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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

DGM said:
Problem is the OP has little bearing on reality. The question is an un -intentional strawman at best, I won't go on from here.


Why are you not more open? Everyone here is willing to discus this, you don't seem to want to do it on anything other than your terms.

Because it's a strawman you created.

:(
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Aside from the fact that you contradict yourself... the OP having no bearing on reality is nonsense and not a strawman.

We have one example of what appears to be a single column failure total building collapse... from office contents fires and I think it is a rather extraordinary situation... or maybe it isn't. It certainly is a reasonable topic to discuss on a site about skepticism and critical thinking.

I don't even care about the girder walk off...

Let's discuss how this happens, could happen... might have happen or in the case of 7wtc where supposedly we have evidence how it did happen.

I've raised issue about producing evidence ... steel and I've heard excuses like... the ID of 7wtc was not painted on the steel... or it was inconvenient and not a concern and so forth... Come on... one of the only total building collapses and no one is curious about how it actually happened enough to save some of the steel?

How do you account for engineer Cantor's "theory"? or the original work of FEMA now scrubbed from the new... asserting that the area BELOW floor 13 was a probable location? Or that NIST said there was nothing below floor 8 of interest in their investigation? Ha.. with all those transfer structures down there.... nothing was of interest to them?

You call discussing this a strawman?

Please explain.

Discuss it on any terms...

I am all ears...
 
ozeco41 said:
Despite that I comprehensively addressed the OP here and on several further occasions as the thread wandered and drifted along.

Sander could you do yourself and the rest of us a favour and read the NIST report NCSTAR 1A - Specifically the FOUR LS_DYNA analyses in Section 3.4 and the corresponding results in S4. Find out what NIST really did say.

You may get a pleasant surprise.
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OK I will
 
JSanderO said:
OK I will
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thumbup.gif

Good oh....then you can decide what you want to discuss:

1) The OP; OR
2) Some explicitly restated question(s).
 
DGM said:
No, that would be another strawman by you. Stop it.

Read the section Oz suggested. please.
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hahahahaha...

I did thanks...

They didn't mention a thing about not confirming heat temps by analysis of the steel.

They made several models (computer sims) I can't comment on this. I don't have the expertise.

They got the progression through the structure correct whether or not it was column 79 initiated or not!
 
JSanderO said:
hahahahaha...

I did thanks...

They didn't mention a thing about not confirming heat temps by analysis of the steel.

They made several models (computer sims) I can't comment on this. I don't have the expertise.

They got the progression through the structure correct whether or not it was column 79 initiated or not!
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You couldn't have done this in the amount of time between posts.

Read the report.
 
DGM said:
You couldn't have done this in the amount of time between posts.

Read the report.
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My reading comprehension may not be that great but I missed where they explained how the column buckled... see page 53 and 54... where they describe the initiating events of beam beating and expansion etc. and loss of connection to col 79? OK... and then??????????????????????

The fires weakened flrs 8-14 at column 79... was that softened the connections? or what? We are to understand the the collapse of some part of the slab on the north side of col 79 dropped and took out the slabs down to 8... and these were able to destroy TT1 and TT2? That's a good one!

Sure once column 79 buckled (not explained) 40 stories drop like a lead sinker... and then the TTF scenario kicks in. Check Got it.

Thanks for the ref. I see it all clear as day!
 
Loss Leader said:
It was. Huge passenger planes flew into the Twin Towers, which then rained debris onto WTC7. I'm surprised you hadn't heard.
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aside from the SW corner which was in the of the north facade... how much debris and how far did it penetrate over to 7WTC?

I don't think there is a shred of evidence that any fell on the NE quadrant of 7wtc where the structure let loose.

Can you amplify your comment?
 
JSanderO said:
My reading comprehension may not be that great but I missed where they explained how the column buckled... see page 53 and 54... where they describe the initiating events of beam beating and expansion etc. and loss of connection to col 79? OK... and then??????????????????????

The fires weakened flrs 8-14 at column 79... was that softened the connections? or what? We are to understand the the collapse of some part of the slab on the north side of col 79 dropped and took out the slabs down to 8... and these were able to destroy TT1 and TT2? That's a good one!

Sure once column 79 buckled (not explained) 40 stories drop like a lead sinker... and then the TTF scenario kicks in. Check Got it.

Thanks for the ref. I see it all clear as day!
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Why don't you want to do more than a glance over of the material?

That's all you did. Can you honestly say I'm wrong?

Read the material you so want to be wrong.
 
DGM said:
Why don't you want to do more than a glance over of the material?

That's all you did. Can you honestly say I'm wrong?

Read the material you so want to be wrong.
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I read it, but it would take more time and concentration and notes to absorb it all. I also re read parts of this thread.

Bit, I believe states that the column bucked because it was stripped over 8 floor or something by floor collapses. If there were 8 floors collapsing around 79 leaving it completely unbraced for 8 floor I can see how it could buckle.

I am not sure I can understand the 8 floors of column stripping by collapsing floors. My sense is NIST is suggesting that the the began with the stripping / dropping of the floor around 79 at flr 13 onto 12 which destroyed it then down onto 11 and so on.

My reaction is... I don't know.. it seems implausible... Floors dropped in 1wtc and they didn't cascade down... it took several floors I believe to get ROOSD going.

It also appears that in the report the global collapse involved the transfer structures and framing progressing westward through the plan. TT1 and TT2 were knocked down(?) by the "floor masses" crashing on it.... and they pulled a lot with them... like the rest of the building.

Was that your understanding of the referenced sections?
 
JSanderO said:
I read it, but it would take more time and concentration and notes to absorb it all. I also re read parts of this thread.

Bit, I believe states that the column bucked because it was stripped over 8 floor or something by floor collapses. If there were 8 floors collapsing around 79 leaving it completely unbraced for 8 floor I can see how it could buckle.

I am not sure I can understand the 8 floors of column stripping by collapsing floors. My sense is NIST is suggesting that the the began with the stripping / dropping of the floor around 79 at flr 13 onto 12 which destroyed it then down onto 11 and so on.

My reaction is... I don't know.. it seems implausible... Floors dropped in 1wtc and they didn't cascade down... it took several floors I believe to get ROOSD /going.

It also appears that in the report the global collapse involved the transfer structures and framing progressing westward through the plan. TT1 and TT2 were knocked down(?) by the "floor masses" crashing on it.... and they pulled a lot with them... like the rest of the building.

Was that your understanding of the referenced sections?
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Please.

Does anyone have any factual data about what happened INSIDE the towers? Were there engineers monitoring the "collapse"? Any photographers who captured the inside view? Any photo or video from the inside?

NO!
 
yankee451 said:
Please.

Does anyone have any factual data about what happened INSIDE the towers? Were there engineers monitoring the "collapse"? Any photographers who captured the inside view? Any photo or video from the inside?

NO!
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I know, right? If the NWO was in on it, they certainly would have had engineers monitoring the collapse.
 
Newtons Bit said:
I know, right? If the NWO was in on it, they certainly would have had engineers monitoring the collapse.
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With all the talk about the "collapses" and what may have occurred inside the towers you'd think there was some substance to it.

Pity it's just speculation based on a TeeVee show. Considering all the bluster going on around here I was under the impression this was some sort of "Educational Foundation". I'm shocked I tell you. SHOCKED!
 
yankee451 said:
Please.

Does anyone have any factual data about what happened INSIDE the towers? Were there engineers monitoring the "collapse"? Any photographers who captured the inside view? Any photo or video from the inside?

NO!
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Your point?
 
yankee451 said:
Please.

Does anyone have any factual data about what happened INSIDE the towers? Were there engineers monitoring the "collapse"? Any photographers who captured the inside view? Any photo or video from the inside?

NO!
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Depends which tower you refer to:
For the Twin Towers. Lots of photo and video record from outside. None from inside in the critical locations for the two key stages of collapse. External images plus knowledge of the structural arrangements gives sufficient data to enable explanation of the collapse mechanisms. So adequate factual data available to allow reasonably detailed explanation for what happened "inside". Status of engineers monitoring at the time not known - but not needed.

For WTC7. No internal images. Some data from external observations. Sequence of initiation of internal collapse - locations and timings is known. External evidence of frame distortion hours before collapse signalled likely collapse. Esp since building was steel framed, massive fires and fires not fought.
 
ozeco41 said:
Depends which tower you refer to:
For the Twin Towers. Lots of photo and video record from outside. None from inside in the critical locations for the two key stages of collapse. External images plus knowledge of the structural arrangements gives sufficient data to enable explanation of the collapse mechanisms. So adequate factual data available to allow reasonably detailed explanation for what happened "inside". Status of engineers monitoring at the time not known - but not needed.

For WTC7. No internal images. Some data from external observations. Sequence of initiation of internal collapse - locations and timings is known. External evidence of frame distortion hours before collapse signalled likely collapse. Esp since building was steel framed, massive fires and fires not fought.
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So I'm right when I say there is no data concerning what happened on the inside after impact, and that applies to both towers, yes?
 
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