Does legal abortion make everyone happier?

[catsmate]

It might make a rape victim happier.

True. And based on surveys the predominant feeling after a legal termination is relief, except in those made up by anti-abortion campaigners of course.

I think the only unhappy people in this scenario are people soooooo mad that women get to choose for themselves.

This.

 

[angrysoba]

Gross and parochial over-generalisation

Indeed, it is still illegal in almost every circumstance to have an abortion in Ireland, is it not?

I think I heard a story recently on the Today programme, about a woman in Ireland who was carrying a baby with no brain, that could not possibly live outside of her womb who was obliged to carry the baby to term instead of having an abortion.

ETA: That story turns out to be true, although the location was not the Republic of Ireland, but Northern Ireland, where abortion is still illegal.

 

[I Ratant]

Dear All,

One of the premises of legalised abortion is that it reduces the number of unwanted children. Given that abortion is now legal, shouldn't that mean that the typical happiness level of children, perhaps everyone, is higher than it would be were abortion still illegal?

Cpl Ferro

.
There's the mother and the sperm donor in the equation also.
Many times, neither of them are "happier" after an abortion.

 

[CplFerro]

Dear catsmate1,

A "mainstay" of the pro-choice movement is the argument that it is better not to have been born than to be born unwanted. The spectre of "unwanted children" is a horror that the pro-choice movement has used to "push its agenda."

I'm wondering if any survey data backs this up.

Cpl Ferro

What a ridiculously stupid question.


Hmm, do I detect some agenda pushing here? Has your "unwanted children" argument ever been a mainstay of those campaigning for legal abortion? Or have the arguments been based on personal sovereignty, justice and health?


Gross and parochial over-generalisation

Have you compensated for other factors causing unhappiness?


And less than continuing pregnancies.

 

[wrs]

Dear All,

One of the premises of legalised abortion is that it reduces the number of unwanted children. Given that abortion is now legal, shouldn't that mean that the typical happiness level of children, perhaps everyone, is higher than it would be were abortion still illegal?

Cpl Ferro

All things remaining equal that might be true. However, all other things have not remained equal. So do you have some overall measure of happiness that you care to provide as a motivator for your question?

 

[CplFerro]

All things remaining equal that might be true. However, all other things have not remained equal. So do you have some overall measure of happiness that you care to provide as a motivator for your question?

Dear wrs,

Suicide rates?

Cpl Ferro

 

[Kid Eager]

Your question is invalid. As you stated "One of the premises is that..."

As framed, your questions seeks a conclusion arising from a single premise, where in actuality a set of conclusions of differing amount arises from multiple premises.

In addition, there is an unproven premise that unwanted children are unhappier.

Moreover, the assertion requires that abortion-attributable "happiness" can be measured, is measured, and a comparison of before and after is possible.

Finally, abortion has been legal for quite some time, so where, exactly, is your strawman residing?

Try mapping the 20 happiest countries against whether abortion is legal there, or not. Who knows, you may be able to glean a partial answer from your poorly framed question:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

Dear wrs,

Suicide rates?

Cpl Ferro

As already detailed, your question is invalid - see first response in this thread, quoted for your convenience.

Also, are you going to look at the link provided above?

 

[catsmate]

Indeed, it is still illegal in almost every circumstance to have an abortion in Ireland, is it not?

Not exactly. Public opinion supports rather more liberal terms, but they'd almost certainly fail a constitutional check and so require a referendum, for which the political will doesn't currently exist.

Dear catsmate1,

A "mainstay" of the pro-choice movement is the argument that it is better not to have been born than to be born unwanted.

Citations required for this claim.

The spectre of "unwanted children" is a horror that the pro-choice movement has used to "push its agenda."

Citations required for this claim.

I'm wondering if any survey data backs this up.

No you're not.

As already detailed, your question is invalid - see first response in this thread, quoted for your convenience.

Indeed. This entire "argument" is utterly predictable.

 

[CplFerro]

As already detailed, your question is invalid - see first response in this thread, quoted for your convenience.

Also, are you going to look at the link provided above?

Dear Kid,

Yes, thanks for the link.

Do you think suicide rates are good indicators of general happiness in their respective countries? Or do would-be- and successful suicides exist in a bubble separate from the rest of the population?

Cpl Ferro

 

[angrysoba]

Dear Kid,

Yes, thanks for the link.

Do you think suicide rates are good indicators of general happiness in their respective countries? Or do would-be- and successful suicides exist in a bubble separate from the rest of the population?

Cpl Ferro

Suicide rates may well be useful in indicating "general happiness in their respective countries" but they are completely useless in determining the contribution legal abortion has made to a population's happiness given that there are so many other factors involved in suicide rates, aside from abortion, as you would know if you gave the matter a few seconds' thought.

 

[Kid Eager]

Dear Kid,

Yes, thanks for the link.

Do you think suicide rates are good indicators of general happiness in their respective countries? Or do would-be- and successful suicides exist in a bubble separate from the rest of the population?

Cpl Ferro

You're the one that has raised the possibility of correlation of happiness to suicides - so what have you done about it?

Meanwhile, back to the topic in in your original post:

Your question is invalid. As you stated "One of the premises is that..."

As framed, your questions seeks a conclusion arising from a single premise, where in actuality a set of conclusions of differing amount arises from multiple premises.

In addition, there is an unproven premise that unwanted children are unhappier.

Moreover, the assertion requires that abortion-attributable "happiness" can be measured, is measured, and a comparison of before and after is possible.

Finally, abortion has been legal for quite some time, so where, exactly, is your strawman residing?

Try mapping the 20 happiest countries against whether abortion is legal there, or not. Who knows, you may be able to glean a partial answer from your poorly framed question:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

 

[Puppycow]

Moreover, the assertion requires that abortion-attributable "happiness" can be measured, is measured, and a comparison of before and after is possible.

I'm not sure if we can measure happiness to compare before and after the legalization of abortion, and in any case there are probably lots of other confounding factors that could explain the difference since lots of things are different between now and then.

One thing we can measure however, is rates of crime, and these appear to have gone down since abortion was legalized. There's a chapter about it in Freakonomics.

 

[Kid Eager]

Your question is invalid. As you stated "One of the premises is that..."

As framed, your questions seeks a conclusion arising from a single premise, where in actuality a set of conclusions of differing amount arises from multiple premises.

In addition, there is an unproven premise that unwanted children are unhappier.

Moreover, the assertion requires that abortion-attributable "happiness" can be measured, is measured, and a comparison of before and after is possible.

Finally, abortion has been legal for quite some time, so where, exactly, is your strawman residing?

I'm not sure if we can measure happiness to compare before and after the legalization of abortion, and in any case there are probably lots of other confounding factors that could explain the difference since lots of things are different between now and then.

One thing we can measure however, is rates of crime, and these appear to have gone down since abortion was legalized. There's a chapter about it in Freakonomics.

Yes, but I'm hoping that the OP actually gets to the point of learning something from this thread, rather than the continued asking of questions in order to avoid learning anything...

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'm not sure if we can measure happiness to compare before and after the legalization of abortion, and in any case there are probably lots of other confounding factors that could explain the difference since lots of things are different between now and then.

One thing we can measure however, is rates of crime, and these appear to have gone down since abortion was legalized. There's a chapter about it in Freakonomics.

You did not read what I posted in Post #15 of this thread did you?

You could do no better than to read the Wikipedia article /Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect^WPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect. I think the conclusion is that there is no correlation. But possibly this is another thread.

The conclusion in Freakonomics is problematic to say the least.

 

[blutoski]

Dear Kid,

Yes, thanks for the link.

Do you think suicide rates are good indicators of general happiness in their respective countries? Or do would-be- and successful suicides exist in a bubble separate from the rest of the population?

Cpl Ferro

I can answer that: suicide rates cannot be used to approximate national level of happiness. There are too many confounders introduced by different cultural attitudes toward suicide.

 

[Lithrael]

A "mainstay" of the pro-choice movement is the argument that it is better not to have been born than to be born unwanted.

I have not seen this myself. I have seen the argument that it is better to be born wanted than to be born unwanted, though. While I'm sure there are success stories where an unprepared young terrified mother has turned her life around for the sake of an unwanted baby, I see nothing wrong with a unprepared young terrified pregnant person being able to decide not to live that challenge.

I can't understand the idea of bringing up the imaginary person that any aborted pregnancy might have become. To me it is as strange a tactic as if you brought up imaginary unconceived persons to describe why it's wrong to choose not to get pregnant in the first place. Then again, it was Cain who said it here, so it's probably not meant as a genuine addition to the debate.

 

[fuelair]

I think the only unhappy people in this scenario are people soooooo mad that women get to choose for themselves.

IIRC they call themselves republickers or something like that - and are generally found hiding under toadstools (not the fungus, actual stools from toads with diarrhea.

 

[BStrong]

Dear All,

One of the premises of legalised abortion is that it reduces the number of unwanted children. Given that abortion is now legal, shouldn't that mean that the typical happiness level of children, perhaps everyone, is higher than it would be were abortion still illegal?

Cpl Ferro

No, and the purpose of legalized abortion is to allow the woman to make the choice to terminate the pregnancy legally and safely.

 

[Mark6]

Yes, but I'm hoping that the OP actually gets to the point of learning something from this thread, rather than the continued asking of questions in order to avoid learning anything...

You are much too optimistic

 

[wrs]

Dear wrs,

Suicide rates?

Cpl Ferro

I think that happiness is measured by more than a lack of despair. There may be an increase in despairing individuals without any decrease in overall happiness. There are many suicides attempted that fail and so it could well be that more people are choosing guns over some other less effective form of suicide and the success rate is higher. I can see any number of reasons why attempting to measure happiness by suicide rate won't convince many people of your point.