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Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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You have no evidence from antiquity for your obscure man and is just making baseless accusations.
Actually, there's quite a substantial base for my accusations. It comes from the very article that you attempted to quote mine. It's not my fault that it never occurred to you that someone might actually read the source article.

Your very claim that Jesus was a man means that you ignored the birth narratives in the NT, the claim that Jesus was God Creator, that he walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected, commissioned the disciples after the resurrection and ascended in a cloud.
It's amazing, and rather unfortunate, that you seem completely incapable of grasping the fundamentally simple concept that people can add ridiculously exaggerated elements to an historically true narrative.
 
Actually, there's quite a substantial base for my accusations. It comes from the very article that you attempted to quote mine. It's not my fault that it never occurred to you that someone might actually read the source article.


It's amazing, and rather unfortunate, that you seem completely incapable of grasping the fundamentally simple concept that people can add ridiculously exaggerated elements to an historically true narrative.

And there's surely the point that those ridiculously exaggerated elements don't float in a kind of ahistorical vacuum, but can be grounded in various sociological and religious contexts. Thus, the reported miracles of Jesus could help us to ground the description of him in the charismatic and sectarian context of first century Judaism, where wonder-working was almost expected. This does not 'prove' HJ, but it gives a plausible context for the exaggerated elements.

Dejudge seems to be saying that since we know miracles don't happen, therefore reported miracles in a certain text are of no value to the historian - not at all.
 
The problem with the Jesus case, perhaps uniquely in all of ancient history (except of course for other similar religious beliefs), is that it’s practitioners, who are bible-studies scholars, mostly in the devoutly Christian USA, such as Bart Ehrman and all his colleagues (such as Dominic Crossan) of whom he says "almost every properly trained scholar on the planet agrees", do say that such evidence is good enough not merely to say they think Jesus existed, but as I have pointed out here numerous times, they say it is a matter of undisputed “certainty”.

That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be.

Most historians (and indeed, I'm sure, most people on this thread) would concede that the MJ is possible, in the sense that Jesus could be an amalgamation of several first-century preachers and not a single individual; but that is not the most parsimonious explanation for all of the evidence.
 
You are right. IanS and Dejudge have a basic problem: they don't distinguish between using a text as a source of historical analysis and using a text as a reliable historical record. It is a common misconception in this debate. Obviously the Gospels are not reliable historical chronicles but are a source of information for historical analysis.



He is right about that, is he?

OK, where did I ever do what you claimed? Where did I fail to distinguish between using any historic text as a source for historical "analysis" (i.e. investigation?) vs. using a text as reliable historical record?
 
That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be.

Most historians (and indeed, I'm sure, most people on this thread) would concede that the MJ is possible, in the sense that Jesus could be an amalgamation of several first-century preachers and not a single individual; but that is not the most parsimonious explanation for all of the evidence.

The different types of MJ seem to be proliferating. I make that six.

1. The celestial MJ, who is crucified in the sub-lunar world (Doherty).
2. The spontaneously evolving myth of the preacher turned Logos, (John Frum).
3. The amalgamation of several actual preachers.
4. The amalgamation of several myths.
5. A typological/archetypal construct, derived from the Jewish Bible.
6. A forgery.


Maybe some overlaps. Any advance on that? Going, going ...
 
That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be.

Most historians (and indeed, I'm sure, most people on this thread) would concede that the MJ is possible, in the sense that Jesus could be an amalgamation of several first-century preachers and not a single individual; but that is not the most parsimonious explanation for all of the evidence.



Well first of all, for what must be at least the 50th time since I first quoted from Ehrman’s book when all the usual suspects here seemed to doubt it, Bart Ehrman literally does say that the existence of Jesus is "certain". And he also says that "almost every properly trained scholar on the planet agrees" (he does not specifically say they state it as "certainty", but that is obviously what he is suggesting since he is saying they agree with his view, and his stated view is one of "certainty"). And from memory, Dominic Crossan says "the crucifixion of Jesus is just about the best attested fact in all of ancient history", or a quote very similar to that.

And whether HJ posters here realise it or not, when they talk of "expert historians", those are people like Ehrman and Crossan and the rest who Ehrman includes when he speaks of "almost every properly trained scholar on the planet". And by the way, Bart Ehrman also calls himself a "historian", though as I have shown repeatedly, he is most definitely a bible studies scholar ... and so to is Crossan, and indeed almost all the others named in these HJ threads.

And before you or anyone else comes up with names of bible studies scholars who do express reservations over the existence of Jesus, I have said before here several times that out of what are at a rough guess probably many thousands of such bible scholars in the USA alone, it would be utterly astonishing if you could not find at least a few hundred who are very cautious if not openly sceptical to the point of some even saying they doubt his existence. But it’s clear from Ehrman’s comments that as he says almost every so-called “properly trained scholar” in this field does actually claim that Jesus definitely existed.

Of course Jesus is “possible”. Anything is possible. Though he certainly could not have been the miraculous figure described in the bible. Which begs the question of how far removed from the biblical description any such figure would have to be, and yet still qualify as anything whatsoever to do with the biblical beliefs. But on that issue, you should also understand that a great many Christians, inc. the top church leaders, often do say they believe that certain biblical miracles are literally true. Eg, the former Archbishop of Canterbury (Rowan Williams), when asked just that by Richard Dawkins, said that he does believe that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and that he believes in the virgin birth, amongst other miracles. And afaik, various recent Popes and their cardinals also very clearly do believe in all sort of Jesus miracles. So Christians often do really believe this stuff. And notice that almost all the so-called “historian bible-scholars” named in this thread, have been shown to have almost all of their earliest academic background steeped in total evangelical religious belief … so even though some like Ehrman say they have now changed their mind about that and are agnostic, he certainly used to be highly religious, as indeed did Dominic Crossan (in fact afaik, he still is).

And keep in mind here that when Ehrman, Crossan and the rest do say that Jesus was “certain”, they say that claiming that their evidence does come from the bible … they actually are claiming that the biblical writing is indeed reliable enough to claim Jesus was certain.
 
The different types of MJ seem to be proliferating. I make that six.

1. The celestial MJ, who is crucified in the sub-lunar world (Doherty).
2. The spontaneously evolving myth of the preacher turned Logos, (John Frum).
3. The amalgamation of several actual preachers.
4. The amalgamation of several myths.
5. A typological/archetypal construct, derived from the Jewish Bible.
6. A forgery.


Maybe some overlaps. Any advance on that? Going, going ...
Yes indeed. I have long been struck by the diversity in this field. Some of these things are contradictory, 1 with 6 for example, if 1 refers to a pre-existing myth. One of the problems that has bedevilled this debate is that all the mythicists even if their theories contradict one another, seem to make common cause. I have few problems with 3, but I might add another one: that the word "myth" in colloquial speech is sometimes used simply to mean, a story which is insufficiently sustained by evidence, and is therefore to be treated as false. I have few problems with that either. But 1 gives me the creeps.
 
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jhunter1163

That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be .
Well, it is what Bart Ehrman said, for example in a signed article that Huff 'n Puff ran:

Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.html

In fairness, that was in March 2012, as part of a publicity campaign for his book Did Jesus Exist?. By the next month, Bart came to realize that statements that pimp sales may also make the speaker sound unscholarly, and so, by April 24, Bart had watered down the phrase to almost certainly, in an interview here:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/b...nventing_jesus__an_interview_with_bart_ehrman

As to the alternative formulation, "Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be," is nearly self-refuting. How can John the Baptist's or Pontius Pilate's existence be any less confidently held than Jesus'? Both of the other men also have some corroboration other than their respective roles in works about Jesus; how can their existence not be strictly more confidently held than his? The circumstances of Dunker John's death are corroborated (well, without the dancing, but isn't that just typical of the NT?) How can they not be more confidently held than the particulars of Jesus' death?

And of course there are a few other characters that show up or are mentioned in the Jesus stories, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Augustus, Quirinius, ... about whose existence there is scarcely any doubt at all.

I'm 60-40 on Jesus. Julius Caesar was earlier. Do you seriously think I ought to be 60-40 on the earlier JC, or 60-40 about how, where and when he died?
 
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...

And of course there are a few other characters that show up or are mentioned in the Jesus stories, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Augustus, Quirinius, ... about whose existence there is scarcely any doubt at all.

I'm 60-40 on Jesus. Julius Caesar was earlier. Do you seriously think I ought to be 60-40 on the earlier JC, or 60-40 about how, where and when he died?
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Any experienced bull shipper will know to add some facts to his fancy story, to make it "real" to the listener.
The back page of Field & Stream magazine used to feature an article by Ed Zern, "Exit Laughing", where the tallest of tales were "verified" by pointing to the exact tree under which some of them were placed. :)
 
jhunter1163


Well, it is what Bart Ehrman said, for example in a signed article that Huff 'n Puff ran:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.html

In fairness, that was in March 2012, as part of a publicity campaign for his book Did Jesus Exist?. By the next month, Bart came to realize that statements that pimp sales may also make the speaker sound unscholarly, and so, by April 24, Bart had watered down the phrase to almost certainly, in an interview here:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/b...nventing_jesus__an_interview_with_bart_ehrman

As to the alternative formulation, "Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be," is nearly self-refuting. How can John the Baptist's or Pontius Pilate's existence be any less confidently held than Jesus'? Both of the other men also have some corroboration other than their respective roles in works about Jesus; how can their existence not be strictly more confidently held than his?

And of course there are a few other characters that show up or are mentioned in the Jesus stories, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Augustus, Quirinius, ... about whose existence there is scarcely any doubt at all.

I'm 60-40 on Jesus. Julius Caesar was earlier. Do you seriously think I ought to be 60-40 on the earlier JC, or 60-40 about how, where and when he died?

You have exposed the fundamental problems with the HJ argument.

You are admitting that your belief that there was an HJ is based on external corroborative evidence about John the Baptist [Not Jesus], Pilate [Not Jesus] and Herod the Great [Not Jesus], Herod Antipas [not Jesus], Augustus [not Jesus] and Quirinius [not Jesus]

You don't care that there is no external corroborative evidence for your HJ.

Your HJ argument is highly illogical and hopelessly fatal.

It is just total nonsense that you can claim a 64/40 probability that your HJ existed without a shred of corroboration.

You do not understand that Probabilities are derived from data not imagination.
 
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I'm 60-40 on Jesus. Julius Caesar was earlier. Do you seriously think I ought to be 60-40 on the earlier JC, or 60-40 about how, where and when he died?

I really wish people would stop trying to introduce this particular red herring. Obviously, there's going to be way more evidence for the existence of the most important man in the Roman Empire than there will be for some minor religious crank out in the hinterlands.

There is at least one extra-biblical reference to Jesus, that of Tacitus, that is considered to be authentic. While that reference leaves open the manner of his death (stoning vs. crucifixion), it certainly seems to confirm that there was indeed a minor religious crank who caused a bit of a stir and got himself executed. I'm not sure why that's even controversial; it's not like Christianity would suddenly topple if Jesus were shown not to have existed. Believers have rationalized far more than that away over the years.
 
jthunter

I really wish people would stop trying to introduce this particular red herring.
Me, too. Why did you bring it up, then?

That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be .
Julius Caesar is a responsive counterexample. Or has there been some new development in the meaning of anything?

I didn't say you endorsed the proposition, I said that a fact claim which you brought up, attributing it to others, has obvious counterexamples. Speaking of obvious,

Obviously, there's going to be way more evidence for the existence of the most important man in the Roman Empire than there will be for some minor religious crank out in the hinterlands.
And John the Baptist, whom I also mentioned, would be what, in your view?
 
I really wish people would stop trying to introduce this particular red herring. Obviously, there's going to be way more evidence for the existence of the most important man in the Roman Empire than there will be for some minor religious crank out in the hinterlands.

There is at least one extra-biblical reference to Jesus, that of Tacitus, that is considered to be authentic. While that reference leaves open the manner of his death (stoning vs. crucifixion), it certainly seems to confirm that there was indeed a minor religious crank who caused a bit of a stir and got himself executed. I'm not sure why that's even controversial; it's not like Christianity would suddenly topple if Jesus were shown not to have existed. Believers have rationalized far more than that away over the years.

Your claim that Tacitus mentioned Jesus is a fallacy.

The word Jesus is not in Tacitus Annals 15.44.

You very well know that even in the NT , even in gMark, that there was another person called the Christ--Not Jesus.

You very well know that in the very stories of Jesus that he was not known as the Christ.

In fact, Jesus himself in the stories forbid his own disciples to call him the Christ.

Jesus was known as John the Baptist or Elijah or one of the prophets--Not the Christ.

You very well know that Jesus did not start any new religion in gMark. Jesus did not want the people to be converted but to remain in sin.

Plus, for hundreds of years no apologetic writer ever used Tacitus Annals to argue that Jesus was known as the Christ.

In the 4th century, when Eusebius wrote Church History the author used the TF--Not Tacitus Annals.

Tacitus Annals with Christus was a very very late forgery and was fabricated after the end of the 4th century or after Sulpitius Severus "Sacred History".
 
That's not exactly what they say; most of the commentary I have seen has been along the lines that Jesus' existence and crucifixion are as certain as anything at such a large historical remove can be.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant by this and I realize you refined it a bit in a later post. I guess you mean that some people have said something like this. It is not true and I assume you didn't mean to say otherwise.

Most historians (and indeed, I'm sure, most people on this thread) would concede that the MJ is possible, in the sense that Jesus could be an amalgamation of several first-century preachers and not a single individual; but that is not the most parsimonious explanation for all of the evidence.

I don't think the most parsimonious argument is a very strong one with regards to the existence of an HJ. As I see it there are three ideas about the origin of Christianity:

1. There was a sect in the Jerusalem area in the early first century that was the precursor of Christianity. The Jesus character played some role in this sect either as a leader/founder or as a subject of worship. As the sect developed its beliefs were transferred to Gentile groups by the missionary efforts of its members. These Gentile groups developed Christianity as we know it today based on the beliefs they acquired from the early Jewish Jesus sect.

2. This possibility is the same as possibility 1 except that the information about the early Jewish sect beliefs including information about the Jesus character were transferred to the Gentile group via some sort of indirect transfer from individuals not part of the early Jewish Jesus sect.

3. This possibility is the same as possibility 2 except the Gentile group in which Christianity arose, created the Jesus character out of whole cloth.

Possibility 1, I think, is what most secular people believe about the origin of Christianity and certainly assuming that possibility 1 is true then the most parsimonious view is that Jesus was a real person that was in some way associated with this sect. However there is very little evidence of this early Jewish Jesus sect. Certainly without the NT writings almost nobody would have heard of them. The standard theory about why so little is known of this sect is that they were wiped out in one of the Roman wars against the Jews in the Palestinian area. But another reasonable explanation is that they didn't exist at all.

Possibility 2 and 3 are very similar. Christianity, as we know it, was developed by Greek speaking Gentiles living outside the Palestinian area. This early Christian group created Christianity by writing stories based on manipulations of the old testament and some real history and geography that they picked up from various sources. In the case of Luke, Josephus was certainly a source. The only difference between possibility 2 and possibility 3 was whether a real living individual existed that inspired the creation of their legends or that that individual was made up along with everything else that they didn't derive from the OT and the historical and geographical sources available to them.

If either possibility 2 or 3 is correct then I don't think the existence of an HJ is necessarily the most parsimonious explanation for the origin of Christianity. The early Christian writers wrote principally fiction to serve as the historical basis for their new religion. Why would they have been constrained to be factual in one particular aspect of the fiction that they wrote?
 
I'm sniffing at your 'historical value' since it might blur the useful distinction between a historical record, and a historical source. This was the conflation which I commented on first, since it elides the differences between something which is history, and something which is useful to history. Going back to 'Beowulf', it's obviously not history, since the hero kills monsters and dragons; but it might be useful as a source for historians, for example, with regard to how great mead-halls were constructed.

OK, zugzwang, what bits of the NT might be useful as a source for historians, in the sense that Beowulf might be?
 
I wasn't quite sure what you meant by this and I realize you refined it a bit in a later post. I guess you mean that some people have said something like this. It is not true and I assume you didn't mean to say otherwise.



I don't think the most parsimonious argument is a very strong one with regards to the existence of an HJ. As I see it there are three ideas about the origin of Christianity:

1. There was a sect in the Jerusalem area in the early first century that was the precursor of Christianity. The Jesus character played some role in this sect either as a leader/founder or as a subject of worship. As the sect developed its beliefs were transferred to Gentile groups by the missionary efforts of its members. These Gentile groups developed Christianity as we know it today based on the beliefs they acquired from the early Jewish Jesus sect.

2. This possibility is the same as possibility 1 except that the information about the early Jewish sect beliefs including information about the Jesus character were transferred to the Gentile group via some sort of indirect transfer from individuals not part of the early Jewish Jesus sect.

3. This possibility is the same as possibility 2 except the Gentile group in which Christianity arose, created the Jesus character out of whole cloth.

Possibility 1, I think, is what most secular people believe about the origin of Christianity and certainly assuming that possibility 1 is true then the most parsimonious view is that Jesus was a real person that was in some way associated with this sect. However there is very little evidence of this early Jewish Jesus sect. Certainly without the NT writings almost nobody would have heard of them. The standard theory about why so little is known of this sect is that they were wiped out in one of the Roman wars against the Jews in the Palestinian area. But another reasonable explanation is that they didn't exist at all.

Possibility 2 and 3 are very similar. Christianity, as we know it, was developed by Greek speaking Gentiles living outside the Palestinian area. This early Christian group created Christianity by writing stories based on manipulations of the old testament and some real history and geography that they picked up from various sources. In the case of Luke, Josephus was certainly a source. The only difference between possibility 2 and possibility 3 was whether a real living individual existed that inspired the creation of their legends or that that individual was made up along with everything else that they didn't derive from the OT and the historical and geographical sources available to them.

If either possibility 2 or 3 is correct then I don't think the existence of an HJ is necessarily the most parsimonious explanation for the origin of Christianity. The early Christian writers wrote principally fiction to serve as the historical basis for their new religion. Why would they have been constrained to be factual in one particular aspect of the fiction that they wrote?

There is no need for all those un-evidenced modern speculation.

Since 117-138 CE Aristides have explained how the Jesus cult of Christians started.

If Aristides is not a witness of the start of the Jesus cult then it makes no sense to invent stories.


This is clear to you, O King, that there are four classes of men in this world:— Barbarians and Greeks, Jews and Christians. The Barbarians, indeed, trace the origin of their kind of religion from Kronos and from Rhea and their other gods;

the Greeks, however, from Helenos, who is said to be sprung from Zeus. And by Helenos there were born Aiolos and Xuthos; and there were others descended from Inachos and Phoroneus, and lastly from the Egyptian Danaos and from Kadmos and from Dionysos.

The Jews, again, trace the origin of their race from Abraham, who begot Isaac, of whom was born Jacob. And he begot twelve sons who migrated from Syria to Egypt; and there they were called the nation of the Hebrews, by him who made their laws; and at length they were named Jews.

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.


There was never any HJ from the start of the Jesus cult.

Jesus is God who came down from heaven.
 
Well, first of all I am not using any unusual definition of the term “evidence”. See the typical dictionary definition below for example.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evidence
Evidence.
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.
tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es
1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
2. To support by testimony; attest.Idiom:
in evidence
1. Plainly visible; to be seen: It was early, and few pedestrians were in evidence on the city streets.
2. Law As legal evidence: submitted the photograph in evidence.


Note that all these dictionary definitions, although they do not always spell it out in their ultra brief single line explanations, actually require that what is claimed as “evidence”, always implies that a physical examination of the claimed information is available to be checked & confirmed at least in principle.

For example, above where the definition talks of a broken window - the assumption is that a jury (or anyone) could, if they wished, check the claim of that “evidence”, ie check the “testimony”, by verifying that it was actually true that the window was indeed broken. If you cannot check and confirm that, at least in principle, then that testimony offered as “evidence” is not reliable in any credible way at all.

The same applies to seemingly less directly tangible things such as a witness saying (for example, as in the definition above) a claim or testimony saying there were few pedestrians on the streets at the time of the incident. That is only a claim of a particular item of evidence, but it is a claim which has to be supported by external confirmation where others can confirm that they too were present at that time and agreed that the streets were clear. If you cannot confirm such claims, even in principle, then what is offered as “evidence” is not reliable in any known measure at all. In court (for example), you might be allowed to claim such evidence before a jury, but in that case the jury consider it only as an unconfirmed unsupported claim, and the opposing lawyers will always emphasise that to the jury.

If a witness (such as Tacitus or the bible writers) offers unsupported and unconfirmed claims like that (ie offers it to us as his “jury“ trying to decide what is reasonable, reliable and credible evidence of that which is being claimed in respect of Jesus), but only offers it, not as what he himself ever saw or knew, but instead only as hearsay obtained from someone else, then as you should know, that is rarely allowed to be presented to a jury, precisely because it has been proved in past legal cases to be extremely unreliable and likely to mislead a jury (ie us in this case) into seriously mistaken conclusions. However, if in addition, that hearsay comes from unknown unnamed anonymous sources that are never produced and even cannot be produced (eg because of a passage of time by which any such person, if they were ever real at all, would be long since dead), then any suggestion of that being fit to put as claim before any jury is never allowed, for the very obvious reason that such claims, far from being truly evidence of what they say, are not remotely credible or reliable in any measure at all … ie, absolute zero credibility as the claimed evidence“, and absolutely never admissible as a claim of any such evidence at all.

And before anyone makes the very silly objection that we are not in a court and that different rules apply either here on this forum, or that different rules apply to bible historians when they make claims of having evidence - nobody has said that we are in court! … but the same rules of “evidence” most certainly do apply. And the reason for that is - what is allowed in a jury trial as admissible “evidence” (ie testimony offered for the jury to consider whether it is actually evidence of that which is claimed), are rules that have been very carefully established over more than a century of extremely detailed examination at the highest and most expert level possible, to decide what truly is presentable as genuine “evidence” for anyone’s consideration in the act of deciding what is the likely truth of anything. And certain types of testimony are most definitely NOT admissible before any jury in any such case of anyone trying to decide what is reasonable to accept as “evidence” of the witness claims about anything the witness says … and those types which are so unreliable and so likely to mislead and jurors (ie us in this case) inc. hearsay in general (which is rarely allowed, and never without clear warnings from the judge), and anonymous hearsay which is absolutely never allowed.

If anyone here continues to say that sort of legal precedent and legal finding will not apply to us when we act as jurors tying to asses the testimony offered as evidence by a book such as Tacitus or a book such as the bible, then what they are claiming is that special rules and special pleading now apply in the case of bible-scholars and their subject of the historicity of Jesus. Rules already “proven” in court to be wholly and completely unreliable, to such an extent that they must never be put before the jury at all … because it is not, and cannot be, really “evidence”! What it is, and what the courts have established it to be as a matter of legal ruling, is unsupported and unconfirmed claim and testimony (not “evidence”, but claim and testimony) of a type so inherently unreliable as to be of no use at all in any responsible consideration.

That’s not to say you cannot rely on such testimony as the bible and Tacitus, Josephus etc. You most certainly can claim that as your evidence if you wish. Because there is no judge here to rule it out of consideration. But what it means is that you are relying upon a type of testimony which has already been proved by the courts to be so unreliable as to be unworthy of any responsible consideration at all.

And if you say (as I think others have done) that ancient history only ever has that sort of “evidence” to work with, and hence if we ruled that out of consideration then all of ancient history would collapse, then first of all that is not true - it would not all be collapse at all. And secondly, that is not, and never could be, any sort of excuse for attempting to draw positive conclusions from such completely discredited wholly unreliable testimony as anonymous hearsay presented only centuries after the claimed events by even more anonymous self-interested religious copyists.

I continue to dispute your use of the word, evidence, IanS. My definition is consistent with most of the dictionary definitions that you listed and I think it is close to the way the word is used most often. The criteria I use for what constitutes evidence:

My criteria is that for something to be evidence of a proposition it must not be known to be false and it is must be supportive of the truth of the proposition if it is true.

This is, admittedly, a loose definition. The advantage of a loose definition for the word, evidence, is that it mostly avoids the kind of semantic arguments that you often engage in these threads. You frequently make the claim that something is either not evidence, or not reliable evidence. The problem with that is that the thread diverges into a discussion what is evidence and what is reliable evidence. If you think something can be shown to be false, just state why you think that thing is false. If you think that something doesn't support the proposition even if it is true just explain why you think that. Characterizing a claim as not evidence or not reliable evidence just adds your personal opinion about the meaning of the word, evidence, becoming unnecessarily an element of the discussion.

My suspicion is that you have fallen into a confirmation bias trap with regard to the use of the term, reliable evidence. If you have formed an opinion about something and evidence exists which provides support for a proposition that is opposed to your belief it is very easy to discard that evidence as unreliable. When one has formed an opinion it takes strong evidence to counter that opinion and for some people that strongly cling to beliefs no matter how strong the evidence is they will not change their opinion. It is certainly possible that this does not apply to your beliefs with regard to this, but my claim here is that your style of argument suggests it has.
 
OK, zugzwang, what bits of the NT might be useful as a source for historians, in the sense that Beowulf might be?

I wasn't arguing that the NT is like Beowulf. I don't think you can directly compare texts in that way, especially ones from such different societies.

I would think that some parts of the NT could give an insight into the thinking of Jewish sects, how they interact with other sects (often with hostility), how they teach, what charismatic Judaism is like, the role of eschatology and apocalypticism. Then of course, you could study how Christianity began to pull away from Judaism, and which ideas were retained, and which kept.

You could do all this whether or not you are an adherent of HJ or not, unless of course, you subscribe to the view that it is all forged. But presumably forgeries can give historians a lot of information.
 
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