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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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She did the TMB tests...she just "forgot" to mention it in court. Sara Gino discovered these tests. Yummi/Mach wants to give points to Stefanoni for noting and not hiding the tests meanwhile ignoring the facts that she kept these tests to herself until she was caught by Gino. Then it was... OH, I simply forgot to mention that....etc

Just like in the detention hearing she forgot that sample 36B quantified as too low multiple times and in her confused state she told the judge that the sample was of adequate size...a few hundred picograms when the truth was far from that...in fact 10 picograms and maybe even zero picograms ranges too low to test in 2007 and even 2014 without highly specialized collection, containment and test equipment...even a whole separate building and don't give the cabbies too much credit...I doubt their tests were much better than Stefanoni....they just knew enough to cover the tracks better, so as to distance themselves from the shoddy work done in Rome by Biondo and Stefanoni.

Yes, thanks for the clarification, but I meant that she didn't perform confirmatory tests for blood. The TMB test is not a confirmatory test. Why she didn't perform a confirmatory test I can't really understand.

And yes, it was when I saw those "too low"s written that I started to see that something was wrong with the prossecution. Eventually I realised that everything was wrong though.
 
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Filomena may have had drugs in her room and wanted to get home and deal with that before calling the cops. Amanda misunderstood what Filomena wanted. That is why when Filomena got off the phone from talking with Amanda and Marco asked her which one of the girls it was Filomena said "the stupid one". :mad:

Come now....that cant be true...Filomena was with her girlfriend at a death festival IIRC...something crazy like that. So she could not have said "dumb one" to Marco.

It would be right about this time when Filomenas girlfriend testified that Filomena then spent 1/2 hour or better looking for her car that she forgot where she parked...so no fair of Filomena calling anyone the dumb one IMO. That would be like calling Filomena the neat one. Who cant find the car for 1/2 hour? The dumb one?
 
Yes, thanks for the clarification, but I meant that she didn't perform confirmatory tests for blood. The TMB test is not a confirmatory test. Why she didn't perform a confirmatory test I can't really understand.

And yes, it was when I saw those "too low"s written that I started to see that something was wrong with the prossecution. Eventually I realised that everything was wrong though.

There's only one "too low" that pertains to 36b. The rest are for other samples, the corresponding egrams of which are being hidden by stefanoni.
 
Come now....that cant be true...Filomena was with her girlfriend at a death festival IIRC...something crazy like that. So she could not have said "dumb one" to Marco.

It would be right about this time when Filomenas girlfriend testified that Filomena then spent 1/2 hour or better looking for her car that she forgot where she parked...so no fair of Filomena calling anyone the dumb one IMO. That would be like calling Filomena the neat one. Who cant find the car for 1/2 hour? The dumb one?

That dumbass filomena should have locked her window.
 
I already know your view. The problem is that have very close to first hand experience with these realities so I know exactly what to believe. And this includes Amanda's description of her interrogation.

These realities include Perugia? They include Mignini or other people? Does it include Anna Donnino?
And Knox's description refers to, what, the narrative in her book, or the different narratives she offered - or failed to offer - on other occasions?
Does your belief extend up to Knox's defence claim that she suffered a false memory syndrome? That she mystariously recovered her memory later? Does your belief include Knox's maintaining that she didn't lie, that she had these memories of blood on Raffaele's hands, that she actually remembered about Lumumba in her apartment?
I won't add things but there are some many other elements on this topic. I ask myself how a rational person could approach this and find something Knox said "credible", or even "consistent".

You also may like to consider that Knox and Sollecito told an infinite series of inconsistencies days before and after the alleged "interrogation".

I've seen convincing proof in this forum that DNA results were hidden in some instances.

Where? And how did it happen that no judge noticed it?

It's also very easy to see the contrast with the work done by the Carabinieri.

Yes, but the Carabinieri were working in 2013, as judge-appointed experts outside an investigation, and on the analysis of just one DNA sample.

This argument does not make an investigation be unreliable. If you wanted to develope a rational analysis, then you should collect data about DNA investigation performed on a large number other cases, by both RIS and Scientific Police, maybe over tha same years, and you would need to use that as term of comparison.

The TMB test is not a confirmatory test, the problem is that she didn't bother (or did she?) to perform one. I personally think she did perform one but didn't like the results, but it's impossible to be sure. But regardless, you can also look at not performing the test as the same thing as hiding the test.

If you consider the investigation, you actually cannot account any single action and choice to the investigators alone, because the defence experts were there on Dec. 18. when the footprint analysis was performed, and should have attended all the laboratory tests (and may have required them to be done, if they were missing).

The truth is the TMB tests were just performed, but not written down in the final report. However, their records was made accessible when the defence requested it.

You may think people here are very naive but not all of us are. Amanda and Rafaelle were being interrogated as suspects, not witnesses. The formal classification is irrelevant.

When I hear this claim I can hardly understand what people mean exactly. The "formal classification" has a content, and has to do with what determines something to be lawful or not. Whether the police subjectively suspected about them, to me, is irrelevant. What is relevant is if there were good reasons to interrogate Knox as a person infrmed about facts before 01.45, and if it was correct to stop the interrogation at that time, and if it was lawful to collect a spontaneous statement.
To me, these things were all done properly and the choices and papers demonstrate a high quality - in terms of compliance with rules - of the investigation work. Many police investigators would have not stopped the interrogation at 01.45. They would have gone forward. Several prosecutors would have not considered Knox a potential suspect before 05.45. Some prosecutors would have not considered Knox a suspect of murder from the beginning, but just charged her for covering up for the murderer. Instead these investigators made the right choice with the right timing.

I don't believe the budget excuse.

It is actually obvious if you know a little about the Italian system. The fact that interrogations are not recorded is verifiable, it is a fact. It is normal. Therefore, it is not suspicious. Recording all police interrogations would carry a foolish expense, because of the beaurocratic rules of the Italian system: whenever there is a verbatim recording, there will be someone who will request a transcript. Imagine if all parites could require transcripts of all investigation activities.

The most interesting aspect in this post of yours is, in my opinion, your reasoning regarding the body temperature measurement. You are saying that the measument would be imprecise. I think the only way to interpret what you are saying is that it was late for the measurement to be usable to estimate tjhe TOD (I mean, there's no reason why the measurement itself would be imprecise). But how would you know that without knowing the actual TOD?

Your reasoning seems circular. It looks like you require knowing the TOD as a pre-requisite in order to calculate the TOD. You say "how would you know that without knowing the actual TOD?". It makes no sense. The temperature measurment is the only datum (together with environmental temperature), the TOD is only a probabilistic deduction along a curve. But when you are at a distance of 12 hours or more from the probable TOD, the error is so big that it becomes useless to the effects of this case.
Meredith's body was discovered at least 12 hours after her death, and temperature could not have been taken before 16.00 - 16.30 in any event (time of arrival of scientific police). So the temperature that they would have taken at that time, we don't know what exactly that would be, but what we can deduce is that it would have been anyway too low to calculate TOD with any reliable useful margin. You could only calculate an indication over a 5-6 hours frame like something between 20.00 and 2.00.
 
Come now....that cant be true...Filomena was with her girlfriend at a death festival IIRC...something crazy like that. So she could not have said "dumb one" to Marco.

It would be right about this time when Filomenas girlfriend testified that Filomena then spent 1/2 hour or better looking for her car that she forgot where she parked...so no fair of Filomena calling anyone the dumb one IMO. That would be like calling Filomena the neat one. Who cant find the car for 1/2 hour? The dumb one?

When talking with Marco, Filomena did refer to Amanda as the stupid one. Meredith, a year old than Amanda, was apparently smarter or more sophisticated. Amanda found her Harry Potter who liked to cuddle. Meredith found her rock drummer who, when walking with his buddies, ignored her when they passed each other on the street. These are the facts.
 
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When talking with Marco, Filomena did refer to Amanda as the stupid one. Meredith, a year old than Amanda, was apparently smarter or more sophisticated. Amanda found her Harry Potter who liked to cuddle. Meredith found her rock drummer who, when walking with his buddies, ignored her when they passed each other on the street. These are the facts.

Stupid is as stupid does.

--Forrest Gump
 
But it's incorrect to go with "not", because this is an argument brought up by the defence as a disproval.
It is an argument that was brought up by the defence in order to disprove Battistelli's testimony about the 8.35 arrrival and other testimonies about the 10 minutes clock error.
When you bring in counter-evidence, such evidence needs to exist, to be substantial, or the argument doesn't work.

The same goes for other arguments which are defensive counter-arguments, such as the alleged profile of Knox reliable since a "honor student" allegedly making her unlikely to attend Rudy Guede, or the alleged incompatibility of the bed sheet stain with the kitchen knife (or - at the same time - alleged incompatibility with one or more wounds).

Compatibility and conjectures (or pieces of information like the April's fool prank) are not pieces of evidence for the prosecution, or not directly; conjectures and compatibility are not effective in order to prove guilt, however they can be effective to disprove defensive arguments (and also propaganda arguments).

Moreover, a more general principle (this goes also for those who are actual pieces of evidence): the principle of presumption of innocence is not a method of evidence analysis. That would be a prejudice of innocence. Evidence must be assessed neutrally, with no presumption. The presumption of innocence only needs to be considered at the end of the process of evidence assessment, when it comes to assess reasonable doubt. If after all evidence collected there is still a margin of doubt, then on that final decision you apply the presumption of innocence. But not prior to that.

You yourself said the phone call timings might be nefarious, or not. They can't really inform an opinion on guilt or innocence, then.

Sure, if the prosecution brings up a point, the defense needs to come up with a pretty good 'or not'. This has been done with the phone call timings. It has also been done with 36b and the bra clasp. And Curatolo and Quintaville. And burglary staging. And the bath mat. And the luminol blobs. Every serious piece of inculpatory evidence has a substantial, credible 'or not'.

You are correct when you say that each piece of evidence needs to be assessed neutrally, with no presumption. Like Rudy's print in Meredith's blood. That's a piece of evidence that you can't really say 'or not' to! They didn't go out looking for Rudy in particular, they just discovered him by neutrally following where the evidence led.

Sadly, there was an early presumption of guilt of Amanda and Raffaele in this case, which interfered with the neutral collection and assessment of some evidence. One of the problems with 36b and the bra clasp is that they were not found and assessed in the neutral way you recommend, and the neutral way in which evidence against Rudy was gathered. That's part of the big 'or not' that goes against those pieces of evidence.

If you begin with a presumption of innocence, you change your mind when you get some piece of evidence or combination of evidence that doesn't have a reasonable 'or not'. Start with innocent Rudy. Handprint in Meredith's blood. DNA in Meredith. Doesn't belong in the cottage. Presumption of innocence is overcome. Rudy is guilty.

Start with innocent Amanda, innocent Raffaele. So far, there is no piece of evidence or combination of evidence that overcomes that presumption.

Compatibility and conjectures are for propaganda wars. If compatibility and conjecture are being relied upon in court, the case is weak.

I am still going with not. :)
 
Your argument is not with me, it is with Mignini himself. He tells Drew Griffin that he specifically stopped the Ficarra portion of the interrogation, precisely because Knox was a suspect from that point on. Please read the interview... Mignini's answers are in Italian. It was Mignini himself who told Ficarra, so he says, that if she was to continue then it would be unlawful... he even quotes the relevant law to Griffin.

I have read it. And what you say is false. He doesn't say that to Griffin, acutlaly he doesn't say he ever attended that interrogation at all.

In fact, Mignini arrived at the police station after 2am, when he passed by Knox's interrogation room, her interrogation was already over. She was there alone and calm with just one police officer. Mignini did not visit her, he went directly at an office room together with Profazio and they discussed about everything. He was told that Knox had offered a 'confession' and the police had stopped the interrogation but they did not issue any legal paper because the prosecutor was coming.
Then Knox was given a chamomille tee, rested (as for her testimony, and in accord with police officers' testimonies, Donnino etc.), after a while Mignini told her about a change of legal status, rights, need of a lawyer etc. Then told her he could not question her but he could collect statements if she wanted to help investigations. All of Knox's claims, for years, were just consistent with this. This timeline was never contradicted thoughout the trial.

So this is not for you. It's for anyone else who wants to put their finger on this. You will continue saying what you will say.

Read Mignini's interview.

I've read it.

I've read also the testimonies.

And I've also read Massei.

You go on making false claims. I don't know if you believe them. They are false anyway.
 
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You also may like to consider that Knox and Sollecito told an infinite series of inconsistencies days before and after the alleged "interrogation".

Machiavelli, I have heard you say this over and over. What are these inconsistencies? Did one of them get the time they ate dinner wrong?
 
I have read it. And what you say is false. He doesn't say that to Griffin, acutlaly he doesn't say he ever attended that interrogation at all.

In fact, Mignini arrived at the police station after 2am, when he passed by Knox's interrogation room, her interrogation was already over. She was there alone and calm with just one police officer. Mignini did not visit her, he went directly at an office room together with Profazio and they discussed about everything. He was told that Knox had offered a 'confession' and the police had stopped the interrogation but they did not issue any legal paper because the prosecutor was coming.
Then Knox was given a chamomille tee, rested (as for her testimony, and in accord with police officers' testimonies, Donnino etc.), after a while Mignini told her about a change of legal status, rights, need of a lawyer etc. Then told her he could not question her but he could collect statements if she wanted to help investigations. All of Knox's claims, for years, were just consistent with this. This timeline was never contradicted thoughout the trial.



I've read it.

I've read also the testimonies.

And I've also read Massei.

You go on making false claims. I don't know if you believe them. They are false anyway.

And then he denied her a lawyer for a couple of days, stripped her naked and put her in solitary. Illegally, because he didn't write a statement justifying his actions, and because he violated the ECHR by what he did.
 
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.. snip ..
* The police released a photo of what appeared to be a bloody bathroom and the photo implied Amanda had showered in a very bloody bathroom. The police did not mention the photo had been sprayed with a chemical which reacts with protein in the blood and bathroom was not how it would appear to the naked eye. .. snip ..
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That is an understatement! That spray made the bathroom look like a slaughter house. I bet many people still believe that is what the bathroom looked like when Amanda showered in it. Imagine if one of the people sitting on the jury has seen that photo?
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I laugh every time I read the phrase "spontaneous statement."

My feeling reading posts from Mach is that he's in a confident mood right now. I stopped caring about his analysis of the evidence on the day he mentioned Amanda's comment to her mother that she was at Raffaele's flat (I was there) as if she'd been saying she was at the Villa. After that, what possible insight could he bring to the proceedings? This is the kind of comment one makes who has not the slightest interest in facts. I can't speculate why.

This was a simple case from the beginning. One intruder, one thief, one killer, and that guy has been in prison for some time now.

I think it was Diocletus who said it sort of like this: Climb, Crap, Steal, Rape, Kill.

And then go dancing, and then leave the country. How long was it before Guede called the police again?
 
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Failure to measure body temperature was (in my opinion) a totally justified choice. Mignini had late doubts about the choice but I disagree with his doubts: it was a correct choice, the body temperature would have been an imprecise and useless datum.
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Of course you do. You like it when the law pretends that Meredith was killed later than she actually was. Saint Rudy's sweet and beautiful memory as Meredith's hero must not be sullied.

True justice my ^ss,

d

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I have read it. And what you say is false. He doesn't say that to Griffin, acutlaly he doesn't say he ever attended that interrogation at all.

This is what Mignini said.... please also note, that Mignini lies about Donnino being there the whoel time. Donnino testified she arrived at 12:30, 90 minutes into the interrogation, and testified that it needed "mediation". So that's lie No. 1 for Mignini in this interview....

CNN said:
0’50’’ Mignini: Oh, the police interrogated her. I was told about it. I wanted to explain this. I remember that I had gone to sleep and the director of the flying squad, Dr. Profazio, called me, because he tells me: “There are developments; Raffaele in fact has denied what he had said before”. So I went down* [Translator’s note: This seems to imply Mignini was not sleeping at home but instead somewhere on a higher floor at the Questura.] and the head of the flying squad told me what had happened. At some point they tell us that Amanda has made this statement.

And thus her interrogation as a person informed of the facts was suspended by the police in compliance with Article 63 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure [c.p.p. - Codice di Procedura Penale], because if evidence appears that incriminates the person, the person being questioned as a person informed of the facts can no longer be heard, and we must stop. “Everyone stop! There must be a defense attorney [present]”. And thus the police stopped and informed Amanda, who had placed herself on the scene of the crime and who said that she had accompanied Lumumba and let him in and that then Lumumba, in the other room, allegedly committed a sexual act and killed Meredith. This is what she said.

2’11’’ Then I was called, I was informed about this, I went to Amanda who, I remember how she was, what she looked like, I remember her very well, she remained imprinted in my memory, I still remember then two things about Amanda that struck me at the time: first, she looked like she was relieved of a burden and second, she was like, and this is another detail that was impressive, it seemed as if she was terrified of Lumumba.

20’48’’ Then I, as I had in some way to, let’s say… this police interrogation had been suspended. At that point I remember that… they made me notice that Amanda, because she wanted to go on talking, I remember she had, like a need to. So I told her: “you can make statements to me; I will not ask questions, since if you make a spontaneous statement and I collect it, I will collect your statement as if I were in fact a notary”. She then repeated [her story] to the interpreter, who was Mrs. Donnino, I remember there was a police woman officer who wrote the statement down [verbalizzava], I did not ask questions. She basically repeated what she had told the police and she signed the statement. Basically I didn’t ask Amanda questions. Not before, since the police asked them and I was not there, and not after, since she made spontaneous statements. Had I been asking her questions, a defense attorney should have been there. This is the procedure.

05’24 CNN: She had an interpreter during the whole time?

05’26’’ Mignini: Yes.

Mignini even catches himself in a lie....

the person being questioned as a person informed of the facts can no longer be heard, and we must stop.

they made me notice that Amanda, because she wanted to go on talking, I remember she had, like a need to. So I told her: “you can make statements to me; I will not ask questions, since if you make a spontaneous statement and I collect it, I will collect your statement as if I were in fact a notary”

So, in short, Mignini DID NOT STOP. He continued, against the very law he'd quoted to Ficara..... Article 63 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure.

Once again, this response is not to you. You will simply argue against the obvious.... Please do not respond.
 
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30-40 minutes later than alerting Filomena is an incorrect calculation in my opinion; that may be a figure if you want to consider the first contact Knox had with Filomena, but what I call to 'alert' Filomena is giving her the information about an alleged break in, after the finding of broken window in her room.

The earlier delay is also suspicious in my opinion (why didn't Knox inspect and find out the broken window immediately on her first visit home? why did she call Filomena before trying to collect any information herself?)
But the latter delay, on this I don't see a 30-40 minutes gap, I see a 18 minutes gap.

This gap is anyway significant because at this point Knox and Filomena should be in red alarm, already discovered the burglary and Filomena told her to call the police immediately.

Why did Knox and Sollecito wait these further 18 minutes? It doesn't make sense if they are innocent and actig straightforward.
If they are guilty instead, they might have had hesitation before calling the police. In particular, they might have wanted to wait for Filomena. Because it's clear that what a guilty Knox's would have in mind is to have some other roommate there on the calling of police and discovery of the body.

I disagree. If we are going to figure out what they would do if guilty I say they would have gone to Gubbio. This idea that Amanda, unable to handle the 112 call, would want to be anywhere near the discovery is crazy. If she were guilty why would she think purposely delaying calling the cops wouldn't draw the exact attention you are giving it?

How often do you switch the coffee cups when served by the enemy?

The PP didn't immediately break the door down, even though they had the additional knowledge of the phones. Filomena decided with all the information to breakdown the door. Why didn't trained police immediately knock the door down?

It is clear that what had transpired wasn't obvious.

Oh and I thought Italians just don't call the cops, you know like Nara.
 
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Yes, but the Carabinieri were working in 2013, as judge-appointed experts outside an investigation, and on the analysis of just one DNA sample.

This argument does not make an investigation be unreliable. If you wanted to develope a rational analysis, then you should collect data about DNA investigation performed on a large number other cases, by both RIS and Scientific Police, maybe over tha same years, and you would need to use that as term of comparison.

Someday in the future Italy will enforce appropriate scientific and legal standards for collecting, analyzing, and documenting forensic evidence and Italian police scientists will regularly and routinely meet those standards. I understand the RIS did this when they analyzed and provided results on the one DNA item they were tasked to analyze by the Nencini Court. Someday what the RIS did will be the standard and the Italian people will be safer for it.
 
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Machiavelli - here is an English translation of Article 63, the one that Mignini says he quote to Ficarra, so as to stop the interrogation.

When a person who is neither an indagato (suspect) nor an imputato (defendant), interrogated by the police or the prosecutor, reveals pieces of information that might lead to his incrimination, the interrogation must be immediately stopped, the person must be invited to nominate a lawyer and be warned that the information disclosed may render necessary an investigation. These self-incriminating statements are inadmissible in court.

Why did Mignini not stop? The very law he quoted (apparently from memory) said he must.
 
Machiavelli, you have not addressed the time of death issue.

The court has heard evidence that someone opened a Naruto file at 21:26, by which time Meredith was almost certainly already dead, based on the eyewitness statements, autopsy reports and Rudy's own Skype conversation.

Doesn't that sink the whole prosecution case immediately? If Amanda and Raffaele were not present when Meredith Kercher was killed, they cannot have been party to her murder, surely?

That's before we add in the fact that the court has seen evidence that computer activity continued all night, showing that in fact they weren't ever at Amanda's house that night.
 
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