Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

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Helping the judge and jurors understand the Time of Death (TOD) argument, and its significance, is also critical, IMO.
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Definitely an oversight by me. To which a quick shot of three smoking computers could be added.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm waiting for the 1,000 word essay purporting to "prove" something along these lines.

But it's not what the prosecution said at the original trial. They showed the picture of the car and said the clock was 10 minutes fast. They didn't try to say they arrived at different times, or that one of them got out of the car before the photo was taken, because they had not yet seen Bongiorno's analysis.

Actually this is what Battistelli said (before the defence analysis):

Giuliano Mignini: E ci ha messo più di mezzora da Via Mario Angeloni...

Michele Battistelli: Lì abbiamo avuto difficoltà nel trovare la casa, sinceramente abbiamo avuto difficoltà perché lì a parte che era un posto, che sta lì proprio su quell ' incrocio quindi addirittura abbiamo fermato la macchina e sono sceso io a piedi a guardare dove stava, anche perché lì non è che con la macchina ti muovi agevolmente, quindi sono sceso a piedi, ho fatto il giro a piedi ed alla fine, dopo aver fatto due giri dell'isolato, abbiamo fatto un primo giro a vuoto poi siamo tornati indietro e l'abbiamo trovata la casa.

 

[Rolfe]

It is an eye opener for me.

I am shocked that people supposedly on the side of justice will, to paraphrase Massei, 'make a choice for evil', rather than admit they made a mistake.

Confirmation bias is a bitch, mind you.

Rolfe.

 

[Bill Williams]

Actually this is what Battistelli said (before the defence analysis):

Giuliano Mignini: And it took more than half an hour from Via Mario Angeloni ...

Michele Battistelli: There we had difficulty in finding the house, I honestly had trouble because there was a part of that place, which is right there on that 'crossing even then we stopped the car and went down to watch where I was walking, also because there is not that you move smoothly with the car, so I went down to the feet, I did the walking tour and at the end, after two rounds of the block, we made a first round vacuum then we went back and we found the house.

The good news about this is that there once was a time when the prosecution in this case actually did try to prosecute this on the facts. Judge Massei put an end to this particular factoid, making it all the more incredible that Crini tries to slip it in at the last minute, dealing it from the bottom of the deck.

The fact of the matter is that this is as Judge Massei wrote - the postal police arrived just before 1 pm. The 112 calls were at 12:42 and at 12:52.

The larger guilter-lie has always been that Raffaele and Amanda were "caught in the act" by the postals that morning, and the factoid became that they'd called 112 as an attempt at "recovery", to make it only seem that they were at the house to solve the mystery of the mess.

The truth is quite simple - from Raffaele's calls to his sister (who then was carabinieri herself) to Amanda's calls to Filomena.... the two of them had been raising the alarm for about an hour BEFORE the postals arrived.

Yet another guilter factoid bites the dust. One can only hope that the Nencini court delivers its verdict on the facts, rather than factoids taken out of context - like this issue of the 112 calls has always been used by guilters.

 

[Grinder]

The good news about this is that there once was a time when the prosecution in this case actually did try to prosecute this on the facts. Judge Massei put an end to this particular factoid, making it all the more incredible that Crini tries to slip it in at the last minute, dealing it from the bottom of the deck.

The fact of the matter is that this is as Judge Massei wrote - the postal police arrived just before 1 pm. The 112 calls were at 12:42 and at 12:52.

Yet another guilter factoid bites the dust. One can only hope that the Nencini court delivers its verdict on the facts, rather than factoids taken out of context - like this issue of the 112 calls has always been used by guilters.

Bill the first call was at 12:52 not 12:42. At least get that fact correct. Massei didn't debunk or put the assertion to rest. Do you think that the defense will use a quote from Masssei where he debunks the timings? I doubt it because they are just asides of what the defense had claimed

The first one at 12:51:40 pm lasted 169 seconds and the second one at 12:54 pm 57 seconds

12.50 p.m. Raffaele calls his sister in the carabiniere, a different branch of the Italian police.

*12:51 p.m.. Raffaele calls the carabiniere. They ask him to call back.

In his diary, he says: “At the end I think that the only thing to do was break down Meredith’s door. We try, but we cannot, then we call my sister and she tells me to call 112. I call them and leave the name of Amanda and the details and try to explain briefly the situation. They say (they will call back?). We pause to wait outside and suddenly you have two men and they tell us they are the postal police who are trying to find Filomena, as they had found two mobile phones and one of the numbers belongs to Filomena. Amanda thinks the phones are Meredith’s and I ask the police to break the door.
*12:54. Raffaele calls the carabiniere again.

The first quote from the PGP wiki and the second from Dempsey.

I doubt that Raf called the police after the PP arrived and think the best argument is that he would have only been a few feet away from the other people and he spoke with Amanda during the call.

I would say that just before 1 pm doesn't eliminate the calls being made after arrival.

 

[billyryan]

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It is an eye opener for me.

I am shocked that people supposedly on the side of justice will, to paraphrase Massei, 'make a choice for evil', rather than admit they made a mistake.
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I wonder have the judges and the Italian criminal justice system,given any thought to what the backlash for this "choice of evil"will be

 

[acbytesla]

Bill the first call was at 12:52 not 12:42. At least get that fact correct. Massei didn't debunk or put the assertion to rest. Do you think that the defense will use a quote from Masssei where he debunks the timings? I doubt it because they are just asides of what the defense had claimed

The first one at 12:51:40 pm lasted 169 seconds and the second one at 12:54 pm 57 seconds

12.50 p.m. Raffaele calls his sister in the carabiniere, a different branch of the Italian police.

*12:51 p.m.. Raffaele calls the carabiniere. They ask him to call back.

In his diary, he says: “At the end I think that the only thing to do was break down Meredith’s door. We try, but we cannot, then we call my sister and she tells me to call 112. I call them and leave the name of Amanda and the details and try to explain briefly the situation. They say (they will call back?). We pause to wait outside and suddenly you have two men and they tell us they are the postal police who are trying to find Filomena, as they had found two mobile phones and one of the numbers belongs to Filomena. Amanda thinks the phones are Meredith’s and I ask the police to break the door.
*12:54. Raffaele calls the carabiniere again.

The first quote from the PGP wiki and the second from Dempsey.

I doubt that Raf called the police after the PP arrived and think the best argument is that he would have only been a few feet away from the other people and he spoke with Amanda during the call.

I would say that just before 1 pm doesn't eliminate the calls being made after arrival.

Let's be honest, the timing of the phone calls doesn't prove a damn thing. The Prosecution are trying to say that the calls were made later as Amanda and Raffaele trying to fake their concern. But these were only one of a few calls made that morning by Amanda and Raffaele signaling the alarm.

It's worthless and considering that both Massei and Hellman disregarded this, you would expect Nencini to do so as well.

 

[Welshman]

Has what hapened in this case put you off visiting Italy. Do you view Italy as a corrupt and backward country which should be avoided.

 

[Machiavelli]

The fact of the matter is that this is as Judge Massei wrote - the postal police arrived just before 1 pm. The 112 calls were at 12:42 and at 12:52.
(...)

My information (recalling by memory) was Sollecito called her sister at 12.51 and Carabinieri at 12.54 (not sure about the 12.51 call but anyway, I don't know about a 12.42 phone call to 112).

Filomena told Amanda to call the police in the 12.34/38 phone conversation.

 

[codyjuneau]

Definitely an oversight by me. To which a quick shot of three smoking computers could be added.

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It occurs to me that it might also be useful to help the judge and jurors understand why the multiple attacker theory went unchallenged in Rudy's fast track trial. Even the Supreme Court did not seem to understand this.
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[Diocletus]

Filomena told Amanda to call the police in the 12.34/38 phone conversation.

Filomena should have locked her damn window. What a dumbass.

 

[Machiavelli]

The question I have is that even if you assume the whole called the cops after police arrive is true then why did Amanda alert Filomena that something was wrong at least 30-40 minutes earlier? Filomena could have called the cops herself. Why did she make that call if she was not ready for the cops to show up?

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

 

[Bill Williams]

My information (recalling by memory) was Sollecito called her sister at 12.51 and Carabinieri at 12.54 (not sure about the 12.51 call but anyway, I don't know about a 12.42 phone call to 112).

Filomena told Amanda to call the police in the 12.34/38 phone conversation.

I believe you are correct. Still, this settles the matter. That Crini tries to slip it in under the wire (that Raffaele called 112 AFTER the postals arrival), is part and parcel of what has been wrong with this whole case....

 

[Diocletus]

Has what hapened in this case put you off visiting Italy. Do you view Italy as a corrupt and backward country which should be avoided.

Honestly, yeah. I used to go every other year. Haven't been back in a few and not really that anxious to go there as opposed to other places.

I don't view all of Italy as corrupt. But I do think that the justice system is some combination of incompetent, dishonest and corrupt. I think that Perugians are losers. I have to say that I am a little surprised at the overall level of anti-Americanism that seems to be floating around over there.

Whatever. Spaghetti isn't all that anyway.

 

[Diocletus]

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

First of all, he called his sister first, and she was Carabinieri, so your stated time is misleading.

Second, Raffaele obviously would make the call, and not Amanda, since he is the Italian speaker.

Third, what is Filomena, some kind of boss? She should have locked her window.

 

[Bill Williams]

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

I think the one thing we all can agree upon is that there was no burglary in Filomena's room. That was merely a point of entrance....

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, this is what Raffaele says about this issue in his book.

Of all the things Amanda did that day, none attracted more criticism than her failure to raise the alarm as soon as she saw so many things out of place

.... a criticism that Raffaele writes, was joined in with by his own family.

But Raffaele goes on to say that even he didn't think much about it. He thought, "there had to be some explanation." When he suggested they leave for Gubbio anyway, Amanda found that suggestion a "little jarring."

Acc. to him, it was Amanda's idea to return to the cottage. Acc. to him, it was on the way over that Amanda called Filomena... hardily the action of someone going back to continue the "staging", "microscopic cleaning" or "cover-up" of a crime they knew had happened, only to have been surprised by the postals!

Acc. to Sollecito, despite Filomena's sketchy English and Amanda's sketchy Italian, the clear thing was that Filomena wanted Amanda to go back to the cottage to check things out. Filomena had promised to be at the cottage "within the hour."

When at the cottage, Amanda received a call from Filomena. Once again, the issue of the timing of the 112 call is a little immaterial. It was clear that Amanda was raising the alarm and that Filomena was, appropriately, ALARMED!

Such is the nature of the factoid of the timing of the 112 call - that Crini dropped into his summation about 3 1/2 years after anyone, but factoid-guilters, thought was important.

 

[NancyS]

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

18 minutes seems nothing compared to the year it took for the prosecution's witnesses to contact the police

 

[acbytesla]

Another question. Knox had already discovered the 'burglary'; she told Filomena, Filomena told Amanda to call the police immediately at about 12.34. Sollecito called at 12.52. Why waiting for another 18 minutes?

Does it matter? I know you looking through your guilt glasses from this delay. But it isn't proof of anything.

 

[acbytesla]

Has what hapened in this case put you off visiting Italy. Do you view Italy as a corrupt and backward country which should be avoided.

I had personally planned to take a trip to Italy next year. I am instead planning a trip to Barcelona and Mallorca.

Not that it will make much difference, but that has been my reaction.

 

[snook1]

18 minutes seems nothing compared to the year it took for the prosecution's witnesses to contact the police

Haha, teach him!

Seriously, Macchiavelli, isn't it about time to give it a rest already? No one believes in their guilt apart from both PMF's. Not even judges, who most probably will convict AK and RS on 30th of January, believe they are guilty.