Sam Harris on "Islamophobia"

[angrysoba]

'Islamophobia' is a word created fraudulently (very recently) specially to blame ALL criticism of islam.

What counts as a "fraudulent" creation of a word?

According to something I just looked at on Wikipedia:

In 1996, the Runnymede Trust established the Commission on British Muslims and Islamophobia, chaired by Professor Gordon Conway, the vice-chancellor of the University of Sussex. Their report, Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, was launched in November 1997 by the Home Secretary, Jack Straw. In the Runnymede report, Islamophobia was defined by the trust as "an outlook or world-view involving an unfounded dread and dislike of Muslims, which results in practices of exclusion and discrimination."

One could at most accept that it means irrational fear of islam (not so widespread as some think anyways) but this sense is already well captured by existing words in the dictionary,

Such as?

But anyway, at least one person on here has said that his wife's attitude towards Islam is well-expressed by that formulation, which suggests that it does exist, but according to you is simply not very common.

I expect there are all kinds of incredibly rare diseases that exist which still get given names despite their rarity. Are these words "fraudulent" on the basis of the rarity of the phenomenon they describe?

there is no need to invent 'islamophobia' to account for that. So yes in this sense there is no 'islamophobia'.

No, you essentially said that it does exist and then said that it doesn't, because the word is "fraudulent". It seems you don't like the use of the word, which is fine. Many people used to complain about the way the word "gay" changed in meaning, but you would these days seem like a bit of a crank if you insisted that the word meant "happy" and nothing else.

 

[metacristi]

It is indeed an unsatisfactory and unnecessary word, coined for nefarious ideological reasons. But it came to replace other current expressions; and saying that the word is unsatisfactory, or that its sense was captured in other existing terms, is not to say that the phenomenon it designates is imaginary.

Given my personal experience* I really doubt that the term 'islamophobia' (as used especially after 2001, no matter when the first usage of the term occurred with whatever meaning assigned) is so innocent as you suggest. Actually there are very good reasons to think that it became a (very efficient as I see) tool used by the apologists of islam to silence all criticism of Islamic dogma; basically all forms of intellectual argument against islam suggesting that there are important problems are automatically labelled irrational requiring censorship and punishment of the author. Honestly I had ceased to write about islam long ago, there are better things to do, had not been this dangerously totalitarian attitude from the part of the western apologists of islam (who, curiously, claim that Reason is their guide). I fully agree here with the ex-muslims humanists authors of the 'Together Facing the New Totaliarism' manifesto:

We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of ‘Islamophobia,’ a wretched concept that confuses criticism of Islam as a religion and stigmatization of those who believe in it.

*labelled numerous times as 'islamophob' by western apologists of islam even if I offered enough justification for my view that the basic doctrines of islam have important problems, much more than in the case of other religions. The interesting fact is that I also believed that islam is not to be blamed for the Islamic radicals until I began to study seriously the basics of this religion. Being myself from a country, preponderantly Christian, where USA is hated by enough many people but where no one thought to use the violence we see coming from the muslim world could only confirm that there are indeed huge problems with the basics of islam and that they are at least indirectly responsible for the never ending Islamic suicide bombers.

 

[DC]

Given my personal experience* I really doubt that the term 'islamophobia' (as used especially after 2001, no matter when the first usage of the term occurred with whatever meaning assigned) is so innocent as you suggest. Actually there are very good reasons to think that it became a (very efficient as I see) tool used by the apologists of islam to silence all criticism of Islamic dogma; basically all forms of intellectual argument against islam suggesting that there are important problems are automatically labelled irrational requiring censorship and punishment of the author. Honestly I had ceased to write about islam long ago, there are better things to do, had not been this dangerously totalitarian attitude from the part of the western apologists of islam (who, curiously, claim that Reason is their guide). I fully agree here with the ex-muslims humanists authors of the 'Together Facing the New Totaliarism' manifesto:




*labelled numerous times as 'islamophob' by western apologists of islam even if I offered enough justification for my view that the basic doctrines of islam have important problems, much more than in the case of other religions. The interesting fact is that I also believed that islam is not to be blamed for the Islamic radicals until I began to study seriously the basics of this religion. Being myself from a country, preponderantly Christian, where USA is hated by enough many people but where no one thought to use the violence we see coming from the muslim world could only confirm that there are indeed huge problems with the basics of islam and that they are at least indirectly responsible for the never ending Islamic suicide bombers.

i have no Problem with critique of Islam, as an Atheist, i do that myself very often, but i also use the term Islamophobe very often, to Label People that do indeed Show a irrational fear of Islam. those nutters that run around with faked koran quotes, or make false Claims of what Moslems actually believe or what their Religion teaches them etc. Most of those People believe Islam to be something that even the Taliban would Label as too Extremist.
People like Pamela Geller for example.

I offered enough justification for my view that the basic doctrines of islam have important problems,

lets hear. what doctrines do you have in mind?

 

[DC]

Suicide Bombers are an interesting Topic in regard to Islam, just a few days ago i had a debate with a muslim friend, that claimed that Islamic Suicide Bombers are not Moslems. because their deeeds contradict what Islam teaches, so atleast the way he interprets his Religion. and i tend to agree with him. that it contradicts the teachings of Islam. like when the Koran states that killing one innocent Person is like killing the whole humanity. but i disagreed with him those Bombers not being Moslems. as they actually use Islam to justify their deeds, well their Interpretation of it atleast.

 

[metacristi]

What counts as a "fraudulent" creation of a word?

The hidden assumption (of the leftists who coined the term in the 1990s) is already that islam cannot be singled out among other Abrahamic religions (for example saying that there is indeed a core defective Islamic worldview, characteristic to many muslims, is not permissible, see the prescriptions of the Runnymede Trust). The label is fully deserved as the meaning associated is indeed fraudulent.

Such as?[

Such as the terms suggested by Sam Harris.

No, you essentially said that it does exist and then said that it doesn't, because the word is "fraudulent". It seems you don't like the use of the word, which is fine. Many people used to complain about the way the word "gay" changed in meaning, but you would these days seem like a bit of a crank if you insisted that the word meant "happy" and nothing else.

My view is that there is indeed irrational fear of islam (captured better by other words) but 'islamophobia' as understood by its creators in the 1992 and used today for all practical purposes is a fraudulent invention. Irrational fear of islam properly understood is not the islamophobia of the western apologists of islam. The term was coined to serve erroneous ideological purposes and even fixing them does not make it less superfluous.

 

[tsig]

Given my personal experience* I really doubt that the term 'islamophobia' (as used especially after 2001, no matter when the first usage of the term occurred with whatever meaning assigned) is so innocent as you suggest. Actually there are very good reasons to think that it became a (very efficient as I see) tool used by the apologists of islam to silence all criticism of Islamic dogma; basically all forms of intellectual argument against islam suggesting that there are important problems are automatically labelled irrational requiring censorship and punishment of the author. Honestly I had ceased to write about islam long ago, there are better things to do, had not been this dangerously totalitarian attitude from the part of the western apologists of islam (who, curiously, claim that Reason is their guide). I fully agree here with the ex-muslims humanists authors of the 'Together Facing the New Totaliarism' manifesto:




*labelled numerous times as 'islamophob' by western apologists of islam even if I offered enough justification for my view that the basic doctrines of islam have important problems, much more than in the case of other religions. The interesting fact is that I also believed that islam is not to be blamed for the Islamic radicals until I began to study seriously the basics of this religion. Being myself from a country, preponderantly Christian, where USA is hated by enough many people but where no one thought to use the violence we see coming from the muslim world could only confirm that there are indeed huge problems with the basics of islam and that they are at least indirectly responsible for the never ending Islamic suicide bombers.

You don't understand, islamophobes are responsible for the suicide bombers. When they criticize Islam unjustly* the poor Muslims cannot control their rage and are forced to respond with riots and suicide bombers.


*any criticism is unjust.

 

[tsig]

i have no Problem with critique of Islam, as an Atheist, i do that myself very often, but i also use the term Islamophobe very often, to Label People that do indeed Show a irrational fear of Islam. those nutters that run around with faked koran quotes, or make false Claims of what Moslems actually believe or what their Religion teaches them etc. Most of those People believe Islam to be something that even the Taliban would Label as too Extremist.
People like Pamela Geller for example.



lets hear. what doctrines do you have in mind?

She doesn't post here.

 

[tsig]

Suicide Bombers are an interesting Topic in regard to Islam, just a few days ago i had a debate with a muslim friend, that claimed that Islamic Suicide Bombers are not Moslems. because their deeeds contradict what Islam teaches, so atleast the way he interprets his Religion. and i tend to agree with him. that it contradicts the teachings of Islam. like when the Koran states that killing one innocent Person is like killing the whole humanity. but i disagreed with him those Bombers not being Moslems. as they actually use Islam to justify their deeds, well their Interpretation of it atleast.

When Muhammed was weak he preached tolerance once he gained power he practiced murder.

 

[angrysoba]

The hidden assumption (of the leftists who coined the term in the 1990s) is already that islam cannot be singled out among other Abrahamic religions (for example saying that there is indeed a core defective Islamic worldview, characteristic to many muslims, is not permissible, see the prescriptions of the Runnymede Trust). The label is fully deserved as the meaning associated is indeed fraudulent.

Such as the terms suggested by Sam Harris.

My view is that there is indeed irrational fear of islam (captured better by other words) but 'islamophobia' as understood by its creators in the 1992 and used today for all practical purposes is a fraudulent invention. Irrational fear of islam properly understood is not the islamophobia of the western apologists of islam. The term was coined to serve erroneous ideological purposes and even fixing them does not make it less superfluous.

I don't think there is such a thing as "fraudulently" making up a word. All words are made up.

Also, you agree that Islamophobia could serve for a particular phenomenon which at least one person has said exists in a person he knows. So I don't see the problem.

On the other hand you are focusing on another problem, which is that the term might be used to silence critics. Well, then, you would just need to point out that your criticisms are legitimate no matter what words others use.

 

[DC]

She doesn't post here.

so? neither does Sam Harries.

 

[metacristi]

You don't understand, islamophobes are responsible for the suicide bombers. When they criticize Islam unjustly* the poor Muslims cannot control their rage and are forced to respond with riots and suicide bombers.


*any criticism is unjust.

Frankly I do not understand how even some mere intellectual arguments can provoke such uncontrolled rage among muslims (should not intellectual argument be the only way to fight back?). We deal with a deep mystery here

 

[DC]

When Muhammed was weak he preached tolerance once he gained power he practiced murder.

and your point is?

 

[DC]

Frankly I do not understand how even some mere intellectual arguments can provoke such uncontrolled rage among muslims (should not intellectual argument be the only way to fight back?). We deal with a deep mystery here

you deal with the reaction of a very tiny minority among a group of more than 1 billion members.

 

[tsig]

so? neither does Sam Harries.

True, that's why I don't understand why so many want to argue against them rather than address what other posters say.

 

[tsig]

you deal with the reaction of a very tiny minority among a group of more than 1 billion members.

So we should give them a free pass?

 

[DC]

True, that's why I don't understand why so many want to argue against them rather than address what other posters say.

well I actually want to argue with people posting here, that's why I asked for specifics from metacristi

 

[DC]

So we should give them a free pass?

no way. we should prevent blaming the whole religion or its members for the deeds of a few.

like we didn't blame Christianity for what Breivik did, or what Roeder did.
heck we don't even blaim Christianity or Christians for what Christian priests do with kids. heck we don't even blame the Catholics.

 

[tsig]

no way. we should prevent blaming the whole religion or its members for the deeds of a few.

like we didn't blame Christianity for what Breivik did, or what Roeder did.
heck we don't even blaim Christianity or Christians for what Christian priests do with kids. heck we don't even blame the Catholics.

Since they do it in the name of religion it seems logical to blame that religion.

If a club you belonged to had members who killed people would you stay a member?

Ignoring your attempt to derail by pointing at Christianity.

 

[metacristi]

I don't think there is such a thing as "fraudulently" making up a word. All words are made up.

Also, you agree that Islamophobia could serve for a particular phenomenon which at least one person has said exists in a person he knows. So I don't see the problem.

On the other hand you are focusing on another problem, which is that the term might be used to silence critics. Well, then, you would just need to point out that your criticisms are legitimate no matter what words others use.

As far as I know fraudulent = fraud·u·lent adjective \-lənt\

: done to trick someone for the purpose of getting something valuable
.

The trickery here is to make some fully legitimate direction of research appear irrational and propagate a certain defective political ideology among masses as the truth. I do not argue against legitimate uses of islamophobia (real irrational fear of islam) but I cannot stop to observe that there is absolutely no reason for such a new word. Probably Sam Harris has in mind the western apologists of islam acceptation of the term islamophobia too but better ask him for that. As for the legitimacy of my views I think there is plenty of reasons to think that islam SHOULD be singled out among other Abrahamic religions, there is no mystery of why the current Islamic behaviour is that which we observe today.

 

[A'isha]

Ignoring your attempt to derail by pointing at Christianity.

As for the legitimacy of my views I think there is plenty of reasons to think that islam SHOULD be singled out among other Abrahamic religions

How, I wonder, does one contest the assertion that Islam is worse than the other Abrahamic religions when one is not allowed to even mention those other Abrahamic religions?