here to gloat. Folk unwilling to discuss evidence rationally....

.... but boy, can they ever heave around ad hominem remarks! You'll see.

Regardless of the verdict on Thursday (or thereabouts) the devil will be in the motivation report +90 days if memory serves, until then.

I agree.

There's a good chance Nencini will convict. It will not surprise you, CoulsdonUK, to read me add that it will be for no reason, really - meaning that the motivations report will be all.

Despite heavy effort by Guilters, lead by Harry Rag/The Machine to saturate media sites and journalists with their version of a PR Supertanker.... using the anonymous guilter-Wiki as their base....

Journalists in the USA are pretty unanimous - with some exceptions - as regarding the process in Italy as it relates to AK and RS as a bit of a joke. Piers Morgan on CNN is a notable exception - but he had Gloria Allred and Jeffrey Toobin on the day after the ISC reversals in March 2013 and Gloria and Jeffrey tried their best to put him straight, with no avail, really.

Even Morgan, though, self-avowed friend to John Kercher seemed offended with the "sex-game gone wrong" being pulled out of the hat again. It's clear Morgan cares not one whit about Sollecito or Knox, but he was offended that Meredith would have her own reputation sullied by the suggestion she'd be interested until it, "went wrong".

Jeffrey Toobin is my own bellweather on this, though. In Oct 2011 at the acquittals he explained the action of the Hellmann court by saying, "there really was no evidence to even suggest these two were involved, and they already have the real perp in jail," or words to that effect.

Toobin, last March, simply cut to the chase at what to him was the absurd suggestion that Italy would seek and get Knox's extradition. He said, "Look, she's safe inside the confines of the United States, and I'd suggest to her that she simply get on with her life as per normal."

The reason I say all this is because I actually do agree with you, CoulsdonUK, the real tale of Thursday's verdict will be the motivations report one way or another.

One based on a re-acquittal will simply be a more full version of Hellmann's motivations - perhaps with a few sections on the pooh-theory, and the sudden suggestion of the kitchen knife being a match for the bedsheet stain.... all being bollocks, even to the naked eye. Once again, the pooh-theory rests on the assumption that Meredith was such a prissy bitch that she'd complain about a mess in someone else's toilet! Meredith was nothing of the kind, by all measures.

However, one based on a conviction will be "interesting". For one thing, you can bet that no less than John Douglas, the original FBI profiler, would be writing a book about why the Italian judiciary went ga-ga all of a sudden. Jeffrey Toobin would be doing "analysis" on CNN telling the gentle viewers that he's at a loss to explain how Italy could come to such a daft conclusion to something that really is straight forward.

Like Massei had to do - Massei had to convict with 39 "probablies", and about three or four outright inventions. The most notable invention was Massei's completely unique theory of why Amanda was innocently carrying the kitchen knife! No one had even suggested that before Massei wrote it.

How many things will Nencini have to invent which weren't even mentioned at any of the trials? That's what I'll be watching for.

Will we be reading about stuff not one of Mignini, Massei, Hellmann, Cassazione, or Crini even proposed? That's the thing, isn't it, with the recent "invention" that the kitchen knife matches the bedsheet-stain. No one had ever had the cojones to suggest that before (not Mignini, not Massei) (!), and it certainly was NOT one of the reasons why Cassazione thought it wise to overturn Hellmann!

The sheer volume of attempts to prosecute this case through using different motives and scenarios, cast about like stock-tickets on Wall Street, is what is making me lose faith in the Italian system, at least as to how they are handling this.

If Nencini convicts, he's going to have to really become a fiction author - in my opinion. I'll be on the look out for how much is completely novel and new in his motivations. For some reason, it doesn't seem to bother Italian judges to simply make things up.