WV man standing his ground, except it wasn't his

KatieG

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http://gawker.com/man-shoots-new-neighbors-he-thought-were-stealing-from-1509601587

A West Virginia man faces two counts of murder for killing a pair of men from a distance with a rifle after he wrongly assumed they were on his land. The victims, it turns out, were his new neighbors, checking out their property for the first time.

He's being charged with 1st degree murder. Lesson here: Know your property lines!
 
So in the US if you walk on some ones land by accident, although this was not the case here, the land owner can legally kill you even before you can explain it was mistake?
 
So in the US if you walk on some ones land by accident, although this was not the case here, the land owner can legally kill you even before you can explain it was mistake?
.
Hey!
We walked onto other's land and killed them!
That's how our nation was founded!
 
So in the US if you walk on some ones land by accident, although this was not the case here, the land owner can legally kill you even before you can explain it was mistake?
No. Although I have not bothered to look up West Virginia statute, I suspect that even had the pair been on the shooter's land he would be facing criminal charges.
 
No. Although I have not bothered to look up West Virginia statute, I suspect that even had the pair been on the shooter's land he would be facing criminal charges.
I hope this is the case - but I have lived in West Virginia. I also am aware of a number of Kentucky incidents.........
 
Responsible guns owners have been murdering a lot of people lately.
 
So in the US if you walk on some ones land by accident, although this was not the case here, the land owner can legally kill you even before you can explain it was mistake?

No. Many states allow a person to use force to defend property against theft. Some states have a rebuttable presumption that use of force is reasonable against a person who has no legitimate purpose on another person's property - the so-called Castle Doctrine. No jurisdiction (well, other than those governing state actors) allows simple trespassing as a justification for deadly force. Of course, like every other crime this is judged from the perspective of the person using force, so individual mileage will vary.
 
Oh yeah, he's not going to skate on this one. Even if it was his land, it's not exactly self-defense if you shoot someone from a distance with a rifle, unless they're a sniper/spotter team and they're gunning for you.
 
I think first-degree murder is probably a reach, but two counts of manslaughter at the very least. This guy's facing a long stretch (decades) in the pen.

From the looks of him I don't think he has decades left anywhere.
 
No. Although I have not bothered to look up West Virginia statute, I suspect that even had the pair been on the shooter's land he would be facing criminal charges.

Unless the law has changed since I quit practicing, his actions would have to be in some sort of self defense. I don't remember if there is a duty to retreat in WV as that never came up, but he'd have to believe he was in serious physical danger to justify shooting someone. I'm pretty sure no US jurisdiction has a law making it legal to snipe someone just for being on your land.

When someone enters a dwelling, some states are pretty liberal as to the home occupant using deadly force, but that isn't the case here.
 
I think first-degree murder is probably a reach, but two counts of manslaughter at the very least.

He aimed his gun at people, with the intent to shoot. How is that manslaughter? How is that not murder?
 
He aimed his gun at people, with the intent to shoot. How is that manslaughter? How is that not murder?
Hell, he can't even claim he didn't mean to pull the trigger--he shot two people; he's already admitted that he pulled the bolt action back and fired at the second guy. The second guy didn't even have a chance to duck after his brother went down.
 
I think first-degree murder is probably a reach, but two counts of manslaughter at the very least. This guy's facing a long stretch (decades) in the pen.

From the "I have nothing else to do so I'm going to post too much about this file."

At one time I probably knew more about West Virginia's homicide jurisprudence than anyone else. It is a horrible subject in that the code doesn't define anything. It just sets forth penalties and classifications for different types of homicide. Everything else is in case law, and WV's appellate court has not exactly been dedicated to any sort of logical consistency.

This seems textbook first degree murder as read. If his personal justification is only "they were on my land," then he's just ignorant about the law, which isn't a defense/mitigation to murder. Premeditation, intent, malice, gang's all here. I'll admit I've never come across a cold blooded killing where the killer honestly thought it was legal, so an argument that this is somehow not malicious would be a new one, but I don't think it legally flies. Malice is a weird animal in that under the common law (which WV uses) it is mostly defined in terms of absence, as I get to in a few paragraphs. One can read all sorts of old definitions of malice and not really get a clear picture of what it means. It basically means, in this context, that you meant to kill someone without a good reason. Although not quite that simple. Most sane states have rewritten criminal law to remove these sort of archaic and vague terms, but a few haven't. WV is one.

Which is the thing here, absent some other mental process we don't know about, believing it is legal to kill someone doesn't make the act any less loopy because it isn't like he would have a duty to kill someone. He's acting with malice, killing those no immediate threat to him, legal or not. That the statute doesn't bail him out is of no accord as to that.

Depending on additional facts, who knows. He might possibly have an insanity plea; if I were handling the case the first thing that happens is I have him evaluated in case he is actual legally psycho whacko rather than just way too much right wing gun propaganda whacko.

Second degree is right out, as there is clear premeditation here. I'll not bore with the details, but in essence the West Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals has defined Second Degree out of existence anyway. Not worth worrying about. Maybe I'll bore anyway. Second Degree is basically First Degree without premeditation. Problem is, in practice the time frame for "premeditating" as per court decisions can be more or less almost an instant so the concept is meaningless.

I could perhaps come up with a few silly arguments for manslaughter. For manslaughter you have to negate malice, which usually happens in two ways. One is imperfect self defense, where a person uses deadly force honestly believing it to be in self defense when same is not justified. The other is heat of passion. The classic example here is the husband come home, sees his wife in bed with another man, and starts shooting.

So if he decides to claim he was somehow scared for his life or that he was in a blind rage for some reason, maybe manslaughter, but this seems a massive stretch.

It will probably plead out to something anyway. My guess at this point would be plea to one first degree murder with a recommendation of mercy, meaning the prosecutor asks the judge to give the guy 15 to life rather than life with no parole. Maybe plea to two seconds which would be a 20-80 year sentence. Generally plea deals revolve around trying to engineer a sentence acceptable to both sides, so that this is clearly not a second degree murder wouldn't matter...

All of this is subject to further data, of course.
 
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