Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

As we wait for a verdict, I wonder if the judges are reading up on this case or are they too busy with other cases. In the end its Amanda and mainly Raffaele this time. Amanda is home safely put in Seattle.

All the Judges and independent experts from Hellmans last trial acquitted. To date they had the most intelligently focused DNA information presented.

This trial didnt add much, and it seems is relying on the Judges reading up on this case, maybe thousands of pages of reading.

But I dont see this, how does a Judge and jury prove they actually read up on the case to make a judgment?

Its just worthless banter, but Im curious exactly how many hours each spent learning about the case.

 

[JREF2010]

The fact that this prosecution resurrected it shows their fundamental dishonesty or complete cluelessness.

You could say this about the prosecution on any topic this trial.

 

[Dan O.]

By his "calling card," I meant his semen (that's what my dad used to call animal excrement he came across). I think the evidence points to the dried stain being Rudy's semen, in which case, he was aroused during, or during and before, the attack.

I have often made allegations that this stain if shown to be Rudy's semen would indicate that Rudy had actually raped Meredith as she was dying from choking on her own blood. I believe even incarcerated murders would find that level of depravity discussting to the point of risking an extension to their term to end Rudy's term on Earth.

But I also hinted at an out for Rudy to show that he was only a guarden variety pervert and not the sociopathic sex craised murder. I don't believe the Italian authorities will ever subject themselves to further humility by testing that stain so there is no point of holding out in hopes of a Rudy confession. Let's take an osmotic look at that stain:

The stain is on the pillow that is under Meredith. But part of the stain appears to have been steped on and transferred by Rudy's shoe. The bloody handprint and other footprints show that Rudy had grabbed this pillow and was steping on it after Meredith was stabbed. Therefore the semen stain must be on the pillow befor the pillow is placed under Meredith. While it is still possible for Rudy to have Raped the dying Meredith without the aid of the pillow and staged the scene afterwards, the other possibility is that the fresh semen stain was already on the pillow before Meredith was stabbed. The stain could even have been deposited shortly before Meredith came home.

I don't believe that the time of death as indicated by the digestion state allows time for Meredith to invite Rudy into the house, engage in foreplay culmination in oral sex, releasing Rudy's semen on the pillow, Rudy taking a dump and then comming out of the bathroom to kill her. So the order of events would have to be more like: Rudy releasing his semen on the pillow, Rudy taking the dump, Meredith comming home then Rudy comming out of the bathroom to kill her.

That last sequence necessitates that Rudy let himself into the cottage via Filomena's window and aroused himself while alone. If Rudy were to admit this and thus exonerate Amanda and Raffaele before the stain was tested to prove his authorship, I would accept it as the truth. But if Rudy maintains his current lie and only claims the breakin and self gratification to distance himself from suspiscion of necrophilia after the semen is proven to be his, I would say: screw you Rudy.

If Rudy performed oral sex, the lab should have been able to identify saliva on Meredith's genitalia.

But if the act was the other way around and not reciprocated, they wouldn't. Of course, I've already said the timeline doesn't allow for either.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks Charlie.

The highlighted sentence is for Grinder. It's WHY Massei didn't "debunk" the postal police's claim or explain in detail his reason for accepting Bonjiorno's timing correction. It would have been too embarrassing to the postal police to state in plain Italian that Perugia's finest confused a fast clock with a slow one.

Go find the police testimony on how they knew that the CCTV clock was fast.

 

[acbytesla]

As we wait for a verdict, I wonder if the judges are reading up on this case or are they too busy with other cases. In the end its Amanda and mainly Raffaele this time. Amanda is home safely put in Seattle.

All the Judges and independent experts from Hellmans last trial acquitted. To date they had the most intelligently focused DNA information presented.

This trial didnt add much, and it seems is relying on the Judges reading up on this case, maybe thousands of pages of reading.

But I dont see this, how does a Judge and jury prove they actually read up on the case to make a judgment?

Its just worthless banter, but Im curious exactly how many hours each spent learning about the case.

Those are all good questions and I sincerely doubt we'll ever be able to answer any of them. This process is truly a joke. It has nothing to do with a search for the truth. I feel sad for Amanda and Raffaele for having to go through this but I am equally sad of the average citizens of Italy that have this incredibly poor system of justice serving them.

 

[Grinder]

Now, I wonder what the motivation is behind the blind insistence from the PGP that there's going to be a conviction? When I went on PMF and suggested one possible outcome could be a sort of compromise decision, they accused me of "wishful thinking" amongst other less palatable things, as if this were an outcome I somehow wanted! It can't be self-protection in their case, since believing there's going to be a conviction isn't going to help at all if there isn't one.

They are preparing for righteous outrage. They will be accusing Florence of hating their beloved Mignini as evidenced by their warlock hunt of him in the past with the vindictive prosecution.

Some of the statements they're making now will look a bit silly in hindsight if they're wrong, which they must realize. Maybe unity/group solidarity?

What would those be? I doubt they will ever feel any remorse for their behaviors. It's not how they roll they will just thank people for stoppin on by....just sayin.

 

[snook1]

I see you guys here being cautionally optimistic, at least some of you. I, on the other hand, feel like there's literally nothing that can save Amanda and Raffaele now. Despite the fact that there's not one single element that could be suggesting they were involved in the murder, the trial was a farce. Honestly, I'm very worried for both of them, but Raffaele...

 

[Grinder]

Of course, all of this assumes that the jury in this case is really involved in a search for truth. I think that is an open issue. The supreme court decision has suggested a much deeper corruption in the Italian system than I would have suspected.

I'm sticking with a video that sums it all up with narrative and visuals. PP are very hard to do in a way that doesn't put people to sleep.

The prosecution was allowed to show their animation. It appears that the judge will only allow a very narrow range for discussion, which could be problematic.

I would cover:

The statements with the quote of the chief

The footprints showing that they don't match and came negative for blood.

The knife with the RIS, C&V, the defense experts analysis, keeping it simple showing the bad collection techniques and the miracle DNA discovery.

Curatolo showing the dark plaza and show his Hellmann testimony and mention his drug history

Point out the strangeness of all the witnesses including that none existed 6 months after the murder and had denied knowledge when asked directly after the murder.

Show the Ch. 5 window climb
​

I would show this video if possible in court or if not there on TV or the Internet. I can't believe that making a big public show wouldn't have an impact.

If nothing else I'd get the window climb easily available.

 

[acbytesla]

I see you guys here being cautionally optimistic, at least some of you. I, on the other hand, feel like there's literally nothing that can save Amanda and Raffaele now. Despite the fact that there's not one single element that could be suggesting they were involved in the murder, the trial was a farce. Honestly, I'm very worried for both of them, but Raffaele...

I can understand that snook, but do you think it is possible that this might just be a bit of paranoia? Trust me, I can't help but worry about it too, but I'm not sure we really have a reason other than the last ruling of the ISC to feel that way.

 

[Mary_H]

I have often made allegations that this stain if shown to be Rudy's semen would indicate that Rudy had actually raped Meredith as she was dying from choking on her own blood. I believe even incarcerated murders would find that level of depravity discussting to the point of risking an extension to their term to end Rudy's term on Earth.

But I also hinted at an out for Rudy to show that he was only a guarden variety pervert and not the sociopathic sex craised murder. I don't believe the Italian authorities will ever subject themselves to further humility by testing that stain so there is no point of holding out in hopes of a Rudy confession. Let's take an osmotic look at that stain:

The stain is on the pillow that is under Meredith. But part of the stain appears to have been steped on and transferred by Rudy's shoe. The bloody handprint and other footprints show that Rudy had grabbed this pillow and was steping on it after Meredith was stabbed. Therefore the semen stain must be on the pillow befor the pillow is placed under Meredith. While it is still possible for Rudy to have Raped the dying Meredith without the aid of the pillow and staged the scene afterwards, the other possibility is that the fresh semen stain was already on the pillow before Meredith was stabbed. The stain could even have been deposited shortly before Meredith came home.

I don't believe that the time of death as indicated by the digestion state allows time for Meredith to invite Rudy into the house, engage in foreplay culmination in oral sex, releasing Rudy's semen on the pillow, Rudy taking a dump and then comming out of the bathroom to kill her. So the order of events would have to be more like: Rudy releasing his semen on the pillow, Rudy taking the dump, Meredith comming home then Rudy comming out of the bathroom to kill her.

That last sequence necessitates that Rudy let himself into the cottage via Filomena's window and aroused himself while alone. If Rudy were to admit this and thus exonerate Amanda and Raffaele before the stain was tested to prove his authorship, I would accept it as the truth. But if Rudy maintains his current lie and only claims the breakin and self gratification to distance himself from suspiscion of necrophilia after the semen is proven to be his, I would say: screw you Rudy.

But if the act was the other way around and not reciprocated, they wouldn't. Of course, I've already said the timeline doesn't allow for either.

I shouldn't have used the term oral sex; I meant oral assault. There were no mutual sexual relations between them at any time, IMO.

My guess, still working with the possibility that Meredith allowed Rudy to come in briefly, is that Rudy decided to make himself at home. He approached Meredith for sex and she said no. He didn't take no for an answer and overpowered her with strength and the knife. Once she was on the ground and exposed, he assaulted her either orally or digitally to prepare for intercourse, but could not last any longer than that. Once he settled down he realized he had gone much farther than he intended to and tried to clean things up a bit, then hightailed it out of there. This all could have taken place in ten to fifteen minutes.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm sticking with a video that sums it all up with narrative and visuals. PP are very hard to do in a way that doesn't put people to sleep.

The prosecution was allowed to show their animation. It appears that the judge will only allow a very narrow range for discussion, which could be problematic.

I would cover:

The statements with the quote of the chief

The footprints showing that they don't match and came negative for blood.

The knife with the RIS, C&V, the defense experts analysis, keeping it simple showing the bad collection techniques and the miracle DNA discovery.

Curatolo showing the dark plaza and show his Hellmann testimony and mention his drug history

Point out the strangeness of all the witnesses including that none existed 6 months after the murder and had denied knowledge when asked directly after the murder.

Show the Ch. 5 window climb
​

I would show this video if possible in court or if not there on TV or the Internet. I can't believe that making a big public show wouldn't have an impact.

If nothing else I'd get the window climb easily available.

Nothing beats well done visuals.

I've done hundreds of Powerpoint presentations over the years and I do understand that many of them can be boring. But a lot of that depends on the subject matter and the skill of the presenter. A long 3 hour Powerpoint Presentation on VPN tunneling or cloud storage could put anyone to sleep. But so could any speaker.

You can "embed" videos into Powerpoint presentations. I think a combination of the two would work best. For example, The time line, and the changing prosecution theories might best demonstrated with a hypertext Powerpoint slide. and nothing demonstrates the climb up the wall better than the Channel 5 documentary. I'd embed the short video clips into my Powerpoint, making sure I'd jump around a lot but always with a cohesive underlying theme.

Overall, I think a great lawyer needs to take his advice from Gerry Spence and NOT be boring. So, you are more likely to get your client off by being both entertaining and educational.

 

[Rolfe]

The whole thing is beyond surreal. I'm familiar with quite a number of miscarriage of justice cases, but this is in a class of its own. It's not even a case of the police railroading an innocent to get the case closed, because they couldn't find the person who really did it. There's nothing, other than a blind determination to convict the person they wrongly guessed to be guilty before the actual evidence was available.

I'm not massively invested in it, but I can't help feeling sorry for Amanda and Raffaele. Four years in jail is no joke, especially for people in their twenties which is when you should be starting out in life. Now - I don't really know how the extradition thing would play out for Amanda, but Raffaele would seem to be in real trouble.

I also have a bad feeling about it. The ISC seem to have decided they want a conviction for some reason, presumably political, and I don't have any confidence that this court is going to defy that. Presumably they won't immediately arrest Raffaele but will wait for the ISC to confirm a conviction. However, if this court convicts, the ISC is going to rubber-stamp it for sure.

Is there anywhere on earth Raffaele could conceivably go to be safe from extradition, in the 21st century? Ronnie Biggs went to Brazil I believe. How dreadful to have your own native land treat you like that, so you have to consider permanent exile in a foreign culture.

Rolfe.

 

[acbytesla]

The whole thing is beyond surreal. I'm familiar with quite a number of miscarriage of justice cases, but this is in a class of its own. It's not even a case of the police railroading an innocent to get the case closed, because they couldn't find the person who really did it. There's nothing, other than a blind determination to convict the person they wrongly guessed to be guilty before the actual evidence was available.

I'm not massively invested in it, but I can't help feeling sorry for Amanda and Raffaele. Four years in jail is no joke, especially for people in their twenties which is when you should be starting out in life. Now - I don't really know how the extradition thing would play out for Amanda, but Raffaele would seem to be in real trouble.

I also have a bad feeling about it. The ISC seem to have decided they want a conviction for some reason, presumably political, and I don't have any confidence that this court is going to defy that. Presumably they won't immediately arrest Raffaele but will wait for the ISC to confirm a conviction. However, if this court convicts, the ISC is going to rubber-stamp it for sure.

Is there anywhere on earth Raffaele could conceivably go to be safe from extradition, in the 21st century? Ronnie Biggs went to Brazil I believe. How dreadful to have your own native land treat you like that, so you have to consider permanent exile in a foreign culture.

Rolfe.

I don't blame your worry, I do think that the ISC will rubber stamp any decision at the point, innocent or guilty. The consequences of not doing so wouldn't look good.

I have to think a guilty verdict would certainly ignite a firestorm in the US. Don't kid yourself, while the American public is undoubtedly bored with this almost 7 year old story, they would almost certainly get interested again in a hurry with a guilty verdict. I'm not sure that the Florence court is considering that, but I'd bet neither country's leaders actually wants to guilty verdict.

This would be a political nightmare over something most of them could care less about.

Are they really going to imprison Raffaele with Amanda free in the US and Rudy due for release? I'd imagine that there would be more than a few editorials written about the injustice of this in Italy not to mention the US. T

My thoughts are with Raffaele in the coming days. I hope this nightmare will be over soon for especially him and Amanda.

 

[Strozzi]

Unbelievable. They are utterly without any shred of integrity.

It reminds me of a thief who was caught. Police searched him and found stolen items in his pants' pocket. The thief had an alibi - he told the cops "these aren't my pants".

Does the parking garage video show two sets of blue pant-legs walking towards the cottage in the minutes after the Postal Police car showed up?

 

[Strozzi]

I don't blame your worry, I do think that the ISC will rubber stamp any decision at the point, innocent or guilty. The consequences of not doing so wouldn't look good.

I have to think a guilty verdict would certainly ignite a firestorm in the US. Don't kid yourself, while the American public is undoubtedly bored with this almost 7 year old story, they would almost certainly get interested again in a hurry with a guilty verdict. I'm not sure that the Florence court is considering that, but I'd bet neither country's leaders actually wants to guilty verdict.

This would be a political nightmare over something most of them could care less about.

Are they really going to imprison Raffaele with Amanda free in the US and Rudy due for release? I'd imagine that there would be more than a few editorials written about the injustice of this in Italy not to mention the US. T

My thoughts are with Raffaele in the coming days. I hope this nightmare will be over soon for especially him and Amanda.

The Italian justice system needs to be shown to the world for what it is. This whole case with the trials should be turned into a blockbuster movie from the innocent defendants' perspective. I hope Spielburg is available. Show the gripping night interrogations, followed by the police officers and Anna Donino lying in court saying that no shouting occurred, no threats were made, she wasn't hit. And then comes the arrival of Mignini, the great notary. That is, seriously, one factor that will build momentum for the Italian elites to come to grips with reform of their dark trial system.

 

[RoseMontague]

Go find the police testimony on how they knew that the CCTV clock was fast.

IIRC, he said it was 10 minutes off due to daylight savings time (LOL). Now that we have most of the testimonies it would be nice to look it up. Do you recall the name of the police officer?

 

[Strozzi]

Is there anywhere on earth Raffaele could conceivably go to be safe from extradition, in the 21st century? Ronnie Biggs went to Brazil I believe. How dreadful to have your own native land treat you like that, so you have to consider permanent exile in a foreign culture.

Women throughout history have been persecuted as if they were witches -sometimes it just takes on a more modern sheen. People throughout history have had to leave (flee) their country due to injustice. As hard as it is, Raffaele may need to begin life anew abroad.

 

[codyjuneau]

I'm sticking with a video that sums it all up with narrative and visuals. PP are very hard to do in a way that doesn't put people to sleep.

The prosecution was allowed to show their animation. It appears that the judge will only allow a very narrow range for discussion, which could be problematic.

I would cover:

The statements with the quote of the chief

The footprints showing that they don't match and came negative for blood.

The knife with the RIS, C&V, the defense experts analysis, keeping it simple showing the bad collection techniques and the miracle DNA discovery.

Curatolo showing the dark plaza and show his Hellmann testimony and mention his drug history

Point out the strangeness of all the witnesses including that none existed 6 months after the murder and had denied knowledge when asked directly after the murder.

Show the Ch. 5 window climb
​

I would show this video if possible in court or if not there on TV or the Internet. I can't believe that making a big public show wouldn't have an impact.

If nothing else I'd get the window climb easily available.

.
Helping the judge and jurors understand the Time of Death (TOD) argument, and its significance, is also critical, IMO.
.

 

[acbytesla]

The Italian justice system needs to be shown to the world for what it is. This whole case with the trials should be turned into a blockbuster movie from the innocent defendants' perspective. I hope Spielburg is available. Show the gripping night interrogations, followed by the police officers and Anna Donino lying in court saying that no shouting occurred, no threats were made, she wasn't hit. And then comes the arrival of Mignini, the great notary. That is, seriously, one factor that will build momentum for the Italian elites to come to grips with reform of their dark trial system.

It certainly has the potential for a gripping story. But given just how long this farce has gone on makes it a challenge for a two hour movie. How do you stretch all the ups and downs and twists and turns to just two hours. Not sure a movie would be the right approach. I like the idea of a multi year miniseries with the first two to four episodes the lead up to the murder. Then a few episodes covering the time between the time of the murder to the Amanda's and Raffaele's arrest, then a couple of episodes just on Rudy, then back to Amanda and Raffaele in prison awaiting the first trial, then a few episodes covering the trial, then the conviction, then back at prison, then the retrial, then the release and then.....the story continues.

 

[codyjuneau]

The whole thing is beyond surreal. I'm familiar with quite a number of miscarriage of justice cases, but this is in a class of its own. It's not even a case of the police railroading an innocent to get the case closed, because they couldn't find the person who really did it. There's nothing, other than a blind determination to convict the person they wrongly guessed to be guilty before the actual evidence was available.

I'm not massively invested in it, but I can't help feeling sorry for Amanda and Raffaele. Four years in jail is no joke, especially for people in their twenties which is when you should be starting out in life. Now - I don't really know how the extradition thing would play out for Amanda, but Raffaele would seem to be in real trouble.

I also have a bad feeling about it. The ISC seem to have decided they want a conviction for some reason, presumably political, and I don't have any confidence that this court is going to defy that. Presumably they won't immediately arrest Raffaele but will wait for the ISC to confirm a conviction. However, if this court convicts, the ISC is going to rubber-stamp it for sure.

Is there anywhere on earth Raffaele could conceivably go to be safe from extradition, in the 21st century? Ronnie Biggs went to Brazil I believe. How dreadful to have your own native land treat you like that, so you have to consider permanent exile in a foreign culture.

Rolfe.

.
It is an eye opener for me.

I am shocked that people supposedly on the side of justice will, to paraphrase Massei, 'make a choice for evil', rather than admit they made a mistake.
.