Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Dejudge, if I could, I'd start infracting you every time you use the phrase "X said Jesus was the Son of God born of a ghost." For the last time, no one here believes that Jesus was the Son of God or born of a ghost. Your continual reliance on that "argument" just underlines the weakness of your position.

I am dealing specifically with the evidence from antiquity. What you believe is your own problem.

I am arguing that Jesus was a figure of mythology and is actively presenting what is found written in sources of antiquity.

If you are arguing that Jesus was a figure of history then simply present the supporting evidence from antiquity.

The NT does not support an historical Jesus but a Jesus of Faith and that is precisely why a Quest for an HJ was initiated.

To this day, after hundreds of years, and hundreds of HJ have been proposed, no HJ has been found but people only say that they don't believe the stories in the NT that Jesus was born of a Ghost.

Examine the history of the search for an HJ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_historical_Jesus

By late 19th century, hundreds of Lives of Jesus were written. Some of these were purely sensational: They were not produced because any new data had appeared, but because some people read and interpreted the gospels in new ways.[1][2] These stories of the Lives of Jesus were often romanticized, highly psychological or included new elements which did not appear in any of the gospels or other historical documents.

Nothing has really changed. No new data has been found. This is evident when one reads Bart Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" HJers are merely telling us what they don't believe but have no supporting evidence.
 
dejudge said:
Your Jesus is not a product of history, but of Paul's hallucination.

Your HJ is "Hallucination Jesus".

Speak for yourself. Paul tells us more or less nothing about the Historical Jesus.

Do you think that the Pauline Epistles will magically disappear? Paul admitted he cannot recall how he met Jesus--only Gods knows but God does not exist.

He was hallucinating or dreaming or had an out of body experience--may be had too much old wine.

Read how Paul boasts about his vision and revelations.

2 Corinthians 12
1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable ; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago -whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows -such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know how such a man -whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows - 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

5 On behalf of such a man I will boast ...

Paul's Historical Jesus was Hallucination Jesus.

The Pauline Jesus is in "Cloud Nine" [the 3rd Heaven?]
 
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What?? Cherry-picking is not an accepted historical method. Cherry-picking has never ever worked well and is never used by historians.
The fact that you cherry picked a quote from the Wikipedia entry on Tacitus' reference to Christians, ignoring the parts that clearly showed that your argument was wrong, only confirms the fact that what you are doing is not even remotely like the historical method.

You have already heard the Robert Eisenman state that no-one has been able to solve the question of an HJ.

Your statement is a known fallacy.

The SEARCH for HJ is still on-going and has been on-going for hundreds of years.

It is completely mis-leading to give people the impression that an HJ has been found when no such thing has ever happened.
No one has claimed that an historical Jesus has been found, dejudge. This has been explained to you so often, and in such rudimentary terms that it is hard not to come to the conclusion that you are simply cognitively unable to grasp such a simple concept.

Please, check the history of the SEARCH for HJ.
Many of us have. Many of us also know that most scholars think that an historical Jesus most likely existed. So if all it takes to eliminate the possibility of an historical Jesus is to "check the history" and "do history", as you claim to be doing, then why do so many academics who have Ph.D. level credentials is doing just that disagree with your conclusion? Why should we conclude that a guy who can't even seem to grasp the difference between saying something might be true and claiming that it is true warrants greater consideration than the majority position of university professors studying this subject?

I know you won't actually directly address the above two questions. You'll just post a number of disjointed individual sentences with declarations like, "That's a Known fallacy", and, "God creator Born of a Ghost". But you'll evade directly answering those questions.
 
You reject virtually all the Jesus story and admit the NT is unreliable yet cherry-pick parts of the NT to assemble your Jesus.
That's not cherry picking. That's the analysis part of historical analysis.

Your concept of the historical method is so simplistic that you think that it is just a matter of reading what has been written down for you by a few reliable witnesses. This is something that pretty much anyone can do, so it's no wonder that you imagine yourself to be engaging in the historical method. It's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

But any argument that contains the premise that all historical evidence must either be accepted as 100% reliable or 100% false is just ridiculous. This shows a profound ignorance of what it actually means to be "doing history". An enormous part of "doing history" actually involves sifting through available accounts and evaluating them claim by claim. This is because even people who are reporting on actual events will usually insert their biases or misconceptions into their accounts. Even the ancient historians whom you've cited to support your position are subjected to this sort of critical analysis. As a result, their claims are graded individually for their credibility. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "History is written by the winners". This is a reference to the fact that history isn't a straightforward matter. If you rejected every source as 100% false because it contains obvious falsehoods, then you'd hardly have any sources at all.
 
dejudge said:
Cherry-picking is not an accepted historical method. Cherry-picking has never ever worked well and is never used by historians.


The fact that you cherry picked a quote from the Wikipedia entry on Tacitus' reference to Christians, ignoring the parts that clearly showed that your argument was wrong, only confirms the fact that what you are doing is not even remotely like the historical method.

Your statement is illogical and contradictory. You also make references to specific passages in Tacitus Annals and Josephus Antiquities which you believe helps your HJ argument.


dejudge said:
You have already heard the Robert Eisenman state that no-one has been able to solve the question of an HJ.

Your statement is a known fallacy.

The SEARCH for HJ is still on-going and has been on-going for hundreds of years.

It is completely mis-leading to give people the impression that an HJ has been found when no such thing has ever happened.


Foster Zygote said:
No one has claimed that an historical Jesus has been found, dejudge. This has been explained to you so often, and in such rudimentary terms that it is hard not to come to the conclusion that you are simply cognitively unable to grasp such a simple concept.

It has been explained to you that I am dealing with the thread "Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus".

I have already explained to you that Bart Ehrman wrote that Jesus certainly did exist and that is what he will demonstrate in his book "Did Jesus Exist?"

Again, examine the introduction of "Did Jesus Exist?" page 4 line 5-6.

dejudge said:
Please, check the history of the SEARCH for HJ.


Foster Zygote said:
Many of us have. Many of us also know that most scholars think that an historical Jesus most likely existed. So if all it takes to eliminate the possibility of an historical Jesus is to "check the history" and "do history", as you claim to be doing, then why do so many academics who have Ph.D. level credentials is doing just that disagree with your conclusion? Why should we conclude that a guy who can't even seem to grasp the difference between saying something might be true and claiming that it is true warrants greater consideration than the majority position of university professors studying this subject?



You are asking me why people believe there was an HJ without a shred of evidence and use the Bible as a source of history for their HJ?

I am arguing that Jesus was a figure of mythology.

You are asking the wrong guy.


Foster Zygote said:
I know you won't actually directly address the above two questions. You'll just post a number of disjointed individual sentences with declarations like, "That's a Known fallacy", and, "God creator Born of a Ghost". But you'll evade directly answering those questions.


I know you will never present any evidence for your standard HJ. Your standard HJ is assumed to have been an obscurity NOT the Christ yet you cherry-pick passages from Tacitus Annals and Josephus Antiquities.

Tacitus Christus was well known in the story and Josephus' Christ was alive c 62 CE.

Your assumed dead obscurity is without a shred of evidence.

Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth character like the God of the Jews, Satan the Devil, the Angel Gabriel and the Holy Ghost.

The NT is a compilation of the Myth fables which people of antiquity believed.
 
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That's not cherry picking. That's the analysis part of historical analysis.

Your concept of the historical method is so simplistic that you think that it is just a matter of reading what has been written down for you by a few reliable witnesses. This is something that pretty much anyone can do, so it's no wonder that you imagine yourself to be engaging in the historical method. It's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.


But any argument that contains the premise that all historical evidence must either be accepted as 100% reliable or 100% false is just ridiculous. This shows a profound ignorance of what it actually means to be "doing history". An enormous part of "doing history" actually involves sifting through available accounts and evaluating them claim by claim. This is because even people who are reporting on actual events will usually insert their biases or misconceptions into their accounts. Even the ancient historians whom you've cited to support your position are subjected to this sort of critical analysis. As a result, their claims are graded individually for their credibility. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "History is written by the winners". This is a reference to the fact that history isn't a straightforward matter. If you rejected every source as 100% false because it contains obvious falsehoods, then you'd hardly have any sources at all.

Your post is filled with baseless rhetoric. You seem not to understand the difference between an assumption and evidence.

The assumption that there was an HJ is not evidence of anything which is precisely why multiple versions of HJ are being proposed.

The fact is that no corroborative historical evidence has ever been found for the multiple assumed HJ characters.

Your HJ is just an unevidenced assumption.
 
Your statement is illogical and contradictory. You also make references to specific passages in Tacitus Annals and Josephus Antiquities which you believe helps your HJ argument.
You mean those passages I pointed out that you ignored? The ones that show that early Christians were also known interchangeably as "Chrestians", that the Codex Sinaiticus in Greek reads Chrestianoi all three times, and that your argument that the original use of the alternate spelling in the earliest extant copy of Annals indicates that Tacitus was talking about some other unknown group was flat out wrong?

You got caught quote mining. Continuing to attempt to cover it up only makes you look more dishonest.


It has been explained to you that I am dealing with the thread "Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus".

I have already explained to you that Bart Ehrman wrote that Jesus certainly did exist and that is what he will demonstrate in his book "Did Jesus Exist?"

Again, examine the introduction of "Did Jesus Exist?" page 4 line 5-6.
So take it up with Ehrman. I'm sure he'd love to hear from an expert such as yourself. The fact remains that you've been unable to demonstrate any implausibility regarding the historical hypothesis favored by most academics.

You are asking me why people believe there was an HJ without a shred of evidence and use the Bible as a source of history for their HJ?
No, I am asking you why we should conclude that most experts are wrong and accept your ignorant opinion as fact. You keep insisting that there isn't a shred of evidence for an historical Jesus, but that's just a lie that you have to keep repeating in order to avoid admitting the failure of your arguments. You've been shown lots of evidence that supports the possibility of an historical Jesus, but you dismiss this by conflating evidence with proof. You're like a creationist who dismisses any evidence for abiogenesis by demanding only proof.

I am arguing that Jesus was a figure of mythology.
Yes, we know. And you're doing a rather poor job of it.

You are asking the wrong guy.
Yeah, that's pretty much my point. You aren't the guy to go to for any information regarding the origins of Christianity.

I know you will never present any evidence for your standard HJ.
This tactic of yours is just getting pathetic.

Your standard HJ is assumed to have been an obscurity NOT the Christ yet you cherry-pick passages from Tacitus Annals and Josephus Antiquities.
What is that sentence even supposed to mean?

Tacitus Christus was well known in the story and Josephus' Christ was alive c 62 CE.
No, James the brother of Jesus was alive until around 62 CE.

Your assumed dead obscurity is without a shred of evidence.
Just keep repeating that lie until it comes true.
 
pakeha


No, I just suspect that missile-style stoning may have occurred in both "lynching" and judiicially sanctioned killings. I look at Deuternomy 13: 9-10

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/13.htm

stone him with stones - nothing about defenestrate him, and then if need be, squish him with one big rock, no rocks, plural, anywhere in sight.

Your sources bother me, too. I believe they are Talmudic, and while Talmud may have some earlier content (like Wicca may actually have some earlier rituals), I think much of it was composed near the time of its written form - way late for our purposes. "Stoning" a la Talmud seems to be two modes of execution, which have little to do with each other, and for which stoning is a doubly odd translation: first, the only part that has to do with any stone is the fail safe method, which only happens if the first way fails. Second, there is a perfectly fine English word for the second method, pressing, which was a method for judicial execution in English law (one of the Salem, Massachusetts witches was killed that way).

So, I am not saying it didn't happen, it did (although the witch wasn't defenstrated first, I don't think), but I am unconvinced that the Talmud is an authority on the quality of translations of the New Testament, especially into languages which didn't exist when it was written.

No worries, eight bits.
Of course the Talmud is far too late for any meaningful NT translation.
So I'm left back at the starting point of my doubt about the manner of Jesus' death.
Why crucifixion rather than stoning or beheading?

ETA
Many thanks for going the extra mile of the stoning method!
 
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I'm now almost through Ehrman's book, and I must say, I'm leaning a tiny bit towards a historical Jesus now. The evidence is fragmented and poor (poorer by far, I think, than Ehrman claims), but on the whole it's slightly more convincing to me than the arguments for a mythical Jesus.

However, having read Price's "The Jesus Myth theory and its Problems", as well as Carrier's responses to Ehrman's book, I have to say that Ehrman did not do his homework when it comes to knowing what he's arguing against.
He misrepresented or misunderstood most arguments by Price he addressed to a certain degree, and bizarrely, chided him several times for not being certain of his own case.
Ehrman regularly argues against certain claims based on assumptions the mythicists do not share, and seems unaware that this would affect the outcome of the argument. It may be that his assumptions make much more sense, but we never find out, because he never addresses these.

In short: The edifice of evidence for a historical Jesus is well presented, and certainly makes it clear why many scholars believe as they do. However, his discussion of the counterarguments is so poorly researched and lazy that his refutations are of no value. One has to read the mythicist arguments oneself to judge their merit or lack thereof.

On that final note it should be noted that not all mythicist arguments are equal. Remsburg for example argued that while there was just enough for him to believe there was Jesus he also felt there was nothing to show that any of the Gospel account had a basis in history.
 
You mean those passages I pointed out that you ignored? The ones that show that early Christians were also known interchangeably as "Chrestians", that the Codex Sinaiticus in Greek reads Chrestianoi all three times, and that your argument that the original use of the alternate spelling in the earliest extant copy of Annals indicates that Tacitus was talking about some other unknown group was flat out wrong?

Your HJ was not called the Christ [Anointed]. Your HJ was not a King of the Jews or an High Priest.

You assume that your HJ was an obscure preacher who got crucified because he created havoc at the Temple.

Your HJ has not been found.

Tacitus Christus was supposedly well known with followers in and outside Judea.

You have NO evidence whatsoever that your obscurity was a Christian or a Jew.

All you have are assumptions and imaginative speculation.

You do not know the difference between the assumption of an HJ and evidence for an HJ.

The quest for evidence outside the NT and Apologetics for your assumed dead obscurity has produced nothing.

Jesus called the Christ in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 was still alive c 62 CE.

Your assumed dead obscurity was crucified under Pilate.
 
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maximara

I don't know. What does that have to do with what I wrote? I didn't object that people could pretend to be Jesus (I have no doubt we could find one or two today, if we looked webside). I objected to your "(i)nspired by Paul's teaching..." A Jesus pretender purports to refute Paul's teaching (not necessarily intentionally, but very effectively).

Remember I am talking about what Paul preached shortly after his conversion while what we have is some 20 or perhaps 30 years later. We simply don't know what Paul what was teaching before the mid 50s to 60s CE


So, apparently your pretenders disagree with the thousands-strong army part, and of course talk about what will happen tomorrow, which is irrebuttable today. In Paul, Jesus being accessible on Earth is the indicator event that the promise is right then fulfilled, at Jesus' advent, not that the promise will remain unfulfilled for a while longer.

Which is at odds with the Gospels and Acts. Jesus has returned in Matthew 28, Luke 24, John 20–21, Mark 16, and Acts.

The full range of the Gospels given by most scholars are

Matthew: 37 to 100 CE

Mark: 40 to 73 CE

Luke: 50 to 100 CE

John: 65 to 100 CE

These early dates cause problems when you consider Paul's Contradictions of Jesus. If the Gospels were as early as some conservatives like to claim then Paul either didn't know them or ignored what was in them.

John Frum cults maybe. Paul's cult is entirely logical. if you accept his premises, then his conclusions follow necessarily. That's all logic ever accomplishes. The hitch in Paul's cult is accepting the premises, not in checking his sums.

Snicker, giggle, BAHAHAHA. This reminds me of a point regarding logic in a Doctor Who story:

DOCTOR: All elephants are pink. Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink. Logical?
DAVROS: Perfectly.
DOCTOR: You know what a human would say to that?
DAVROS: What?
TYSSAN: Elephants aren't pink.

Logic based on a bad premise isn't good logic.

Besides Paul contradicts himself:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:13)

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)

--

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2)

For each one should carry his own load. (Galatians 6:5)

----

“For he (God) will repay according to each one’s deeds; to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Romans 2:6)

“if you confess with your lips the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)

----

If you count the other stuff outside Paul's seven that are attributed to him things get even more ridiculous.

“But there is no call for an intermediary in case of one, and God is one” (Galatians 3:20)

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5)

----

Logic requires constancy and clearly Paul was waffling more then a politician running for office.
 
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Remember I am talking about what Paul preached shortly after his conversion while what we have is some 20 or perhaps 30 years later. We simply don't know what Paul what was teaching before the mid 50s to 60s CE

We simply have no corroborative evidence for Paul teaching anything in the 1st century.

We simply do not know that Paul was preaching in the 50s to 60s CE.

We cannot continue to use the Pauline writings as evidence of itself when it has been discovered that there were multiple unknown authors using the name of Paul.

The conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts is fiction and cannot be used as an historical timeline for the Pauline writings.

One must not ever forget what is written in Acts about the resurrection, ascension, and the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

Acts of the Apostles is not history and is evidence that stories of Jesus, the disciples and Paul cannot be accepted as history without external corroboration.

Secondarily, the dates of the Gospels and other NT writings are based on assumptions not evidence and are without any reasonable margin of error.

How is it possible to date any writing in the NT Canon, especially the Pauline Corpus, between 50-60 CE without any acknowledgment or corroboration in sources dated in the 1st century?

How were these dates arrived at?

It would appear to me that assumptions have become facts.

The claim by Apologetics that Paul wrote letters to seven Churches and Pastorals has been deduced to be false.

Even in Acts, up to c 62 CE, Paul wrote no letters to seven Churches and the Pastorals.
 
We simply have no corroborative evidence for Paul teaching anything in the 1st century.

We simply do not know that Paul was preaching in the 50s to 60s CE.

We cannot continue to use the Pauline writings as evidence of itself when it has been discovered that there were multiple unknown authors using the name of Paul.

The conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts is fiction and cannot be used as an historical timeline for the Pauline writings.

One must not ever forget what is written in Acts about the resurrection, ascension, and the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

Acts of the Apostles is not history and is evidence that stories of Jesus, the disciples and Paul cannot be accepted as history without external corroboration.

Secondarily, the dates of the Gospels and other NT writings are based on assumptions not evidence and are without any reasonable margin of error.

How is it possible to date any writing in the NT Canon, especially the Pauline Corpus, between 50-60 CE without any acknowledgment or corroboration in sources dated in the 1st century?

How were these dates arrived at?

It would appear to me that assumptions have become facts.

The claim by Apologetics that Paul wrote letters to seven Churches and Pastorals has been deduced to be false.

Even in Acts, up to c 62 CE, Paul wrote no letters to seven Churches and the Pastorals.

I can't believe you are still making this stupid argument as if it will convince people.

It won't.
 
dejudge said:
We simply have no corroborative evidence for Paul teaching anything in the 1st century.

We simply do not know that Paul was preaching in the 50s to 60s CE.

We cannot continue to use the Pauline writings as evidence of itself when it has been discovered that there were multiple unknown authors using the name of Paul.

The conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts is fiction and cannot be used as an historical timeline for the Pauline writings.

One must not ever forget what is written in Acts about the resurrection, ascension, and the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

Acts of the Apostles is not history and is evidence that stories of Jesus, the disciples and Paul cannot be accepted as history without external corroboration.

Secondarily, the dates of the Gospels and other NT writings are based on assumptions not evidence and are without any reasonable margin of error.

How is it possible to date any writing in the NT Canon, especially the Pauline Corpus, between 50-60 CE without any acknowledgment or corroboration in sources dated in the 1st century?

How were these dates arrived at?

It would appear to me that assumptions have become facts.

The claim by Apologetics that Paul wrote letters to seven Churches and Pastorals has been deduced to be false.

Even in Acts, up to c 62 CE, Paul wrote no letters to seven Churches and the Pastorals.



I can't believe you are still making this stupid argument as if it will convince people.

It won't.

Please, review your own statements because they come across as highly illogical and baseless.

I can't believe that you are still making the same stupid statement.

You have already been told that it is virtually impossible for you to know what will convince everybody in the whole world.
 
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maximara

Remember I am talking about what Paul preached shortly after his conversion while what we have is some 20 or perhaps 30 years later. We simply don't know what Paul what was teaching before the mid 50s to 60s CE
We aren't completely in the dark, though. Paul writes retrospectively about his preaching career. We have a real break in 1 Coritnthians, since we can see him changing the story right then and there (people are going to die before Jesus shows, so only some of us escape death). There is no prize for reverse engineering what Paul's story was originally.

Which is at odds with the Gospels and Acts. Jesus has returned in Matthew 28, Luke 24, John 20–21, Mark 16, and Acts.
Yes, the story changed, even during Paul's career, never mind the further decades before the canon closed. The "return" for Paul, however, refers to after the "sightings." John 21 is set during the sighting phase, and the take-home message is that Jesus' return will be substantially delayed compared with what had been the last-ditch "apostolic generation" forecast.

But Jesus is still coming - even in Islam. What remains constant is that when you and I and everybody else eventually see Jesus, all at the same time, not just private visits, it will be big.

Logic based on a bad premise isn't good logic.
No, Paul's logic is fine. Logic tells you some of what else is true if your premises are true, assuming the premises themselves aren't contradictory. That's it. Logic doesn't help choose the premsies, except sometimes, if they are contradictory, then you can detect that. But not always.

In your little story, what the human would actually say is "Who gives a damn what the world would be like if elephants were pink? They aren't." OK. But if you happen to want to know anyway, then logic will oblige. "Who gives a damn what the world would be like if dead people didn't stay dead? They do." Well, what do you know... lots of folks find that premise interesting and want to know more. Fantasy + logic = Ka-ching.

Logic requires constancy and clearly Paul was waffling more then a politician running for office.
Not really. Paul changes his premises over time. Everybody does. It's called learning. We have no examples of Paul writing simultaneously to different audiences, so there is no way to tell, from what reaches us, that there was anything that would fairly be called "waffling."

If the reader accepts only the current story, and is unwilling to apply sceptical heuristics to the whole succession of stories (something like Feynman's principle - if the more carefully you look, the less that is supposedly there, then consider that there is nothing there at all), then that's on the reader, not on Paul. Of course, we, the living, are long past Paul, and some of the current Christianities contradict themselves (never mind each other, and never mind Paul).
 
I don't really go with that. The Stephen event might have been grafted on but why should the grafter not describe a real stoning, to make the fabrication more plausible? This is supposed to have happened in the Sanhedrin, at a hearing presided over by the High Priest; it isn't represented as being unpremeditated mob violence.

Doesn't this contradict the idea the Sanhedrin couldn't have someone killed, which is why the Romans are dragged into the gospel stories??
What am I missing here?
 
Doesn't this contradict the idea the Sanhedrin couldn't have someone killed, which is why the Romans are dragged into the gospel stories??
What am I missing here?
Without consulting sources: I think it is agreed that the Sanhedrin could have people killed, so the story is wrong. I think the Romans killed Jesus on their own account, on a charge of rebellion or usurpation. In Acts 17 we can see that this was the opinion regarding the Jesus group held by the Jews of Thessalonika, and no doubt other places.
5 ... They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: “These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here, 7 and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.”
Paul had a different view of Jesus, but the Jews of that city wouldn't be aware of that.
 
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