Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Not that's important but the UW is located in the north end of the city in what is generally thought as the better part of the city. The part of the city north of the ship canal is traditionally where richer, whiter and more educated citizens live.

The U-District is most likely the highest crime area in North Seattle but mostly because of all the young people both at the UW and homeless kids that are aided by churches near the campus.

As for it being "smack dab in the center of Seattle" - 5 mile from the north border and 11 miles from the southern border - clearly not in the center.

The U-District is more tacky than dangerous.

 

[moije2]

I have family, friends and co-workers dotted around the States and I would have to agree folks moved on from this case a long time ago, sure there will be the peaks of media interest; this case matters to a relatively small group of people (PIP and PGP) who for various reasons have chosen to follow the case, it’s the same in the UK.

Yes most people have moved on. Currently. Not so different than before the the verdicts in 2007 and 2009. But when it happened it was very much of interest. At least if you judge by the media saturation at the moment of the judgments.

So we can all make our predictions as to the level of interest if and when a guilty verdict comes down and they try to extradite Amanda. Outside of a handful of internet bloggers this case has little current "interest". But I guaranty you that the trials in their various permutations up to date HAVE left an impression on people as to the "Italian system". And that is what I was responding to when Machiavelli said that it was AK and RS on trial, not the "Italian system". Darn near everything on this blog is commentary directly or indirectly on "the system".

 

[Katody Matrass]

Joh a friend of the roommate tells us masks and an assualt was part of the prank Easy to think that if a female encounters an intruder with a mask and there was reason to believe an assualt was imminent then that might involve a rape attempt.

Joh Oso was a co-worker according to his own words. That's few steps lower than friend. This, together with the other unfunny comment of his and the general creepiness of his myspace site makes me cautious about his credibility.

 

[Grinder]

Joh a friend of the roommate tells us masks and an assualt was part of the prank Easy to think that if a female encounters an intruder with a mask and there was reason to believe an assualt was imminent then that might involve a rape attempt.

"Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and *********** nuts. - Joh"
​

Where does he say he is friends with a roommate? You just make that up?

Where does he say that they assaulted a female? Right, you made that up too.

Having totally made up it all up you now move on to guess that this assault will evolve into a rape...so why not say kidnap.

How much money do you think a tab or TV crime show would have paid for the person assaulted, kidnapped and raped to come forward?

 

[Dan O.]

If you wish to PM me and tell me how I could help make it public let me know.

I don't need to PM unless you lost the link. What is first needed is to show that there is an ongoing commitment by enough people to keep the site current. To go public I'll need a new hosting plan. I can provide that but want to see that the support is going to be there first. There will need to be a great gathering of documents and translations. Some work will be involved in wikifying the documents, verifying sources and giving the site a clean look. This could begin on the private wiki to try out formats before going public.

 

[Bill Williams]

Briars those quotes came from Peggy on Oct. 11, 2011. Go ahead and Google "perugia murder file and prank" and you will see the subject was discussed throughout.

Peggy said "No one in the FOA has ever denied this story, which is about all that can be said. Incidentally, I don't know that this prank occurred on Halloween. It was said that AK and fellow pranksters wore ski masks and "kidnapped" someone in their dorm, who was terrified by this joke."

Joh never said anything about rape or kidnapping.

As I said earlier the PGP made up bs about bs but you can't admit it.

Go to PMF and search for 'prank' and you will see how often it was discussed over the years.

By the way it wasn't a robbery prank which implies a face to face with the victim as opposed to moving items in a house to give the impression that they had been burgled.

The resurrection of the story has been by Amanda

Initially she ignored a question by Celeste on her blog. Interesting what followed she was asked by another to put the rape prank" to rest .

So was it Amanda that resurrected the story or PMFers?

The story was brought up over 2 years ago. Peggy may have been convinced but she didn't push it. So not a rape prank but an assault with masks rumor ok.Why do you need a bunch of friends to just mess up a place? Amanda tells us no one was hurt for some reason? Would that be no one was hurt while moving furniture?

What Knox had to deal with on her blog, was simply a continuation of the factoid of the "rape prank." She dealt with it. And now, for some obsessive reason, guilters/haters are pee'ing themselves thinking they've resolved this case!

As much as it pains me to say, I agree with Grinder here.

My entry point was Aug 2011, and two factoids played big as I toured the various websites... one was the "rape prank", and the other was "sex on a train." Guilters were putting those two things amongst many, which comprised "all the other evidence."

I remember Peter Quennell, well before I knew who he was, writing about the, then, collapse of the DNA evidence. It's there in one of his thousands of editorials on this case.... he pretty much conceded that the DNA evidence had collapsed in the Hellmann court, but, he said, fortunately there is, "all the other evidence," to establish guilt.

Two that played big were as mentioned. I spent the better part of two evenings years ago trying to track down what could be known about this train business... and found that it was what I now regard as typical: some guilter took the most hazy of allegation, turned it around, and it became guilter-canon: sex on a train proved what a slut Amanda was and how she'd then had psychopathology enough to commit murder.

Of course, all this was in lieu of any actual evidence she'd been involved! But man oh man, Peter Q. assured us, there was "all the other evidence!"

So what that it all collapses one by one, and was nothing but factoids to begin with!

But the "rape prank" played big. For the longest time all most guilters would do is make reference to it.... without the sourcing, it was usually, "This demented person filled with psychopathology even engaged in a rape-prank!"

For me it is why it's so telling that Judge Massei makes absolutely no mention of psychopathology of the two students, all the while with Mignini trying to fill Massei's courtroom with such suspicions. Mignini's last words at his summation was a faux-quote he attributed to Amanda, he even admitted he was making it up, but he put these words into Amanda's mouth about Meredith, "We will make her have sex!"

It's why my opinion is that Massei, who heard it all, found as factual that there was no psychopathology in either of the two students.

What we have now, in 2014, is the alleged "rape-prank" being used as a guilter-staple.... now that we know it was an April Fools joke, probably a harmless one.... but then again no one really likes to be pranked.....

But look what has happened in guilter-land with it... Machiavelli has invoked the old Mafia code of silence to explain why people in Seattle have been, "so silent about it," not being a rape prank at all - as if it belongs to the citizens of Seattle to correct some internet poster named Machiavelli! The whole metropolitan area of Seattle, from Marysville to Tacoma was involved in a massive coverup that it had really been an April Fools prank, and look - no one involved has come forward. Oooooooooooooooo! Sheesh.

I've been silent about the fact I got the pointer in Grade 7. Oooooooooooooo. There's been a conspiracy of silence about that too!

The fact is in guilter-land there is no incident innocuous enough not to be blown completely out of proportion. And after 5 or 6 years of making stuff up about rape-pranks, guilters have the bloody cheek to blame Amanda and Seattleites for not clearing this up!

There's an Alice in Wonderland quote lurking somewhere where.... for some obsessive reason, guilters/haters are pee'ing themselves thinking they've resolved this case with an April Fools prank that, quite frankly, was probably not very funny to begin with!

But is it the Rosetta Stone for unlocking the secret of King Tut's tomb? Sheesh.

 

[Bill Williams]

Joh a friend of the roommate tells us masks and an assualt was part of the prank Easy to think that if a female encounters an intruder with a mask and there was reason to believe an assualt was imminent then that might involve a rape attempt.

Joh Oso was a co-worker according to his own words. That's few steps lower than friend. This, together with the other unfunny comment of his and the general creepiness of his myspace site makes me cautious about his credibility.

Briars, I really wish you would read and reread your post above three or four times. If that is what you call "evidence" worthy of speculating upon....

.... it's no wonder people in guilter land are confused. I wonder - what does the Wiki now say about this? Does it, too, build speculation upon speculation, about what a friend of a roommate once said?

No wonder guilters rarely attempt a comprehensive timeline for this crime. It's much more fun speculating about what a friend of a friend of a roommate's hairdresser once read in a magazine.

 

[smkovalinksy]

What is the basis for this rumor.

Nadeau and another text. I see no reason for them to lie about Giacomo.

 

[Grinder]

Bill - But the "rape prank" played big. For the longest time all most guilters would do is make reference to it.... without the sourcing, it was usually, "This demented person filled with psychopathology even engaged in a rape-prank!" show me one example from 2011 where a PGP used 'psychopathology'.

The prank concept has been omnipresent since first discovered. I would say that the PGP used it as part of their scenario of how the murder happened. She was into extreme pranks and tired one on Meredith and turned out badly. It is actually one of the better ways of getting the three together and even bringing the knife.

What Briars can't bring herself to admit is that the PGP have been spewing garbage about this and so much else yet she refuses to allow discussion of pertinent things such as Meredith's behavior patterns.

 

[Paninaro]

What is the basis for this rumor.

According to Nina Burleigh from the statement to the police of Giacomo Silenzis friend Marco Marzan on November 4, 2007.

"Pressed for intimate details, Marco told police that Giacomo had boasted of having had anal and oral sex with Meredith."

(The Fatal Gift of Beauty, p. 110)

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill - But the "rape prank" played big. For the longest time all most guilters would do is make reference to it.... without the sourcing, it was usually, "This demented person filled with psychopathology even engaged in a rape-prank!" show me one example from 2011 where a PGP used 'psychopathology'.

The prank concept has been omnipresent since first discovered. I would say that the PGP used it as part of their scenario of how the murder happened. She was into extreme pranks and tired one on Meredith and turned out badly. It is actually one of the better ways of getting the three together and even bringing the knife.

What Briars can't bring herself to admit is that the PGP have been spewing garbage about this and so much else yet she refuses to allow discussion of pertinent things such as Meredith's behavior patterns.

I'd settle for a comprehensive timeline for this crime. One which does not trample the evidence.

For instance, Massei ultimately fails in his narrative of the crime - he ends up having to make up, from thin air, how the kinfe got to the cottage because he sees no premeditation..... that sort of thing.

No wonder Briars never tries, and why guilters in general would rather rattle the cage over a long-ago April Fools prank.... which probably wasn't even that funny back then; quite worthy of being forgotten.

For the record, here are some amazing April Fools pranks.

In 1957, the BBC pulled a prank, known as the Swiss Spaghetti Harvest prank, where they broadcast a fake video of Swiss farmers picking freshly-grown spaghetti. The BBC were later flooded with requests to purchase a spaghetti plant, forcing them to declare the video as a prank on the news the next day.

This prank was later cited in evidence against one of the BBC producers who went on to a life of crime himself, mostly white collar-stuff in fooling customers about the nature of the product he was peddling.

Hoax phone call to Mandela: In 1998, UK presenter Nic Tuff of West Midlands radio station pretended to be the British Prime Minister Tony Blair when he called the then South African President Nelson Mandela for a chat. It was only at the end of the call when Nic asked Nelson what he was doing for April Fools' Day that the line went dead.

Nic Tuff needed to hold out in the Peruvian embassy with Wikileaks founder, Julian Assage....

 

[JREF2010]

I'd settle for a comprehensive timeline for this crime. One which does not trample the evidence.

For instance, Massei ultimately fails in his narrative of the crime - he ends up having to make up, from thin air, how the kinfe got to the cottage because he sees no premeditation..... that sort of thing.

No wonder Briars never tries, and why guilters in general would rather rattle the cage over a long-ago April Fools prank.... which probably wasn't even that funny back then; quite worthy of being forgotten.

For the record, here are some amazing April Fools pranks.



This prank was later cited in evidence against one of the BBC producers who went on to a life of crime himself, mostly white collar-stuff in fooling customers about the nature of the product he was peddling.



Nic Tuff needed to hold out in the Peruvian embassy with Wikileaks founder, Julian Assage....

That really says it all, the inability for the Hate Mongers to present a consistent layout of the crime.

Instead we get 20 different motives and even 6yrs later its a theory of a different kind yet again with Crini.

The even sadder reality is the weaker knowledge of the ISC, its almost amazing they didn't include the bloody tennis shoeprint as Raffaeles again.

The hate mongers have shown great ability to slander about everything else and anyone else who doesn't support the hate, but I guess discussion forums are open for any drivel.

Still 6yrs later, prosecution presents no solid timeline, no agreement of evidence, no agreement on motive, no consistency between prosecutors.
Just random accusations and fantasy theorys.

Hellman released them, at least they don't have to sit in the guilty seat anymore while Nencini and his following jurors read a little bit about the case before making their verdict.

 

[acbytesla]

Sorry, I can't tell for sure who is 'in' and 'out'. I know that there is a group of people - almost all from Seattle - who knew the Knox family and have always been disingenuous and non-transparent. These people certainly include judge Heavey, the executives and headmaster of the Seattle Prep (which I would call the Seattle Perp), a large number of acquaintences and speakers (when there are people like Tom Wright who are reported to say "friends of the family will defend Amanda independently from the evidence", this does not really need comment). But I do not address just people: also a restricted "culture" these people apparently share, an atmosphere, a shared attitude, which I promptly define racist and mafious.

Then there is an enlarged group that has added over time, that started to revolve around the first core - Seattle Prep, Rotary, local masonry, Gogerty Marriott working as original flywheels. Steve Moore for example was an outsider and a late entry. All mainstream media and media circus came in later. Many of these "external" people can well also be qualified as disingenuous.
But then I assume there must be also a large layer of 'normal' people revolving around this who are not what I would call 'racist' and not intellectually dishonest. I don't know in what degree they share the cultural views of the rotten "core". There isn't a clear demarcation line but I know that some do not, at least some of the innocentisti have attitudes significantly different and far from sharing this common feeling of belonging and 'ethics' (I know this because several have spoken with me privately).

You know Machiavelli, This is one of your biggest nonsense and ignorant posts yet. If you spent a few months in Seattle, you would come to realize just how ignorant it is.

Seattle is one of the most advanced, most modern, most literate, most liberal and least racist cities in the United States. Believe me, I have lived in many places in the country including the Deep South and some rural areas where there is a significantly larger populations of bigots.

People in this city are overall very tolerant of pretty much all races, religion, sex, sexual preference and sexual identity. Washington State with Seattle leading the way has pushed for and enacted laws against sexual preference including allowing gay marriage. It has had women mayors, African American mayors and now has a gay mayor. The county and the State has had an Asian mayor as well as a woman mayor.

Can you say the same in Perugia? My guess is no.

You even take a shot at the headmaster of Seattle Prep and add a very derogatory comment calling "Seattle Perp". As if you have a clue about it or them.

You seem to think that anyone who defends Amanda is some kind of idiot or part of some conspiracy. I assure you that is not the case. I really feel sorry for you and your ignorance.

 

[LBR]

Get your facts straight. One comment came from the Skype chat and the other from the Skype call that followed.

This makes sense now.

 

[LBR]

It's an authoritarian meme that only someone that was there in court every day can divine the truth. The reality is that the trial is a controlled event designed to produce an approximation of the truth in a reasonable time while balancing the resources available to all sides. We are outside of the court restrictions so we don't have to rely on intuition to judge the integrity of the testimonies given. We can instead attempt to verify the details, look for additional evidence, construct and test our own theories and discuss the results openly and take all the time we need until a consensus forms around the best truth that can be extracted from the available evidence.

Regarding the authoritarian meme, I plead guilty.

Regarding the open discussion “until a consensus forms around the best truth that can be extracted from the available evidence”, - this amounts to the court of public opinion. This is a court that for all intents and purposes, will not matter come January 30th.

JREF has come to a consensus of innocence, as has IIP. TJMK and PMF have come to a consensus of guilt. There is no common ground or any agreement on any of the evidence (circumstantial or forensic) presented between these divergent courts of public opinion.

It is possible for a person to have read the translated primary court documents and have come to an opinion of guilt, without hating, without degrading, without being irrational, and without having a pony in this race. It is also possible for a person to be devoid of arrogance, and to admit that he or she is not completely sure of this stance. Therefore, I rely on my meme and not on the opinions of strangers on a forum. If they are truly innocent, I hope the wisdom of the court in Florence judges it to be so. If they are truly guilty, then I hope that this is the judgement with punishment to follow.

The reason I posted on JREF is because my curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to know whether there were people who believed in Amanda's and Raffaele's innocence dispassionately, but who were also open to the possibility of their guilt. It appears that the answer would be, no. (But thanks Planigale – your response was at least dispassionate and genuine).

 

[AmyStrange]

-

The whole point of a wiki is its editability. It says all I need to know that when an error (I mean it's bound to have a few just in normal times!) crops up, it can be fixed.

That wiki is now the equivalent of the Wikipedia article on "The Murder of Meredith Kercher", where people contributing from the innocence side were complained about and banned. It took the personal intervention of no less than Jimbo Wales to remedy it, and a senior Wikipedia editor was assigned. There were no less than 35+ "talk pages" generated by BRMull alone! Pages!

It's why many believe that this wiki in question is BRMull project - posing as Edward McCall, whoever that is. The two obsessions the fellow had were Wikipedia and saying slutty things about Amanda Knox.

-

I remember reading the talk page when that happened and there were people there who implied that Jim (Wales, who was looking into the fairness of that page) was intervening because he wanted to have sex with Amanda.

That pretty much said it all for me,

d

-

 

[smkovalinksy]

According to Nina Burleigh from the statement to the police of Giacomo Silenzis friend Marco Marzan on November 4, 2007.

"Pressed for intimate details, Marco told police that Giacomo had boasted of having had anal and oral sex with Meredith."

(The Fatal Gift of Beauty, p. 110)

Thank you for this, it was in Nadeau's text as well.

 

[Briars]

According to Nina Burleigh from the statement to the police of Giacomo Silenzis friend Marco Marzan on November 4, 2007.

"Pressed for intimate details, Marco told police that Giacomo had boasted of having had anal and oral sex with Meredith."

(The Fatal Gift of Beauty, p. 110)

Yes according to Nina?The boys were interviewed by police separately and Giacomo no doubt first before the 4th Very doubtful there was any talk of bragging.The shocked boys shared their experiences as to what the police asked. Any talk of bragging at that sensitive and traumatic time is Burleigh fantasy, which she builds her book on.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Yes according to Nina?The boys were interviewed by police separately and Giacomo no doubt first before the 4th Very doubtful there was any talk of bragging.The shocked boys shared their experiences as to what the police asked. Any talk of bragging at that sensitive and traumatic time is Burleigh fantasy, which she builds her book on.

So why does Barbie Nadeau say it as well?

 

[JREF2010]

Regarding the authoritarian meme, I plead guilty.

Regarding the open discussion “until a consensus forms around the best truth that can be extracted from the available evidence”, - this amounts to the court of public opinion. This is a court that for all intents and purposes, will not matter come January 30th.

JREF has come to a consensus of innocence, as has IIP. TJMK and PMF have come to a consensus of guilt. There is no common ground or any agreement on any of the evidence (circumstantial or forensic) presented between these divergent courts of public opinion.

It is possible for a person to have read the translated primary court documents and have come to an opinion of guilt, without hating, without degrading, without being irrational, and without having a pony in this race. It is also possible for a person to be devoid of arrogance, and to admit that he or she is not completely sure of this stance. Therefore, I rely on my meme and not on the opinions of strangers on a forum. If they are truly innocent, I hope the wisdom of the court in Florence judges it to be so. If they are truly guilty, then I hope that this is the judgement with punishment to follow.

The reason I posted on JREF is because my curiosity got the best of me. I wanted to know whether there were people who believed in Amanda's and Raffaele's innocence dispassionately, but who were also open to the possibility of their guilt. It appears that the answer would be, no. (But thanks Planigale – your response was at least dispassionate and genuine).

You can only come to your own conclusions LBR.
There's so many items for you to determine what you think.

I think Hellman said it most intelligently that no one will know who committed the crime except for the three accused, and maybe others who were not caught.

Some see the footprint as Rudys, some look at the blob and see it as Raffaele's, some see a blob that doesn't hold up in court as solid evidence.

There seems to be a thousand more items and topics.

I started out thinking they were guilty, in 2007. Now after C&V and the years gone by I tend to see the prosecution and puppets all siding together, and lying on the stand at times and in front of cameras,a s in Migninis case on the interrogation Budget excuse for not recording the interrogation for a few hours, yet they recorded about everything else for weeks.
Stefonani lying on the stand also was a fact that changed my outlook.

good luck with that..lol