Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Paninaro]

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.
A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection; and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

Machiavelli, did Crini claim yesterday that it didn't matter if the defence theory about the slow clock was correct, because Battistelli arrived by foot ahead of Marsi? Or was his argument different from that?

Was it anything like the one made below?

The defense maintains that the figure on the left is Marsi and that the figure on the left is Inspector Battistelli.[37] That contradicts the testimony of both Marsi and Battistelli. According two both officers of the Postal Police after failing to find #7 Via della Pergola they did a loop and tried again.[38] When they reached the entrance to the parking garage Battistelli exited the vehicle but Marsi never did.[39] Battistelli went to look for #7 Via della Pergola which he quickly found.[40] He then waved to Marsi from the gate who drove the Fiat Punto from the parking garage to the parking lot at the cottage.[41] Marsi parked the car at the cottage and went to meet Battistelli who was already talking to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.[42] When Marsi caught up to Battistelli he was already at the front door to the cottage.[43] The defense has the two officers meeting in the middle of the street which didn't happen according to the officers. The defense has picked two set of unidentifiable legs that cannot be Battistelli and Marsi and just decided that it is them because it is convenient for this argument.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_112_Calls

 

[Machiavelli]

You first.

30-40 minutes later than alerting Filomena is an incorrect calculation in my opinion; that may be a figure if you want to consider the first contact Knox had with Filomena, but what I call to 'alert' Filomena is giving her the information about an alleged break in, after the finding of broken window in her room.

The earlier delay is also suspicious in my opinion (why didn't Knox inspect and find out the broken window immediately on her first visit home? why did she call Filomena before trying to collect any information herself?)
But the latter delay, on this I don't see a 30-40 minutes gap, I see a 18 minutes gap.

This gap is anyway significant because at this point Knox and Filomena should be in red alarm, already discovered the burglary and Filomena told her to call the police immediately.

Why did Knox and Sollecito wait these further 18 minutes? It doesn't make sense if they are innocent and actig straightforward.
If they are guilty instead, they might have had hesitation before calling the police. In particular, they might have wanted to wait for Filomena. Because it's clear that what a guilty Knox's would have in mind is to have some other roommate there on the calling of police and discovery of the body.

 

[Planigale]

You are correct. But in fact I mistook 26 seconds about the call to Vanessa (by memory), and I did not remember the exact timing of the first call to the Carabinieri, but place all calls to Carabinieri within a 120 seconds error.

So, the meaning of my post was to show there was no 12.42 call to the Carabinieri, as claimed by Bill.

In fact the first call to the Carabinieri is 16-18 minutes late compared to the alarming call to Filomena who told her to call the police, that is late as for what we should expect.

I put myself in Filomena's place; I am a trainee lawyer, I have rented a room in my flat to an Italian student whose English is poor and has been in the country for just over a month. She phones me up and says my room in the flat has been broken into. Do I ring the police myself or leave it to my flat mate whose room has not been broken into who speaks English poorly and does not know how the system works.

I think the more suspicious thing is Filomena failed to call herself. In Amanda's place I would be spending time rehearsing what to say, looking up words I would not know in Italian like break in robbery etc. Do I even know what number to ring? Is it 999? or 911? how do you contact the police in Italy?

 

[Diocletus]

You are correct. But in fact I mistook 26 seconds about the call to Vanessa (by memory), and I did not remember the exact timing of the first call to the Carabinieri, but place all calls to Carabinieri within a 120 seconds error.

So, the meaning of my post was to show there was no 12.42 call to the Carabinieri, as claimed by Bill.

In fact the first call to the Carabinieri is 16-18 minutes late compared to the alarming call to Filomena who told her to call the police, that is late as for what we should expect.

Is it? Doesn't particularly bother me. I think it's compatible with innocence. For that matter, it's compatible with filomena being the real killer. Or not. Whatever.

If nencini convicts, I hope he makes a big deal about this dumb issue. And the poop. And the orgy. Weird perverts.

 

[Diocletus]

I put myself in Filomena's place; I am a trainee lawyer, I have rented a room in my flat to an Italian student whose English is poor and has been in the country for just over a month. She phones me up and says my room in the flat has been broken into. Do I ring the police myself or leave it to my flat mate whose room has not been broken into who speaks English poorly and does not know how the system works.

I think the more suspicious thing is Filomena failed to call herself. In Amanda's place I would be spending time rehearsing what to say, looking up words I would not know in Italian like break in robbery etc. Do I even know what number to ring? Is it 999? or 911? how do you contact the police in Italy?

She was probably too busy worrying about whether John kercher was going to sue her ass since she left her window unlocked and some dirtbag friend of Meredith's dirtbag boyfriend broke in and raped and killed his daughter.

 

[Diocletus]

Why did Knox and Sollecito wait these further 18 minutes? It doesn't make sense if they are innocent and actig straightforward.

I think they wanted to give Guede time to Complete his getaway to Germany.

Or maybe they thought that Meredith's body would decompose and turn into dust without leaving a trace. You know-- just like the bra clasp.

 

[Dan O.]

How long did Rudy wait before calling the police?

 

[RoseMontague]

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.
A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection; and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

Well, at the same time as Amanda was ending her call with Filomena, Raffaele had called the phone service center to recharge his phone. My bet is that Amanda wanted him to make that call, her Italian was not so good. Three minutes later 12:38 he gets a confirmation of the extra minutes but we don't know if he saw it immediately or not, in any case his dad called at two minutes later at 12:40 and then he called his sister at 12:51 and 112 at 12:52.

In the meantime Amanda had called her mom at 12:47. Sounds like a lot of calls were taking place in a short period of time and Amanda and Raffaele were getting the advice they needed. There is nothing nefarious about the gap.

 

[Skind]

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.

Who said they were waiting? She may have wanted to double check that anything was missing. Also, I believe both her and Sollecito went outside in this period, but that's by-the-by. There's more than plenty to think about in the interveening actually-less-than-18-minutes.

A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

But that's insane, as they risk Filomena caling the police anyway, plus the police would be more than made aware of the delay by Filomena.

Your scenario doesn't actually lead to the avoidance of attention, as was amply proven by the attention subsequently paid to it.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

Under what standard? What research have you seen the leads you to believe in any standard delay in phoning the police?

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection; and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

1. No, total lack of urgency is inconsistent with earlier behaviour - such as calling Filomena. We wouldn't be talking about the delay if your assertion was true.

2. The idea that they were 'forced' is inconsistent with the abscence of reliable evidence that they were 'caught' in anything when the postal police arrived.

3. It is throughly consistent - as people noted earlier, Filomena was not the boss of Knox. Thus there is no obligation to call the police, thus no failure. The problems a guilty scenario has are manifest - K+S were expediating the discovery by calling around (that would have been the point under a guilt scenario) yet you suddenly have them trying not to expediate it because they might something-something-mumble-something-or-other.

Face it: the attention would be on Knox and Sollecito as first attenders anyway so the "Needed Filomena there" excuse doesn't work.

Also, the proximal call to Filomena could have been conveyed to the police on scene acting as a buffer against suspicion that they weren't concerned.

A guilty K+S would not be suprised by the police at all - they'd simply assume Filomena had called them. That K+S apparently acted like they were expecting police is consistent with the idea that they had previously called them.

 

[RoseMontague]

How long did Rudy wait before calling the police?

LOL. Yep, that is the more important question. As stated earlier, Amanda alerted Filomena almost an hour before the cops arrived and she could have very easily called the cops then. Again, why would she alert Filomena if they were not ready for the body to be discovered?

The accusation means nothing, just like most of the stupid so -called evidence of guilt in this case.

 

[lane99]

Nothing unique about the Knox case

...this is in a class of its own. It's not even a case of the police railroading an innocent to get the case closed, because they couldn't find the person who really did it. There's nothing, other than a blind determination to convict the person they wrongly guessed to be guilty before the actual evidence was available..

You're mistaken. This Knox case is not remotely in a class of it's own in such respects.

The David Camm case and the Billy Wayne Cope case are just two examples of virtually the same dynamic. Innocent people who's persecution continued even after virtual proof surfaced that the crimes were committed by someone else.

David Camm is not a pretty young girl, but fortunately he had a strong and determined family supporting him. The jury finally got it right on his THIRD trial, and he is now a free man after serving many years in prison.

Billy Wayne cope is a poor, not particularly bright, hick that nobody cares about. So despite the fact he's obviously innocent, he'll probably spent the rest of his life in prison.
.
.

 

[Skind]

Well, at the same time as Amanda was ending her call with Filomena, Raffaele had called the phone service center to recharge his phone. My bet is that Amanda wanted him to make that call, her Italian was not so good. Three minutes later 12:38 he gets a confirmation of the extra minutes but we don't know if he saw it immediately or not, in any case his dad called at two minutes later at 12:40 and then he called his sister at 12:51 and 112 at 12:52.

In the meantime Amanda had called her mom at 12:47. Sounds like a lot of calls were taking place in a short period of time and Amanda and Raffaele were getting the advice they needed. There is nothing nefarious about the gap.

So, it actually looks like there wasn't a gap at all.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli, did Crini claim yesterday that it didn't matter if the defence theory about the slow clock was correct, because Battistelli arrived by foot ahead of Marsi? Or was his argument different from that?

Not really. It was a bit more articulate.
As for what I have understood, Crini made the points:

1. Battistelli looked at his watch after his arrival and it was 12.35; he also wrote that down in his report. Crini says: why should we throw away this datum? His watch might have been slow but the datum exists. (the point is logical).
2. Sollecito alerting the Carabinieri was anyway a bit late compared to Knox alerting Filomena.
3. a calculation based on the defence analysis would mean the parking clock was at best 7 minutes slow (not 10)
4. actually the defense calculation is based on uncertain or not meaningful terms, because the 13.29 conversation about street idication was with the Carabinieri HQ, not with a Carabinieri patrol, and does not indicate where the Carainieri cars were.
5. Battistelli and Marsi said they had stopped at the cottege a first time, Battistelli went out, walked around. But then they didn't park immediately; the car drove around the 'block', which means it drove down by the end of V. S. Antonio and then up from Via Del Melo, and needed another 10-15 minutes or so to do the ful circle again because of traffic. I don't know/didn't understand if the parking CCTV recorded the first or the second arrival of the car (this might be implicit from considering video analysis).

Was it anything like the one made below?

Don't seems so to me.

 

[moodstream]

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.
A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection; and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

Does it bother you that your arguments are completely arbitrary. If the call had been placed right away, it's a sign of guilt, because she is trying to look innocent, if she doesn't call right away, it's also a sign of guilt.

You know, two innocent peoples lives are in the balance. Or, just as true, the reputation of the Italian justice system is on the line. Except for a small bevy of haters, the rest of the world stand behind, and will continue to stand behind, the innocence of Knox and Sollecito. The only actual question being tried is how much self embarrassment are the Italians will to take on?

 

[Bill Williams]

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.

Her roommate is missing? How does Amanda know that? Filomena doesn't fear anything about Meredith until Filomena becomes aware that Meredith is separated from her phones!

A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

This is where you are simply inventing things to make Knox look guilty. Please note, it is not, "a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes"....

... if it were not for Knox, Filomena would not have learned of this at all.

But that is a nice try to try to make something look guilt-like.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

It's not "unexplained". Both Knox and Sollecito explain "the delay". As RoseM hinted at, it's not like they were sitting around idly... they were putting more money into Raffaele's phone, and calling everyone else in sight.

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection;

It turns out that the confusion surrounding the locked door was more a translation issue, combined with Filomena actually needing to make a more "urgent case", because no one else there was seeing this in "urgent" terms. But in guilter fashion, it is Amanda who is singled out for a lack of urgency, when the postal police also had this lack. Do you also suspect them of involvement?

and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

She was "forced" to call 112 by the arrival of the postals? I though we'd settled that they'd called 112 a full 8 minutes or so before their arrival?

And what is this business with it being merely "consistent"? That's as bad as Massei's probablies... which, BTW, he did not apply to the respective arrival times.

For Crini to bring this up 3 1/2 years after it had been debunked by the convicting judge in 2010 is, shall we say, desperate.

 

[Bill Williams]

1. Battistelli looked at his watch after his arrival and it was 12.35; he also wrote that down in his report. Crini says: why should we throw away this datum? His watch might have been slow but the datum exists. (the point is logical).

If this was the point Crini was making.... why not also keep the "datum" that the police misinterpreted what "See you later" meant? Why not keep the datum that Anna Donnino said she always acted as a mediator in her translations sessions, always inserting herself into what should have been a more mechanical translation process...

This point akes no sense, and makes Crini appear desperate, when he's supposed to be summarizing a case against AK and RS.

 

[RoseMontague]

So, it actually looks like there wasn't a gap at all.

Not when you consider they would have probably discussed the results of their calls with each other in the few minutes of mutual down time, what did dad, mom, sister say we should do next and what do you think type of thing. All of this taking place in a matter of minutes.

 

[Bill Williams]

How long did Rudy wait before calling the police?

LOL. Yep, that is the more important question. As stated earlier, Amanda alerted Filomena almost an hour before the cops arrived and she could have very easily called the cops then. Again, why would she alert Filomena if they were not ready for the body to be discovered?

The accusation means nothing, just like most of the stupid so -called evidence of guilt in this case.

LOL... how long did Mignini wait until someone got Knox and Sollecito a lawyer?

 

[Skind]

4. actually the defense calculation is based on uncertain or not meaningful terms, because the 13.29 conversation about street idication was with the Carabinieri HQ, not with a Carabinieri patrol, and does not indicate where the Carainieri cars were. .

Actually, from this we can be certain that the Caraninieri patrol was not there otherwise:

they would have informed HQ
and
they would have been at the cottage and thus standing with the people giving them directions.

You don't give directions on how to get to you to a person who is standing at your location.

To think otherwise is simply unreasonable.

 

[Strozzi]

I put myself in Filomena's place; I am a trainee lawyer, I have rented a room in my flat to an Italian student whose English is poor and has been in the country for just over a month. She phones me up and says my room in the flat has been broken into. Do I ring the police myself or leave it to my flat mate whose room has not been broken into who speaks English poorly and does not know how the system works.

I think the more suspicious thing is Filomena failed to call herself. In Amanda's place I would be spending time rehearsing what to say, looking up words I would not know in Italian like break in robbery etc. Do I even know what number to ring? Is it 999? or 911? how do you contact the police in Italy?

Filomena knows Amanda doesn't speak much Italian. Filomena just learned that a burglar has broken into her room. If she has drugs stashed there, does she really tell the dumb American to call the police immediately or does she think, Jusus, the cops might find my drugs, and tell the American. "I'm coming home. I'll call the police (meaning after I get there and deal with it first)"?