How can the world forgive Germany?

[I Ratant]

Who's work of fiction?

Is the Jewish god also a work of fiction? If so, who's work of fiction.

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Yes. Who? Everyone involved in making up the stories.
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To those who have commented that I am being anti Semitic, you are way telling lies.

Those who say I don't understand Jewish history, I am fine with being shown where I err.

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The Bible, the Quran, Book of Mormon.... ALL fiction. From the first letter in the first word to the last letter in the last word.
Religions are intended to control the believer by promising an undeliverable "eternal award" for abject surrendering one's common sense to that carrot.

 

[Navigator]

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Yes. Who? Everyone involved in making up the stories.

So the Jews were involved in making up the stories. They amalgamated human god concepts into one idea of god and distributed this out into the world as if is were real

Saying so should not make me a racist. anti Semitic.

The Bible, the Quran, Book of Mormon.... ALL fiction. From the first letter in the first word to the last letter in the last word.

They are not Jewish books are they? Why did you chose to leave out the Jewish book from your list? Are you afraid of being labelled by those who would take offence?

Religions are intended to control the believer by promising an undeliverable "eternal award" for abject surrendering one's common sense to that carrot.

Control the believer in this life with the promise of a type of afterlife experience.

What are they controlling the believer to do?

 

[Navigator]

When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

In this case, it appears to have then followed you home, moved into your guest bedroom, had its own land line put in, and is now taking the dog for walks and helping out with the laundry.

Classic!

Throw in some mysticism just because...

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Originally Posted by I Ratant
The Bible, the Quran, Book of Mormon.... ALL fiction. From the first letter in the first word to the last letter in the last word.

They are not Jewish books are they? Why did you chose to leave out the Jewish book from your list? Are you afraid of being labelled by those who would take offence?

The Torah is a subset of the Old Testament of the Bible and both are a subset of the Qu'ran. Do you really not know this? All three religions are collectively called "the people of the book."

 

[a_unique_person]

In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??

They are people just like us. Rather than just write it off as something to do with Germans, be aware that this can happen anywhere given the right alignment of chance and history. I really doubt this would have happened without Hitler to bring it all together. After WWII, there was a lot of guilt and shame about what they had done.

If you want to look at more history, there are plenty of examples of similar events, just on a smaller scale because the technology and population was constrained.

 

[anglolawyer]

They are people just like us. Rather than just write it off as something to do with Germans, be aware that this can happen anywhere given the right alignment of chance and history. I really doubt this would have happened without Hitler to bring it all together. After WWII, there was a lot of guilt and shame about what they had done.

If you want to look at more history, there are plenty of examples of similar events, just on a smaller scale because the technology and population was constrained.

People can be cruel. If you drill down there are usually reasons. Even before things got out of hand there were warnings about the punitive clauses of the treaty of Versailles, then add the dislocation of war, the Great Depression, the development of fascism and of ideas of social Darwinism. I am not sure Hitler was absolutely essential. Cometh the hour etc.

But what is this 'world' that is supposed to be faced with the dilemma of forgiving a country? Is there some kind of world forum of opinion sitting in judgement on history? How does it work among all the teeming millions going about their lives mostly not bothering with such things? Maybe there are only a few opinion-forming ants that send bulletins to the antenna of the worker ants so they have their thoughts nicely packaged for them. Like sandwiches.

What is 'Germany' too? In the context of the question. I know 'it' as a nice, safe place to visit. Very decent and pleasant and populated mostly by folk who were not alive when the bad things happened. Is there a statute of limitations? When do 'we' no longer have to forgive the Romans for destroying Carthage or ourselves for bumping off all them injuns?

I increasingly dislike identifying with my country or forcing others to identify with theirs. I feel like a worker ant that wants to switch off its receiver.

 

[Navigator]

The Torah is a subset of the Old Testament of the Bible and both are a subset of the Qu'ran. Do you really not know this? All three religions are collectively called "the people of the book."

So you are making the suggestion that the Torah is taken from the Quran? That is where the Jews and subsequently Christians got their religion?

That still doesn't give any explanation as to why I Ratant left it off the list...

 

[Navigator]

People can be cruel. If you drill down there are usually reasons. Even before things got out of hand there were warnings about the punitive clauses of the treaty of Versailles, then add the dislocation of war, the Great Depression, the development of fascism and of ideas of social Darwinism. I am not sure Hitler was absolutely essential. Cometh the hour etc.

But what is this 'world' that is supposed to be faced with the dilemma of forgiving a country? Is there some kind of world forum of opinion sitting in judgement on history? How does it work among all the teeming millions going about their lives mostly not bothering with such things? Maybe there are only a few opinion-forming ants that send bulletins to the antenna of the worker ants so they have their thoughts nicely packaged for them. Like sandwiches.

What is 'Germany' too? In the context of the question. I know 'it' as a nice, safe place to visit. Very decent and pleasant and populated mostly by folk who were not alive when the bad things happened. Is there a statute of limitations? When do 'we' no longer have to forgive the Romans for destroying Carthage or ourselves for bumping off all them injuns?

I increasingly dislike identifying with my country or forcing others to identify with theirs. I feel like a worker ant that wants to switch off its receiver.

I feel the same about self identifying with race. What is the point in today's day and age? Theses things in themselves are triggers for potential racism. Too much the provincial thinking.

Why subdivide humans at all? That seems old world to me and counter productive.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

So you are making the suggestion that the Torah is taken from the Quran? That is where the Jews and subsequently Christians got their religion?

That still doesn't give any explanation as to why I Ratant left it off the list...

You have it backwards. I suggest using your googler. Or even visiting a library, if you dare.

But careful!

Uninformed Opinions can be damaged by prolonged exposure to Knowledge. If you value your Uninformed Opinions be sure to only expose them to Moronic Internet Blather.

 

[Navigator]

You have it backwards. I suggest using your googler. Or even visiting a library, if you dare.

Why don't you just give the data? Are you concerned you might have it wrong?

What do you suggest? "How can the world forgive Germany?"

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Why don't you just give the data? Are you concerned you might have it wrong?

Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? You're really that uninformed? Or are you just trying to score Internet Points by twisting someone's post to better your own ego?

Try wikipedia. I don't normally recommend it for readers over about 9 years old but in your case it may help.

Bah! I'll summarize.
Torah books predate the New Testament. The Pentateuch, as it is known to Christians, is the 5 Books of Moses, the written part of the Torah (there is also an oral history component of the Torah). Christians include the Old Testament in their collection because Yeshu ben Yusuf of Nazareth and his gaggle of knifemen, hookers and fishermen were all Jewish, and the Messiah is a Jewish myth/prophecy. The job description "Christ" only has validity within the perspective of Jewish prophecy so those historical/allegorical/metaphorical stories were included in the final collection determined by some group in Rome.

Both Old and New Testament predate and are included in the Qu'ran.

Seriously, I expect any one who has the cojones to post in "religion" subfora on any forum to know this much at the very least.

What do you suggest? "How can the world forgive Germany?"

Define "world" and "Germany." Oh, and also define "forgive."

I've already weighed in on this thread. Read back. tl;dr -- those of us who were not alive during WW2 have no skin in the game; those who did are dying off.

The nation of Germany has redeemed itself by not being an a-hole since then. Meanwhile "the world" has moved on and has other crap to worry about. And besides, every nation has done crappy things to other nations. My family name was part of the Saxon invasion of England. Two brothers went to Ireland as "planters" (aka a-holes) then migrated to Boston in the 1760s. At some point offspring of those men's offspring migrated to Oregon, making them 3rd stage a-holes. Now here I am, 1500 years later, totally not responsible for my ancestors' decisions to subjugate, dominate or exterminate other humans. I'm sorry, in my own way, but there's not a darn thing I can do to change the past. Nor can "Germany" change the past of what happened in Europe in 1914 or in 1939. Nor can England, or France, or Italy . . . .

And the Protocols have no more relevance to this discussion than Batman has in a discussion about new york.

 

[a_unique_person]

I feel the same about self identifying with race. What is the point in today's day and age? Theses things in themselves are triggers for potential racism. Too much the provincial thinking.

Why subdivide humans at all? That seems old world to me and counter productive.

People have a natural instinct to identify with a group. Nothing wrong with that. It's what that group does that can be the problem.

Even as a species we can be incredibly stupid, look at global warming, for instance. As soon as we need to look a few generations into the future, we lose the ability to act for our own species benefit.

 

[a_unique_person]

We seem to be discovering the probability that Jew have been lying about the idea of what god is for a terribly long time already, and finding the source of their stories in other cultures already established in their settlements - while the Jews continued exploring the earth and picking up on all these cultural similarities and taking advantage of the knowledge of that data gained through travel and simulation.

All religions are a work of fiction, including Judaism. I don't know why you would single that one out. If you want some irony, how about Buddism. Created by an atheist, we get a religion that prays to him. Burma and Thailand, both Buddhist, have a history of war and conquest.

 

[Navigator]

Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

Never mind. I can see you are emotionally attached.

 

[Navigator]

All religions are a work of fiction, including Judaism. I don't know why you would single that one out.

It happens to be part of the OP subject. Reasons why the Jews may have been singled out don;t need to be ignored.

 

[Navigator]

People have a natural instinct to identify with a group. Nothing wrong with that. It's what that group does that can be the problem.

Even as a species we can be incredibly stupid, look at global warming, for instance. As soon as we need to look a few generations into the future, we lose the ability to act for our own species benefit.

You seem to be saying humans are naturally stupid.

 

[anglolawyer]

People have a natural instinct to identify with a group. Nothing wrong with that. It's what that group does that can be the problem.

Even as a species we can be incredibly stupid, look at global warming, for instance. As soon as we need to look a few generations into the future, we lose the ability to act for our own species benefit.

Nothing? Not sure about that.

It seems to me to be almost as much a function of the limitations of language as of instinct. It is very hard to discuss or think about anything without conflating whole complexes of culture, people, places etc. in words like 'we' and 'you'. It's an example of Orwellian thought control - by restricting the vocabulary, we restrict the range of thought. I am not suggesting there is a Ministry of Truth (or whichever ministry was responsible for this) in charge but there are IMO powerful social elements that exploit and reinforce these tribal notions. After all, if 'we' are going to war 'we' don't want a whole bunch of people asking who 'we' are (and who 'they' are). Try fighting WW1 with that!

The OP bypasses all this and posits two constructs: 'the world' and 'Germany' and places them in a moralistic relationship of contrition and forgiveness. I question the whole concept. It's analogous to anthropomorphism - imbuing these concepts with the same emotional dynamic as might play out on a much smaller, human scale - say the schoolyard or the home.

 

[a_unique_person]

You seem to be saying humans are naturally stupid.

50% of the human race has below average intelligence.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I seen reports that an Auschwitz guard was arrested recently. We're still willing to go after those people.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

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I know. I believe it's just a neo-nazi way post-war fantasy.

Springs from the concerns about a "National Redoubt" in the Austrian Alps, I believe.