How can the world forgive Germany?

In all sincerity, Navigator, here are a few suggestions I hope you'll consider.

1. Go to your nearest neighborhood synagogue and have a chat with the Rabbi. I suspect he or she will be delighted to explain a little of their beliefs to you. Don't go in with a chip on your shoulder, don't talk about the Palestinians (we'll get to that), just present yourself in a spirit of learning. Ask him to explain the phrase "the chosen people." The answer will completely upend your understanding of Judaism, I guarantee it. Might even blow your mind.

2. Instead of whining about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and slandering every Jew on the planet, get off your butt and do something about it. Join the legions of appalled Jews -- both inside Israel and out -- trying to change that country's tactics and injustices. Take part in an Amnesty International letter writing campaign. Write to your congress people and reps if you're American. Again, don't write with a chip on your shoulder. Use AI's sample letters. You'll still be sitting on your butt, I guess, but at least it'll be a productive butt-sitting.

3. Read a history of the Jews that wasn't written by a driveling anti-semite. There's just too much to explain in a few posts on an internet forum.

4. Let go of the hate.
 
People keep bringing up the Native Americans. No one's especially bothered by the massacres, why hold a grudge against Germany?

Maybe I misunderstand the argument, but the problem I see is this: Native Americans are still suffering from their history. The rates of alcoholism and domestic abuse on reservations are through the roof, education levels are low, unemployment is high.

Native Americans aren't lazy, good-for-nothing lowlifes. They have a long history of disenfranchisement, and their present state is, in part, a product of that. If we as Americans don't feel responsible -- even though our generation didn't cause the problems -- what's going to motivate us to help?

Sometimes not forgiving ourselves is the best thing we can do for each other.
 
So you are making the suggestion that the Torah is taken from the Quran? That is where the Jews and subsequently Christians got their religion?

That still doesn't give any explanation as to why I Ratant left it off the list...
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Wadda***?
The Bible is the OT, and the NT. The OT is the Jewish version, and originator of that nonsense.
The Quran is a bastard child of both the Xtian version and the Hebrew version of that nonsense.
The formal version of the Hebrew bible didn't exist in any coherent form until just a few centuries before the Current Era.
 
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Springs from the concerns about a "National Redoubt" in the Austrian Alps, I believe.
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I believe that might be it.
We visited the "Eagle's Nest" while in Europe in the early '50s. Interesting how many leaders get awesome perks! :)
 
In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??

I would be remiss if I failed to point out that the world will "forgive" the German people if it learns history from books instead of from the good/evil dichotomy portrayed on television shows produced by one of the nominally victorious countries. The world isn't that simple.
 
Torah books predate the New Testament. The Pentateuch, as it is known to Christians, is the 5 Books of Moses, the written part of the Torah (there is also an oral history component of the Torah). Christians include the Old Testament in their collection because Yeshu ben Yusuf of Nazareth and his gaggle of knifemen, hookers and fishermen were all Jewish, and the Messiah is a Jewish myth/prophecy. The job description "Christ" only has validity within the perspective of Jewish prophecy so those historical/allegorical/metaphorical stories were included in the final collection determined by some group in Rome.

Both Old and New Testament predate and are included in the Qu'ran.

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The Bible is the OT, and the NT. The OT is the Jewish version, and originator of that nonsense.
The Quran is a bastard child of both the Xtian version and the Hebrew version of that nonsense.
The formal version of the Hebrew bible didn't exist in any coherent form until just a few centuries before the Current Era.

The OT is the Jewish version so I am correct when I stated that the Jews are responsible for the one god concept which now today permeates the world in its three major versions.

My understanding is that the Jews got this data from the tribes they interacted with and collated it together to manifest this one god idea then they attempted to inject that into their own culture and gave themselves the title of the chosen people of this god.

This seriously backfired for them, as history confirms, but it also worked its magic for them in other ways.
 
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Yes. Who? Everyone involved in making up the stories.
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The Bible, the Quran, Book of Mormon.... ALL fiction. From the first letter in the first word to the last letter in the last word.
Religions are intended to control the believer by promising an undeliverable "eternal award" for abject surrendering one's common sense to that carrot.
Now, now, there was a guy called Caeser in Rome and he was in charge so one thing was correct.
 
In all sincerity, Navigator, here are a few suggestions I hope you'll consider.

1. Go to your nearest neighborhood synagogue and have a chat with the Rabbi. I suspect he or she will be delighted to explain a little of their beliefs to you. Don't go in with a chip on your shoulder, don't talk about the Palestinians (we'll get to that), just present yourself in a spirit of learning. Ask him to explain the phrase "the chosen people." The answer will completely upend your understanding of Judaism, I guarantee it. Might even blow your mind.

Ryan.
Why not save me the trouble of seeking out Rabbi's. You obviously have mind-blowing data regarding Judaism so why not just share it. What is the meaning behind the phrase 'Gods chosen people'?

2. Instead of whining about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and slandering every Jew on the planet, get off your butt and do something about it. Join the legions of appalled Jews -- both inside Israel and out -- trying to change that country's tactics and injustices. Take part in an Amnesty International letter writing campaign. Write to your congress people and reps if you're American. Again, don't write with a chip on your shoulder. Use AI's sample letters. You'll still be sitting on your butt, I guess, but at least it'll be a productive butt-sitting.

I have slandered no one - Jew or otherwise. I am approaching this from an atheist perspective regarding theism.
It appears that organised religion of the 'one god' variety can be traced to Jews, and that the whole history which unfolded from that including the manufacture and distribution of the Protocols the rise of German Nazi is connected with that.

The history of the world as it has so far unfolded has everything to do with the Jew and their idea of god.

Within those events we are given the distinct impression that we are bad in the eyes of our creator.
You cage a dog and then continually poke a sharp stick at it, you are going to create a beast. A creature who resorts to base instinct and get your flesh anywhere near that beast and it will bite to kill.

You put a god idea in a cage and get it to perform tricks for you, you create a *********** monster.

That monster turned out to manifest as Nazi.

3. Read a history of the Jews that wasn't written by a driveling anti-semite. There's just too much to explain in a few posts on an internet forum.


Wow.
So I have been edumacated by a system which is run by driveling anti-semite edumacators!

And the Jewish history is far too complex to even begin to share points on a public forum!

Yet out there in cyberland is the truth!

Just google "truth""The TRUTH"!

The truth is the sharp pointy stick needs to be laid aside. The cage has to be opened and the dog must somehow be healed of its afflictions at the hand of its captors.
How is that possible without some kind of sky-daddy coming forth from the heavens to put right the wrong caused in its name by the captors of the dog??

Will the deep and meaningful history be revealed to me that I might understand an mine eyes truly open as to the reason for why history happened and why the Jews did what they did?

Will the answer turn out to be "money" "love" "Love of money"?

Or something more profound and reasonable?

4. Let go of the hate.

The force is strong in this one.

Oh no Ryan. While I can assure you that I 'hate' hypocrazy, even the accompanying feelings I know to be 'hate' are absent.

Oh I know what it is to feel hate. I detest that feeling.

But I do strongly oppose that which is evil and hides itself inside costumes of holiness, be they religious or political.

Now as to a particular history attached to the Tribes calling themselves Jews and as a nation, Israel, I was taught apparently by driveling anti-semites that After the downfall of the Nazis the Christian-like rescuers appropriated land and gave the poor sods somewhere to call home.

This tells me that before this the poor sods had no homeland. The stories they themselves have told the world confirm that they were a homeless people but they were also gods people consigned to bring the world to order in the sense of purpose and correct behavior.

I am aware that at one point in their history according to them (and they should know right?) they acquired a homeland by using the deadly force and doing so in the name of their god.

That is what the Nazi also did.

I don't know the details as to how they then lost that land to a thing obviously able to take it, but that thing in itself had more than a few shades of Nazi embedded into its practice.

Sure it called itself something else, but there it is always nearby if not sometimes most obviously controlling its own events in relation to how the world unfolds itself.

It is not hate which propels me, but love. Love for the truth, a very hard thing for anyone to pinpoint.

Something else which I am aware of is that all the human god ideas compiled into one god idea has not helped the world help itself.
But I have to concede that even that one god idea seemed to want human beings to succeed in getting along with each other in the spirit of love and mutual reason and purpose. So what exactly polluted that agenda and how did it manage to infiltrate its contrary agenda into the mix?

Should the Rabbis easily answer this for me?
 
Noted in passing on one of a dozen history forums, sorry.
Ah, turns out it was last May. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...auschwitz-guard-murder-germany_n_3223417.html

Its seems guilt is easier to recognize in the actions of those working on the coal face directly.
It is harder to spot those who had a hand in it from a distance and next to evil to condemn scientists who were too busy in their creative spaces concocting the necessary science to do the job needing done at the coal face to know exactly what that job being done was.

Rather than hold these accountable, they were requisitioned to positions within the merging superpowers to assist with making these actual superpowers.

Nice move in relation to Chess.

In relation to integrity, sucks big time.

Get out of jail free cards for all those with higher scores than the average. A stunning display of human intelligence still evolving and not quite there yet...
 
So you are making the suggestion that the Torah is taken from the Quran? That is where the Jews and subsequently Christians got their religion?

That still doesn't give any explanation as to why I Ratant left it off the list...

Be ye daft? What he clearly pointed out was the guys who wrote the quran simply coopted the entire bible and thus the Torah. The Jews wrote/lived under Torah - pre- Koran. The xtians got theirs from the whole OT/NT but with the understanding the NT was clearly over the OT (except for the unable to read and interpret real well fundies). The last got theirs by taking the first two and adding an extra (made up just like the other two....three depending on how you lay it all out) book updating the covenant. All crap, but hey if it keeps the people in check and sumissive................:D:D:D:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp
 
You have a history of not listening to informed opinions.

Look again. I have a history of questioning the validity of informed opinions. That is what skeptical critical free thinking atheists are good at doing.


Pulling apart the overlays to reveal what is hidden beneath.
 
Now, now, there was a guy called Caeser in Rome and he was in charge so one thing was correct.
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That's what I mentioned about the experienced bull-shippers.. they pepper their nonsense with just enough reality to make the nonsense seem real.
But if an alert person starts looking at Caesar and his role in the NT, one finds problems... no census for one.
 
Look again. I have a history of questioning the validity of informed opinions. That is what skeptical critical free thinking atheists are good at doing.

I can't make a meaningful response without going off-topic.

But carry-on. I want to see you talk your way out of your objections to the "50% of the human race has below average intelligence" truism.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9791959

Question the validity of that again as you did up-thread.
 
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Ryan.
Why not save me the trouble of seeking out Rabbi's. You obviously have mind-blowing data regarding Judaism so why not just share it. What is the meaning behind the phrase 'Gods chosen people'?
I could not explain it like a Rabbi could. Plus, you appear to have a monolithic image of Jews which is false. The only antidote is to converse with real, actual, believing Jews.

It appears that organised religion of the 'one god' variety can be traced to Jews, and that the whole history which unfolded from that including the manufacture and distribution of the Protocols the rise of German Nazi is connected with that.
I'm no expert, but I don't think any of that is true...

Monolatrism can be a stage in the development of monotheism from polytheism. Three examples of this are the Aten cult in the reign of the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, the rise of Marduk from the tutelary of Babylon to the claim of universal supremacy, and the rise of Yahweh from among the Israelite gods to the sole God of later Judaism.[11]

In Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda appears as a supreme and transcendental deity. Depending on the date of Zoroaster (usually placed in the early Iron Age), this may be one of the earliest documented instances of the emergence of monism in an Indo-European religion.
source

and...

...according to Bourke, archaeological evidence is revealing that this new emphasis on one god was not reserved for the Israelites, but occurred simultaneously in several nation states throughout the Middle East, with Yahweh in Israel, Hadad in Damascus, Milkom in Amman, Chemos in Moab (in present-day Jordan) and Qos in Edom (in present-day Israel).
source

The history of the world as it has so far unfolded has everything to do with the Jew and their idea of god.
Personally, I think the history of the world is spectacularly more complicated -- and involved a whole lot more people -- than that.

The stories they themselves have told the world confirm that they were a homeless people but they were also gods people consigned to bring the world to order in the sense of purpose and correct behavior.
I'm pretty sure this is not what most observant Jews believe.
 

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