Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

.
It occurs to me that it might also be useful to help the judge and jurors understand why the multiple attacker theory went unchallenged in Rudy's fast track trial. Even the Supreme Court did not seem to understand this.
.

Good one and a good way to do it. They should try to prove a single person attack but rather show for the ISC why it made it through the infallible court system.

 

[Grinder]

I believe you are correct. Still, this settles the matter. That Crini tries to slip it in under the wire (that Raffaele called 112 AFTER the postals arrival), is part and parcel of what has been wrong with this whole case....

Bill, bill, bill

Just for the record Mach's times were also wrong - I gave you the correct ones.

 

[Skind]

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

Good question - why would a guilty Knox wait for another 18 minutes?

She has no idea if Filomena is going to call the police herself or not, or call someone local to pop around. By alerting Filomena, a guilty Knox now has impetus to call the police to make it all fit in with her cover story. Screw the MJ, if the police find that and arrest Filomena, so much the better.

 

[Dan O.]

IIRC, he said it was 10 minutes off due to daylight savings time (LOL). Now that we have most of the testimonies it would be nice to look it up. Do you recall the name of the police officer?

You are remembering the correct testimony but you haven't hit the target yet. I did look it up and posted the relevant section here and have made numerous comments about it. That's why I say it's time for someone else to look it up. It's so unreal that I guess nobody believes me.


Eta: here is my original post in the previous thread. It could use a proper translation.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, bill, bill

Just for the record Mach's times were also wrong - I gave you the correct ones.

Far be if for me to take Machiavelli's side, but IIRC his times correspond to the times Massei accepts.

I was going to add, "as factual," but that phrase tends to make folks here go squirrelly.

 

[Grinder]

Far be if for me to take Machiavelli's side, but IIRC his times correspond to the times Massei accepts.

I was going to add, "as factual," but that phrase tends to make folks here go squirrelly.

Nope. Mach is going to point to this and there goes credibility. My times match Massei. God is in the details.

From Massei

12:50:34 outgoing call directed at mobile phone 347-1323774 belonging to Vanessa Sollecito, sister of the defendant; duration 39 seconds. Connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell
320
− 12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito called ‚112‛ to inform the Carabinieri of the presumed theft in Romanelli’s room (duration 169 seconds; connection to Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1 cell, which covers Via della Pergola 7)
− 12:54: a second call by Raffaele to ‚112‛ (57 sec.; connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell)

 

[Strozzi]

Has what hapened in this case put you off visiting Italy. Do you view Italy as a corrupt and backward country which should be avoided.

What has happened in this case has greatly influenced by view of Italy. I have lived abroad (outside of the U.S) for 15 years and have witnessed/experienced corrupt governments and corrupt and exploitive societies. I did not expect Italian law enforcement or justice to function in such a prejudicial manner.

I have lost my desire to visit Italy (in spite of an ancestral connection).

Yesterday I read Anna Donnino's court testimony about the interrogation of Knox. i do not find Donnino's testimony credible. She arrived after the interrogation was well underway and was not there for the initial abuses, but I do not believe her testimony. She viewed her role not just to translate but to also influence the witness' memory & help steer her testimony to what the police sought. Donnino was an extension of the interrogators and I believe she is lying to protect the primary interrogators - and to conceal her full contribution.

 

[Bill Williams]

Nope. Mach is going to point to this and there goes credibility. My times match Massei. God is in the details.

From Massei

12:50:34 outgoing call directed at mobile phone 347-1323774 belonging to Vanessa Sollecito, sister of the defendant; duration 39 seconds. Connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell
320
− 12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito called ‚112‛ to inform the Carabinieri of the presumed theft in Romanelli’s room (duration 169 seconds; connection to Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1 cell, which covers Via della Pergola 7)
− 12:54: a second call by Raffaele to ‚112‛ (57 sec.; connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell)

Isn't this what Mach said? So he's 20 seconds too long?

 

[acbytesla]

Bill, bill, bill

Just for the record Mach's times were also wrong - I gave you the correct ones.

Good job Grinder. But I'll pose the following question, are you sure that Massei is correct? I noted a couple of errors of fact in in his motivation.

 

[Grinder]

Isn't this what Mach said? So he's 20 seconds too long?

This isn't good Bill. He missed an entire call. He had the sister call a minute late and missed the first call to the police.

Good job Grinder. But I'll pose the following question, are you sure that Massei is correct? I noted a couple of errors of fact in in his motivation.

Bill had just said Massei matched Mach's. These are the same times as the pro guilt sites and the pro innocence people as well as Massei.

Maybe they called at 1:15 pm? Would you like that time better.

How would you know an error of fact in Massei?

The times are to the second which means they came from phone records. Would you like to bet on who is getting the times correctly? I can meet you in the tunnel as nothing else is going on there

 

[Strozzi]

Originally Posted by codyjuneau
.
It occurs to me that it might also be useful to help the judge and jurors understand why the multiple attacker theory went unchallenged in Rudy's fast track trial. Even the Supreme Court did not seem to understand this.

Good one and a good way to do it. They should try to prove a single person attack but rather show for the ISC why it made it through the infallible court system.

Rudy was damn lucky when he was on the run in Germany and the police in Perugia arrested the wrong people for the crime. The arrests of the wrong people enabled Rudy to try to escape justice by presenting himself as an innocent bystander or, if implicated by forensics, to be seen as a minor participant. His Skype call was his first attempt to do so.

Mignini wanted foremost to get Amanda. That was the main show. It allowed Rudy to opt for a separate, fast-track trial where Mignini prosecuted him as a more minor participant. Mignini did not elevate him to his true role as sole murderer. Nobody was there to contest that Rudy, alone, killed Meredith.

I think the above is the way the defense should lead into it.

 

[acbytesla]

This isn't good Bill. He missed an entire call. He had the sister call a minute late and missed the first call to the police.


Bill had just said Massei matched Mach's. These are the same times as the pro guilt sites and the pro innocence people as well as Massei.

Maybe they called at 1:15 pm? Would you like that time better.

How would you know an error of fact in Massei?

The times are to the second which means they came from phone records. Would you like to bet on who is getting the times correctly? I can meet you in the tunnel as nothing else is going on there

I'm not doubting you at all. I'm just pointing out that Massei's motivation hasn't always been the most accurate document. You just don't trust a compliment do you??

 

[Welshman]

In view of the fact what Amanda and Raffaele did or did not do prior to the discovery of the body has been used to indicate Amanda and Raffaele were guilty, there are questions which need to be asked :-

1) An obvious question is if Amanda and Raffaele had killed Meredith, why did they return to the cottage the next morning and phone the police? Let assume Amanda and Raffaele had killed Meredith. They are going to be in a state of extreme panic. They have killed a roomate. They will be worried they will have left forensic traces in the room and the police will take their DNA, fingerprints. They will be worried they will have been caught on CCTV or witnesses will have seen them. Surely the last thing Amanda and Raffaele will want to do considering their circumstances is call the police to report a murder they have committed. Amanda and Raffaele have supposedly committed murder as a couple. Is it credible that a couple, who despite having only been dating six days have committed a brutal murder, would agree to return to the cottage and call the police? Returning to the cottage and calling the police runs the following risks :-

* What if Amanda and Raffaele slip up and say or do the wrong things which indicates they have killed Meredith and are not innocent people who have stumbled on a crime scene. Would Amanda and Raffaele not worry about this?

* Amanda and Raffaele are going to be in a tense and agitated state after committing a brutal murder. Would Amanda and Raffaele not worry they would appear tense and nervous to the police and would not be able to hide this?

* The people who report the crime will receive a lot of attention from the police and will be subject to intense questioning. Would Amanda and Raffaele desire this after committing a murder?

2) The police and prosecution told lies and some of these lies concerned what happened prior to the discovery of the body :-

* The police released a photo of what appeared to be a bloody bathroom and the photo implied Amanda had showered in a very bloody bathroom. The police did not mention the photo had been sprayed with a chemical which reacts with protein in the blood and bathroom was not how it would appear to the naked eye.
* Prosecutor Commodi lied in court saying Amanda had called her mother at 12.00 pm before anything had happened to cause concern when phone records show the call was made at 12.47 pm.
* The postal police lied about when they arrived to give the impression Raffaele had called the police after the postal police arrived.

If the behaviour of Amanda and Raffaele was so suspicious and the prosecution had a slam dunk case based on the actions of Amanda and Raffaele prior to the discovery of the body, why did the prosecution have to resort to lying to make their actions appear suspicious?

3) It has been alleged Amand and Raffaele were slow in raising the alarm. If Amanda and Raffaele had killed Meredith, would Amanda and Raffaele have been slow in raising the alarm knowing this could be seen as suspicious?

4) If the behaviour of Amanda and Raffaele were so suspicious and the police had a built up a strong case for guilt according to the actions of Amanda and Raffaele prior to the discovery of the body, why is that during the interrogations the police never questioned Amanda and Raffaele on their actions prior to the discovery of the body? Why did the police not ask questions such as why were you slow in raising the alarm? If by the time of the interrogations the police had built up a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele due to their behaviour, why did the police have to resort to not taping the interrogations, denying access to lawyers and not formally telling Amanda and Raffaele they were suspects?

5) If the actions of Amanda and Raffaele prior to the discovery were wrong and indicated they were guilty, what exactly should have Amanda and Raffaele done? What in your view should an innocent Amanda and Raffaele have done?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

testimony about the time error in the clock

IIRC, he said it was 10 minutes off due to daylight savings time (LOL). Now that we have most of the testimonies it would be nice to look it up. Do you recall the name of the police officer?

IIRC the policemen who was questioned mumbled about daylight savings time and then said that he had heard from another policeman that there was a 10 minute difference. I don't have a citation handy, however.
ETA
Dan O.'s comment above already covers this.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

IIRC the policemen who was questioned mumbled about daylight savings time and then said that he had heard from another policeman that there was a 10 minute difference. I don't have a citation handy, however.
ETA
Dan O.'s comment above already covers this.

Yes, he tried to suggest that the clock was 10 minutes fast because of daylight savings time, but he was being questioned by someone with an IQ over 70 so that didn't fly.

The real question now is, did the Postal Police say in their original testimony that they presented themselves at the cottage at substantially different times, i.e., several minutes apart?

 

[Bill Williams]

This isn't good Bill. He missed an entire call. He had the sister call a minute late and missed the first call to the police.



Bill had just said Massei matched Mach's. These are the same times as the pro guilt sites and the pro innocence people as well as Massei.

Maybe they called at 1:15 pm? Would you like that time better.

How would you know an error of fact in Massei?

The times are to the second which means they came from phone records. Would you like to bet on who is getting the times correctly? I can meet you in the tunnel as nothing else is going on there

Ok... this is what I know... at least this is what I read in Massei's report.... remember, the issue is; did Raffaele call the 112 before or after the arrival of the postal police? On this issue, what did Massei find (as factual)?

Also present were an inspector and an officer from the Postal Police of Perugia: Michele Battistelli and Fabio Marzi, who arrived a little before 1:00 pm.

These then are the preceding facts and the reason for the presence at the house at 7 Via della Pergola shortly before 1:00 pm on November 2, 2009 of the Postal Police team consisting of Inspector Michele Battistelli and Assistant Fabio Marzi.

As stated by Battistelli (page 80, hearing of February 6, 2009) they had some difficulty finding the house, as they had gone along Viale S. Antonio, which is alongside and in part hides the house. Twice, Battistelli had had to get out of the car and walk along before finding the house, where he arrived with Assistant Marzi at a little after 12:30 pm, or so it seemed to the two policemen.

(Italics above added for emphasis, not in the original.)

The phone calls made to the Carabinieri just mentioned were at 12:51 pm and 12:54 pm on November 2, 2007 by Raffaele Sollecito

Please note - here Massei does not give the timing of the call to the second....

So, Machiavelli is wrong, as am I, but if Massei had rounded UP, then our respective reputations (such as they are) are not so much in tatters....

 

[Welshman]

Originally by codyjuneau
.
It occurs to me that it might also be useful to help the judge and jurors understand why the multiple attacker theory went unchallenged in Rudy's fast track trial. Even the Supreme Court did not seem to understand this.



Rudy was damn lucky when he was on the run in Germany and the police in Perugia arrested the wrong people for the crime. The arrests of the wrong people enabled Rudy to try to escape justice by presenting himself as an innocent bystander or, if implicated by forensics, to be seen as a minor participant. His Skype call was his first attempt to do so.

Mignini wanted foremost to get Amanda. That was the main show. It allowed Rudy to opt for a separate, fast-track trial where Mignini prosecuted him as a more minor participant. Mignini did not elevate him to his true role as sole murderer. Nobody was there to contest that Rudy, alone, killed Meredith.

I think the above is the way the defense should lead into it.

Guede brutally sexually assaulted a young woman as she lay dying and then went dancing as if nothing had happened. Despite this there is no anger directed at Guede on the tjmk/pmf hate sites. In some cases the haters have defended this low life. Guede is barely mentioned in the media. He is due for early release and there is no complaint about this. John Kercher complains Meredith has been forgotten but in reality it is Guede who has been forgotten. The hate is directed at people who had nothing to do with Meredith murder. I bet Guede can not believe his luck.

 

[Machiavelli]

Good question - why would a guilty Knox wait for another 18 minutes?

She has no idea if Filomena is going to call the police herself or not, or call someone local to pop around. By alerting Filomena, a guilty Knox now has impetus to call the police to make it all fit in with her cover story. Screw the MJ, if the police find that and arrest Filomena, so much the better.

And why would innocents Knox and Sollecito wait?
And innocent Knox may have an impetus to call the police immediately, since that is her own apartment and moreover her roommate is missing, doesn't answer.
A guily Knox may have a lot of other things to do. First of all, a guilty Knox may learn that Filomena will be there only in about 30 minutes and so decide to wait for Filomena before taking initiatives, so to be sure that Filomena is the one who discovers the body and avoid having police attention on Knox + Sollecito alone. But changes idea and decides she better not wait ay longer when the postal police arrives.

The fact is: a 12.52 call to 112 is anyway a bit late. There is an unexplained delay.

This delay is 1. something we may label under the topic total lack of urgency, consistent also with other details of Knox's behaviour that you find out elsewhere (locked door etc.) which contradict her recollection; and 2. also consistent with the idea that she called the 112 only when she was 'forced' to by the arrival of the postals, 3. it is anyway not consistent with her early phone conversation with Filomena, this problem doesn't go away even if you assume Knox is innocent.

 

[RoseMontague]

The question I have is that even if you assume the whole called the cops after police arrive is true then why did Amanda alert Filomena that something was wrong at least 30-40 minutes earlier? Filomena could have called the cops herself. Why did she make that call if she was not ready for the cops to show up?

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

You first.

 

[Machiavelli]

Bill had just said Massei matched Mach's. (...)

You are correct. But in fact I mistook 26 seconds about the call to Vanessa (by memory), and I did not remember the exact timing of the first call to the Carabinieri, but place all calls to Carabinieri within a 120 seconds error.

So, the meaning of my post was to show there was no 12.42 call to the Carabinieri, as claimed by Bill.

In fact the first call to the Carabinieri is 16-18 minutes late compared to the alarming call to Filomena who told her to call the police, that is late as for what we should expect.