Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

There is little point trying here but how many of the british girls or the Italian women had just met their lovers? With whom would Robyn Butterworth
Amy Frost, Sophie Purton, Natalie Hayward, Jade Bidwell, Samantha Rodenhurst, and Helen Powell snuggled with?

Personally I think that Amanda is narcissistic and a ditz. Her first appearance wasn't wearing a costume and that costume was some face paint and a shirt. In another time no one would have had any idea about what she did on Halloween of 2011.

It is odd that her expressing feelings for Meredith's memory is met with such meanness. Being the heartless guy I am, I would advise her to forget about Meredith and her family and move on as best she can.

Maybe we could get back to evidence including Curatolo's testimony. Please help out and translate the part where he says he saw them from 9:30 until just before midnight.

And Bill, this is a time I refer to Massei and point out that he changed the departing time to conform with disco buses that didn't exist. I don't care if he called her a psychopath or a normal child, but I do care when he distorted the evidence to convict.

 

[Strozzi]

Hi
The books I have read which have given me a good insight into to the various positions of the case are:

Law and Disorder by John Douglas (ch 28-32)
A Death in Italy by John Follain
Murder in Italy by Candace Dempsey
Angel Face: The true Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox by Barbie Nadeau
(The title was changed after she was found innocent by the Hellmann court)
The fatal gift of beauty: The trials of Amanda Knox by Nina Burleigh
as well as Honor Bound by R.S. and Waiting to be Heard by A.K.
Also of some interest is The Monster of Florence by Douglas Preston in giving some background to the Italian legal system and the prosecutor Mignini

By the way if anyone on this forum thinks I have missed out on a useful read as published in books or kindle, relating to the case then I would be interested!

I recommend an additonal book to the above list. “Single Attacker Theory of the Murder of Meredith Kercher” by Ron Hendry, forensic engineer.

 

[Rolfe]

From the Massei report:

“The fact [that the] duodenum [is] empty is not [necessarily] fully reliable.” (pg 179)

Until I can read Dr. Lalli's and Giancarlo Umani Ronchi's testimonies in English, I'll accept what I read in the Massei report on pages 177 – 179.

If you are also a human forensic pathologist who has read or written peer-reviewed papers on this topic, or has even had a great deal of experience with the topic of stomach emptying post-mortem during human autopsies, I'd be open to listening to what you have to say. If not, I'll wait until I can read the testimonies given by human forensic pathologists.

However, given your level of expertise, perhaps you were not satisfied with the medical specialist for the defense?

The whole thing is depressingly common. I've had the experience of having to sit in silence listening to a puffed-up defence barrister completely misrepresent what I had just said, complete with little diagrams he drew himself, in an attempt to deflect the medically irrefutable. I mean, I'm actually sitting there, and this balloon is coming out with complete mince about what I said, and of course I can't say a word. (He lost, but of course in England they never tell you why.)

The prosecution dredged up a number of cases where the digestive tract contents were not reliable as an indicator of time of death, and focussed on that bald statement. There are textbooks warning about the unreliability of this aspect of the pathology. And it's all absolutely true.

This deflects from the simple fact that this is one of the unusual cases where the digestive tract evidence does give a very reliable time of death. First, as Meredith ate her last meal in company, we have a good estimate of when it happened. Second, the evidence we're looking at is the gastric/duodenal transit, which has a lot less wiggle-room in it than observations of food that has transited further down the alimentary tract. Third, we know that Meredith was actually alive close to the upper limit of that transit time. It is unusual, and very fortuitous, that the circumstances were like this.

It's perfectly simple. Meredith ate the pizza around six, maybe half past. It was all still in her stomach when she died. She was not suffering from any digestive disease. It is completely, totally impossible that she lived as long as 11.30. 9.30 or not long after is probably your limit.

This was simply fudged by people throwing around words like "unreliable" without understanding what they were actually talking about.

Rolfe.

 

[AmyStrange]

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So Amanda is guilty of being annoying and self absorbed, which must be fairly common for 20-year-olds. When I was 20 I spent hours bitching about the annoying behaviour of my fellow 20-year-old friends and acquaintances and I'm sure they did the same about me - this has nothing to do with her being a murderer. She was also an American girl in Europe, where there is a stereotype of Americans being annoying, crass and loud - and this makes it hard to really know how much of her being 'annoying' was down to being American

The one thing I do know is that nearly all the young women I know could have been portrayed in a similar way - we all have embarrassing stories in our past, we've all behaved badly or inappropriately at times. I would like to know what Meredith's Italian flatmates and British friends were doing at the same time - did they drink wine, laugh, kiss their boyfriends, have sex, buy underwear, get drunk, accidentally make an inappropriate comment, laugh at the wrong time. Were they all perfect people or did some people find them annoying, drunken, flirtatious etc. etc. - we'll never know as they have not been subjected to the same scrutiny, the sort of scrutiny that can make anyone look bad.

Reading between the lines, perhaps there is some evidence that at the time Meredith was killed, Amanda was immature and a bit self absorbed - but this does not make her a murderer and how many people can say that they don't cringe at the behaviour of their 20-year-old selves. I can only imagine how many mixed up emotions she must have been experiencing. The shock of what had happened, the knowledge that it could easily have been her and the insecurity of being alone in a foreign country with no family support - as well as desperately not wanting to leave Italy and the horrific excitement of being at the centre of something so huge. I'm really not surprised her behaviour was a bit erratic. At times of great stress many people lurch from despair and grief to wanting to get drunk, have sex and act outrageously, anything to make themselves feel alive.

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Well said Nancy. You explained it better than I ever could have,

d

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[acbytesla]

It is possible for a person to have read the translated primary court documents and have come to an opinion of guilt, without hating, without degrading, without being irrational, and without having a pony in this race.

I agree. That said it is really impossible to come to this conclusion without ignoring relevant facts, both scientific and logical. One also has to be willing to conclude that specific police behavior is reasonable.

Most people in the Western world believe that justice is best served by requiring the prosecution to prove their case "beyond a reasonable doubt". One can view Amanda's statement and particularly the bra clasp as potential indicators of guilt. But beyond those two points which are both tenuous. The statement has even been determined to be "inadmissible" by the Supreme Court. And the DNA evidence from the bra clasp and the knife. (The knife is a logical absurdity) both have been criticized as not credible by everyone from the court appointed unbiased DNA experts Conti and Vechiotti and Rome's own DNA lab.

One can believe the two to be guilty without being a hater, but very few people seem to be able to limit themselves to that position without falling into the trap of posting horrible hateful things about Amanda. Very few seem to be able to limit themselves to arguing the physical clues and logical evidence. Eventually they turned to "metaphysical" evidence and personality traits that are almost all made up in their minds based on virtually nothing.

Probably one of the best lines delivered in the trial was one of the defense attorneys quotes from the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". He quoted the vampish Jessica Rabbit who said "I'm not bad, I'm only drawn that way".

Feel free to read through Machiavelli and Briar's and Stillcho's post and see just how much of their arguments are based on non-existent personality traits that they have created for Amanda. They have this backwards logic. They have already determined Amanda to be guilty so they make a villain out of Amanda and then use that false portrayal as an actual reason why she is guilty.

 

[andreajo]

Amanda's social immaturity and self absorption is not the reason she stands accused. I've shared my thoughts on evidence and timelines more than once on this site.

Her social immaturity and self-absorption <i>were used as evidence </i>against her in court. Italian police, Filomena, and Filomena's boyfriend testified in court on her demeanor.

One example presented in court is the allegation that she did a cartwheel in the police station. What would that have to do with whether she was or was not present at the cottage on the evening/night of the crime?

Her general behavior was absolutely a factor in how she became accused of a crime. Call it self-absorption and social immaturity if you wish.

Edgardo Giobbi, lead investigator: We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reaction during the investigation. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation.

His suspicions were initially aroused by a provocative hip swivel by Amanda when she put on protective shoe covers at the crime scene.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions

 

[Grinder]

She is under a lot of pressure to keep the path expected of her from supporters I agree it must be a terrible strain and I think she is definatly showing signs. Remember the bruised knuckles and crying after one interview that didn't go so well. Personally I think there must be a part of her like most people that commit a random crime to need to be forgiven.This is what I heard when she told Dianne she just wants to be reconsidered as a person. I think if she is able to admit to her involvement whatever it was it will be better for her. She is young and still has time to show growth and contribute in a positive way.

Another meme of the PGP has been that she will re-offend. They spent thousands of posts on how dangerous the two were and are, yet to date nothing except bruised knuckles. Do you think that an innocent person confronted with endless prosecutions, forced to do a book tour in order to repay a huge amount of money for a trial that should never have happened might cause one to become angry?

I would say that if her character as described by you and the PGP would be able to handle all the attention with panache. She would revel in the role rather than finding it stressful. To review; if she were the person you think she needed to be to kill Meredith etc., then she wouldn't be flustered by the interviews etc.

If she had gone through all of the last two years with a smile and no anger then what would you say?

 

[AmyStrange]

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The whole thing is depressingly common. I've had the experience of having to sit in silence listening to a puffed-up defence barrister completely misrepresent what I had just said, complete with little diagrams he drew himself, in an attempt to deflect the medically irrefutable. I mean, I'm actually sitting there, and this balloon is coming out with complete mince about what I said, and of course I can't say a word. (He lost, but of course in England they never tell you why.)

The prosecution dredged up a number of cases where the digestive tract contents were not reliable as an indicator of time of death, and focussed on that bald statement. There are textbooks warning about the unreliability of this aspect of the pathology. And it's all absolutely true.

This deflects from the simple fact that this is one of the unusual cases where the digestive tract evidence does give a very reliable time of death. First, as Meredith ate her last meal in company, we have a good estimate of when it happened. Second, the evidence we're looking at is the gastric/duodenal transit, which has a lot less wiggle-room in it than observations of food that has transited further down the alimentary tract. Third, we know that Meredith was actually alive close to the upper limit of that transit time. It is unusual, and very fortuitous, that the circumstances were like this.

It's perfectly simple. Meredith ate the pizza around six, maybe half past. It was all still in her stomach when she died. She was not suffering from any digestive disease. It is completely, totally impossible that she lived as long as 11.30. 9.30 or not long after is probably your limit.

This was simply fudged by people throwing around words like "unreliable" without understanding what they were actually talking about.

Rolfe.

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Thank you Rolfe and well said also.

Your analysis, plus Meredith's last try to call her mother, Rudy's skype and plus I know enough about forensics to know you speak the truth
(not to mention their alibi), was one of the many reasons I began to realize that it was highly improbable (to the point of it being almost impossible) for Amanda and Raffaele to have done the crime,

d

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[AmyStrange]

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Another meme of the PGP has been that she will re-offend. They spent thousands of posts on how dangerous the two were and are, yet to date nothing except bruised knuckles. Do you think that an innocent person confronted with endless prosecutions, forced to do a book tour in order to repay a huge amount of money for a trial that should never have happened might cause one to become angry?

I would say that if her character as described by you and the PGP would be able to handle all the attention with panache. She would revel in the role rather than finding it stressful. To review; if she were the person you think she needed to be to kill Meredith etc., then she wouldn't be flustered by the interviews etc.

If she had gone through all of the last two years with a smile and no anger then what would you say?

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You are correct Grinder and you have summed up my feelings about Amanda's actions and possible psychology quite nicely. I may not agree with you about her just shutting up (I too would have had a hard time shutting up, especially if I was innocent), but I'm willing to agree to disagree here and you may well be right. Many times I have been told in my life to just shut up and leave something alone, but it's hard for me to do, and maybe I should just shut up now,

d

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[Grinder]

I'd love to read your timeline?

I doubt it.

She has them at the plaza and then slipping down to the cottage between sightings from Curatolo and without being seen by the people in the broken down car or the tow truck driver.

She does have this happening much earlier than the Massei court TOD. i think around 10:15. Curatolo not noticing them missing is ignored. How the knife is transported is not clear. How Rudy became involved is not clear.

That's my best recollection fron a month ago.

I would like Briars to translate the original court testimony by Curatolo and mock Massei for moving the end time back to 11:30 because of the buses that turned out not to be present that night.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Her general behavior was absolutely a factor in how she became accused of a crime. Call it self-absorption and social immaturity if you wish.

Edgardo Giobbi, lead investigator: We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reaction during the investigation. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation.

His suspicions were initially aroused by a provocative hip swivel by Amanda when she put on protective shoe covers at the crime scene.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions

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Not to mention that one of the detectives in this case had said that when he saw her and Raffaele eating pizza after the murder was discoverd was what started him getting suspicious about their involvement.

All in all, well stated also,

d

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[Strozzi]

Her general behavior was absolutely a factor in how she became accused of a crime. Call it self-absorption and social immaturity if you wish.

Edgardo Giobbi, lead investigator: We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reaction during the investigation. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation.

His suspicions were initially aroused by a provocative hip swivel by Amanda when she put on protective shoe covers at the crime scene.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions

This is terrible malpractice by the Perugis police to use their perceptions of a 20 year old foreign girl's immaturity and self-absorbtion to target her as a suspect in a crime. They had little common language with her, let alone cultural understanding or psychological understanding of the individual.

I have wondered if the hip-swivel was in fact a hip-swivel. Does anyone know if there was a bench or other place to sit at the front door available to Amanda at the moment she put on her booties? (I did not see it in the video.) If there was no surface right there to sit on, or if it was occupied by a police officer using it to put on his/her booties, Amanda would probably have stood on one foot and bent her let to raise the other shoe up to put on her bootie. Did she teeter a bit to maintain balance. Did she observe others around her teeter a bit to maintain their balance? Her saying something like "ta-da" when she stood back up means nothing more in English than I got them on without tipping.

 

[Rolfe]

Thank you Rolfe and well said also.

Your analysis, plus Meredith's last try to call her mother, Rudy's skype and plus I know enough about forensics to know you speak the truth
(not to mention their alibi), was one of the many reasons I began to realize that it was highly improbable (to the point of it being almost impossible) for Amanda and Raffaele to have done the crime,

Yes, of course the digestive tract evidence also fits with all the other evidence, which is what happens when you have the right explanation.

The thing the guilters don't seem to realise is that impossible things don't happen. We get things like, but what if Meredith had been proved to be alive at 11 o'clock (say she had sent an email or something)? Well in that case her meal would not have been in her stomach. It's that simple.

When you find yourself having to dream up special pleading to make your theory work, you know you have the wrong theory. Mutually exclusive things don't happen. So if it looks as if they have, then one of them didn't happen, or not the way you think it did.

The scream and the running footsteps and so on might have been important. If they fitted with everything else, they probably would have been important. But they're not incontrovertible. There are obviously other explanations. There is no other explanation for the digestive tract contents. If that seems to conflict with the scream and so on, it's the scream that has to go.

Rolfe.

 

[AmyStrange]

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Yes, of course the digestive tract evidence also fits with all the other evidence, which is what happens when you have the right explanation.

The thing the guilters don't seem to realise is that impossible things don't happen. We get things like, but what if Meredith had been proved to be alive at 11 o'clock (say she had sent an email or something)? Well in that case her meal would not have been in her stomach. It's that simple.

When you find yourself having to dream up special pleading to make your theory work, you know you have the wrong theory. Mutually exclusive things don't happen. So if it looks as if they have, then one of them didn't happen, or not the way you think it did.

The scream and the running footsteps and so on might have been important. If they fitted with everything else, they probably would have been important. But they're not incontrovertible. There are obviously other explanations. There is no other explanation for the digestive tract contents. If that seems to conflict with the scream and so on, it's the scream that has to go.

Rolfe.

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Didn't someone do test concerning the scream and found that the "ear-witness" (I can't remember the witness's name offhand) couldn't have heard the scream or the running steps?

Also, body temp is probably one of the best indicators overall, if there are no unusual conditions (being found, or stored, in a freezer etc.), but if I remember correctly no one took Meredith's body temp in a timely manner. The longer it takes, the more unreliable the results of body temp are, but if the time of the last meal is known, stomach digestion can be just as reliable, if not better than body temp in some cases. This is one of those cases,

d

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[AmyStrange]

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This is terrible malpractice by the Perugis police to use their perceptions of a 20 year old foreign girl's immaturity and self-absorbtion to target her as a suspect in a crime. They had little common language with her, let alone cultural understanding or psychological understanding of the individual.

I have wondered if the hip-swivel was in fact a hip-swivel. Does anyone know if there was a bench or other place to sit at the front door available to Amanda at the moment she put on her booties? (I did not see it in the video.) If there was no surface right there to sit on, or if it was occupied by a police officer using it to put on his/her booties, Amanda would probably have stood on one foot and bent her let to raise the other shoe up to put on her bootie. Did she teeter a bit to maintain balance. Did she observe others around her teeter a bit to maintain their balance? Her saying something like "ta-da" when she stood back up means nothing more in English than I got them on without tipping.

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I have known many men who have misread women's actions to help boost their egos. Hell some men think that if a women smiles at them, that means they want to have sex with them. It happens a lot more than most people think or are willing to admit,

d

ETA: I worked at some places where I had to wear those booties (a cancer research facility), and I know from personal experience that without somewhere to sit while putting them on, it's hard to do without swiveling around just a little. Good catch Strozzi.
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[acbytesla]

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Didn't someone do test concerning the scream and found that the "ear-witness" (I can't remember the witness's name offhand) couldn't have heard the scream or the running steps?

Also, body temp is probably one of the best indicators overall, if there are no unusual conditions (being found, or stored, in a freezer etc.), but if I remember correctly no one took Meredith's body temp in a timely manner. The longer it takes, the more unreliable the results of body temp are, but if the time of the last meal is known, stomach digestion can be just as reliable, if not better than body temp in some cases. This is one of those cases,

d

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One of the television stations sound engineers determined that it was an impossibility. I know it is because I have moonlighted as a sound engineer for rock bands. High pitched frequencies like screams don't travel very well and consider that the scream took place "inside the cottage" and according to the police and prosecution with closed windows and doors. Any scream taking place would have been significantly muffled. Consider that the only window in Meredith's bedroom is pointed away from the "ear witnesses" and down the valley. A scream would have had to travel through 1 foot thick walls or the double paned glass door of the cottage more than halfway across a football field or "pitch" (for the rest of the world) and through another closed double pane glass window.

Now one can speculate that the sound only needed to travel through the broken window of Filomena's room, but if we are to believe that the burglary was "staged" as is the prosecution's totally unsubstantiated theory than the window wouldn't have been broken at the time of Meredith's murder.

The body temperature was not taken until the body was at the morgue hours later. The PM Mignini prevented Lalli the coroner from taking the body temperature at the murder scene.

 

[Welshman]

Briars attacks Amanda for her behavior. The problem which plagued this case was that a hysterical lynch mob mentality took over and people like Briars are the result of this lynch mob mentality. Because of the lynch mob mentality everthing that Amanda did or did not do would be wrong. Amanda was in a no win situation. Rudy stabbed to death and sexually assaulted a young woman as she lay dying. He then went dancing as if nothing had happened. Despite this Briars and other guilters never condemn Rudy for inappropriate behaviour. The police and prosecution violated the rights of Amanda during the interrogations, lied, suppressed evidence and did not follow protocols for the handling of forensic evidence. Briars never condemns the police and prosecution for inappropriate behaviour.

 

[AmyStrange]

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One of the television stations sound engineers determined that it was an impossibility. I know it is because I have moonlighted as a sound engineer for rock bands. High pitched frequencies like screams don't travel very well and consider that the scream took place "inside the cottage" and according to the police and prosecution with closed windows and doors. Any scream taking place would have been significantly muffled. Consider that the only window in Meredith's bedroom is pointed away from the "ear witnesses" and down the valley. A scream would have had to travel through 1 foot thick walls or the double paned glass door of the cottage more than halfway across a football field or "pitch" (for the rest of the world) and through another closed double pane glass window.

Now one can speculate that the sound only needed to travel through the broken window of Filomena's room, but if we are to believe that the burglary was "staged" as is the prosecution's totally unsubstantiated theory than the window wouldn't have been broken at the time of Meredith's murder.

The body temperature was not taken until the body was at the morgue hours later. The PM Mignini prevented Lalli the coroner from taking the body temperature at the murder scene.

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Yup, you're right. It's why old-school tower speakers were designed with the tweeters up at top, because the line of travel from speaker to ear is not as far, or something like that. I used to work as a party DJ and know this to be true. Interestingly enough, when you turn the tweeter off, music becomes noticeably muffled, especially the singer's voice.

Thanks AC,

d

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[acbytesla]

I have seen nothing of Amanda Knox since the crime was committed that let's me know she is a caring sensitive girl. True I don't know anything of her past other than the last 7 years. The behaviour at the Questura the kissing joking feet in Rafs lap is in stark contrast to the others. Unaware that her behaviour was annoying to her flatmates, Story of appearing nude and not embarrassed in front of her friend's boyfriend.The interviews where she explained everyone grieved differently rang false and hollow. She appeared to want to continue to have fun and did not appear to be too upset by the murder except to say it could have been her. The book , the hot video ,more evidence of her self absorption. Her first appearance free wearing a Halloween costume.The latest round of wanting to visit the grave after she was told it was against the Kercher's wishes. Self absorbed for sure maybe you know a different girl.

But then again, you view everything about Amanda through "glasses of guilt".
As if the kissing and joking with Raf hours later makes any difference. People cope with death, loss and stress very differently than one another.

I really am kind of flabbergasted by your view because it totally relies on second and third hand observations. Not your own. Somehow the "book, or a hot video demonstrates that Amanda doesn't care about others? Is Amanda supposed to see her parents their heavily mortgaged homes foreclosed on or become a nun to satisfy your tastes?

Personally I don't blame Amanda for wanting to visit Meredith's grave. Frankly, I think she has a right to say goodbye to her friend. Because she didn't kill Meredith, When are you going to get that fact through your head.

Why don't you try and view Amanda's behavior without those glasses and try on a pair that actually sees Amanda as she is?

 

[AmyStrange]

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But then again, you view everything about Amanda through "glasses of guilt".
As if the kissing and joking with Raf hours later makes any difference. People cope with death, loss and stress very differently than one another.

I really am kind of flabbergasted by your view because it totally relies on second and third hand observations. Not your own. Somehow the "book, or a hot video demonstrates that Amanda doesn't care about others? Is she supposed to see her parents lose their mortgaged homes foreclose on or become a nun to satisfy your tastes?

Personally I don't blame Amanda for wanting to visit Meredith's grave. Frankly, I think she has a right to say goodbye to her friend. Because she didn't kill Meredith, When are you going to get that fact through your head.

Why don't you try and view Amanda's behavior without those glasses and try on a pair that actually sees Amanda as she is?

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I'd also like to add to your excellent comment AC, that the next time you (Briars) attend a funeral or wake, pay closer attention to how everyone there acts. If you do, and you're honest with yourself, you'll see a whole myriad of different reactions to someone's death. It's why, I think, no one takes pictures at those things. Hell, you should hear some of the black humour homicide detectives use to distance themselves from the horrors they are investigating. It's sometimes a defensive mechanism,

d

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